Encrypted Text: Answers to your rogue questions

My favorite part of playing a rogue is the camaraderie that I can share with my fellow assassins. There's an amazing web of players that make up the rogue community, and they're willing to spend their time and energy to help other rogues out. Whether it's Antiarc and Aldriana's Shadowcraft or Ieatpaperbag's informational threads for combat and assassination, there's such a wealth of great information available for those who seek it. While our numbers may be few, the rogue community is still powerful.
If you have a question about your rogue that you just can't figure out, there's nothing wrong with asking for help. Elitist Jerks has a simple questions thread dedicated to quelling your uncertainties, and you can always consult a more senior rogue for advice and guidance. I regularly receive emails with questions from old rogues and new rogues alike. I've been seeing several messages with similar questions lately, and I think that the answers are worth delving into.
Should I go for my tier 11 four-piece bonus?
The short answer is yes, Deadly Scheme is worth wearing four pieces of our tier 11 set. The long answer is still yes, but with a caveat: Unless your guild is regularly killing Nefarian or Cho'gall, you're not going to be able to score four pieces of the set. You can buy the gloves, pants, and chest from the vendors for valor points (or get lucky against Argaloth), but the shoulders and helm of our set require tokens from the two end bosses of Bastion of Twilight and Blackwing Descent. Our two-piece bonus is also very strong, and you'll probably want to aim for that first, but you can't even get your four-piece without killing a difficult boss.
If you're in a guild that's killing Nefarian and Cho'gall on a regular basis, you can usually pick up your four-piece without too much trouble. In terms of using the new bonus, you should simply play your rotation as usual. Assassination rogues will easily be able to use one Envenom every 15 seconds, making sure they never waste the proc. If you're playing combat, just make sure that you unload your Eviscerate before the Deadly Scheme buff expires. Subtlety shouldn't have any issues with squeezing an Eviscerate in, as sub's combo point generation is quite rapid.
Tips for Blade Flurry usage
My biggest piece of advice for a combat rogue trying to maximize Blade Flurry is to drop Rupture from your rotation while BF is active. Since Rupture isn't replicated through BF, you're only applying the debuff to one target. You could Eviscerate instead, which is then replicated on both targets, dealing double damage. The rotation essentially collapses into an Eviscerate/Slice and Dice spam until there's no longer an additional nearby target for you to cleave.
When is subtlety viable?
There's a lot of talk about subtlety in the various rogue circles, and I know several rogues who would love for the spec to be more competitive in PvE. Right now, subtlety is behind both combat and assassination in terms of DPS, and it's also more complicated to play. The spec suffers huge penalties whenever you can't focus on a target for long periods of time, and it has the worst AoE damage of any rogue talent tree. Subtlety simple doesn't excel at anything, in terms of DPS, and that's why you won't see any rogues posting amazing World of Logs parses of their subtlety DPS.
The one thing sub does have going for it is survivability. It's almost impossible to kill a subtlety rogue, especially for a raid boss that doesn't know any better. Subtlety has seen some usage by high-end rogues on fights with heavy incoming damage, especially the Valiona and Theralion heroic encounter. Unless you're playing a rogue at the highest level, there's really no reason to keep subtlety around as a PvE build. Now, if you want to PvP, subtlety is more than potent. Just make sure that you spec back into combat or assassination if you want to be taken seriously in your raid.
What poisons should I use for Mutilate PvP?
While subtlety is my preferred PvP spec due to the abundance of utility and survivability talents, assassination builds are still pretty strong. After consulting with some of my rogue colleagues, the best poison mix for Mutilate in PvP is Instant/Deadly. You need to have access to Envenom to finish off a target that's being healed, which means Deadly Poison is required. The question is usually whether Wound Poison or Instant Poison is more effective on your main dagger. I find that the mix of the Improved Poisons mastery bonus, the Envenom buff, and Potent Poisons push Instant Poison's damage way ahead of Wound's. Since we're a DPS class, we're looking to maximize our DPS, and Instant/Deadly is the best way I've found to accomplish that.
Various questions about assassination's rotation
Let me start by saying that there's nothing wrong with using 4-point finishers as an assassination rogue. I've heard of rogues using Shiv or Sinister Strike to up their combo points to the perfect 5, but it's a significant DPS loss. As an assassination rogue, you only have to CP generators: Mutilate and Backstab. If you're stuck at 4 combo points, just use the finisher anyway. The reason is that combo points are worth a ton of damage, and wasting them is awful.
There's a great chart of "damage costs" on Elitist Jerks that goes over how much damage you lose when you make a mistake with your rotation. Generating too many combo points is right at the top of things not to do, and so you'll always want to keep that in mind. When you're trying to figure out what to do, it's almost always better to either Envenom early or to use a low combo point Rupture. Wasting a Mutilate or Backstab is incredibly costly, abuse your finishers instead.
Filed under: Rogue, (Rogue) Encrypted Text






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Khirsah Apr 20th 2011 1:31PM
What is the best throwing weapon poison to use as mutilate spec? For pvp, I usually use mind numbing because it helps with those casters that are trying to kite me. But what about for pve?
Chase Christian Apr 20th 2011 1:42PM
Deadly Poison is considered to be tops, and I find that it's pretty effective. On Magmaw, I actually deal far more DPS than usual by running out and spamming FoK with DP on the worms than I do beating up the boss.
Couvs Apr 20th 2011 1:44PM
@Khirsah:
currently there's only two epic quality pve thrown weapons (that I've seen). One's an extremely rare drop from pickpocketed junkboxes and the other is a raid trash drop in the Bastion of Twilight. I've never seen the one out of junkboxes and I've been picking pockets forever. The drop rate in BoT isn't too bad though. It's also bound on equip so you may even find it on the auction house, though it won't be cheap.
Nick Apr 20th 2011 1:44PM
Short answer: deadly.
Longer Answer: Instant on main, Deadly on off and thrown.
Now when you FoK you'll apply a dot to pack (a Dot which isn't subject to the AOE "cap") and through the talent "Vile Poisons" you'll hit for your instant poison on your main hand too.
Kole Apr 20th 2011 1:45PM
Mute pve I use MH - Instant, Off and Thrown - Deadly
Khirsah Apr 20th 2011 1:46PM
Cool. Thanks. And you think mind numbing is ok for pvp? It just seems that most of the time, if I'm throwing at all, it is at a frost mage that just blinked away from me.
Jizul Apr 20th 2011 1:49PM
You want deadly poison on your thrown weapon for pve. If you need a slow put one point into deadly brew.
thebitterfig Apr 20th 2011 9:16PM
The point of deadly on the throwning weapon seems largely, to me, to be because you'll be able to use it to keep DP stacked in AoE situations, eventually allowing the DP to proc IP faster than IP would on its own. End result: glorious mastery-boosted damage, and a PvE no-brainer.
On the other hand, I don't see the point of it for PvP, unless you're doing some serious mass AoE, which probably isn't that common. To that end, if you find you're getting good mileage out of Mind Numbing and it helps you kill casters - go with that.
Couvs Apr 20th 2011 1:45PM
oy ignore that last comment, I misread the question >_
Kole Apr 20th 2011 1:53PM
...and now for my question. I am relatively new to the Rogue class. I don't really PVP (blasphemy I know) so this will only be directed to PVE.
Are our potential epic dps numbers mostly derived from our gear? Because I am doing everything EJ says to do as far as rotation, not wasting combo points, etc...and yet my dps is embarrassing. I think the best in a heroic I've gotten so far was around 6k (yet I have been in a heroic on a different toon and have seen rogues over 15k...who I am assuming was way better geared at the least.)
So I chalk it up to A) inexperience and B) gear. What part does the gear play with our dps?
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/icecrown/betr%C3%BCger/simple
Rapskallion Apr 20th 2011 2:33PM
When I Simcraft your setup the dps output is says you can reach is around 12.5k. If you are only hitting 6k there is something wrong. Granted that is will full raid buffs on a five minute fight.
Even if I scale that back to a 150 second fight with zero buffs or debuffs it comes out to 7.6k which is closer to the environment you'll see in a five man.
roshomon Apr 20th 2011 2:37PM
@Kole
The EJ DPS models are based off of gear. But that doesn't mean there isn't a learning curve. Gear has alot to do with it, but gear upgrades are alway incremental and should be THAT big of a step.
Aside from various other factors that may inhibit dps (lag, debuffs) I would say practice. I use an addon called 'Mutilate' as a rotation helper. It gives a heads up on what I should do next.
Check out your weapons. If you have the emblems, I'd say pick up the 1.40 dagger from the vendor and use that as your offhand.
Also get used to knowing when to pool energy, blow cooldowns etc. Best advice, spend some time at a training dummy.
Lemons Apr 20th 2011 2:37PM
Replace that OH dagger with a faster one (you can easily get Throat Slasher from the jp vendor) and you should see a significant uptick in dps.
Rapskallion Apr 20th 2011 2:39PM
WTB Edit Button
Basically, what I'm saying is for your gear, with limited buffs (which rogues are very dependent on), and short fights... you're not doing horrible. There may be some tightening up of the "rotation" or better use/timing of your CDs and Vanish (for additional overkill buff) that would help.
You could do yourself a favor by reforging all that horribad Crit into more Hit (get to 17%) and then Mastery. I'd say keep trucking along picking up gear where you can and do your best with what you have.
Holycow Apr 20th 2011 2:52PM
On my rogue, I was having dps issues as well, with a pair of 346 daggers equipped. I dropped the offhand to a 333 with a faster speed (1.40 vs. 1.60 i think) and my numbers shot back up. Like Rosh said, there's a 1.4 offhand available from the JP vendor, so get that when you can. The above poison combination with a slower main hand and fast offhand means i don't drop under 8k on boss fights, and that goes up every time i get another upgrade. Good luck! :)
Kole Apr 20th 2011 2:59PM
Thank you all! Yes, getting new gear is a priority for sure. Of course being a pure dps class means crap wait times...but eventually I'll get in.
I am not sure why my armory doesn't show it, but most of my current gear has been reforged and I am actually at the spell/reg hit caps...
I also need to finish some zones/gain rep for the shoulder and head enchants...
I'm off to go d/l an addon, smack around a dummy and wait in a queue...thanks again everyone!
jessenewcomer Apr 20th 2011 3:51PM
check out http://shadowcraft.mmo-mumble.com to see what to fix with gems/reforging
Stilhelm Apr 20th 2011 7:35PM
Keep in mind some enchants are ridiculously cheap while people are leveling enchanting. +50 hit on bracers and +35 agi on boots are good ones to look for, can sometimes find them under 10g. Since you won't be going with Landslide for a while, you should put Hurricane on your 346 weapons.
Don't forget to use Vendetta on bosses, I usually wait until deadly poison is stacked to 5. I don't use rupture on trash unless it has over 1M hp. On trash, you can toss in a FoK every so often to stack up deadly on the other targets to reduce ramp-up time when switching targets. If there are only 2 or 3, though, don't bother, just switch immediately to the highest-health target after an Envenom when your target is getting low.
Puntable Apr 21st 2011 10:33AM
It sounds like you are doing heroics and not raiding yet. The poison hit cap for heroics is 6%. Don't forget to factor in the Precision talent. A lot of Rogues make the mistake of going WAY over the hit cap for heroics. This is a DPS loss.
Jizul Apr 20th 2011 2:35PM
Gearing up will have a pretty huge impact on your dps. I would focus on replacing all those greens and upgrading your trinkets (aim for Tia's Grace from Lost City and Key to the Endless Chamber from Stonecore) and getting a 1.4 dagger for your off-hand (again in Stonecore or Lost City or there is one available for 950 justice points).