Shifting Perspectives: Tanks, bribes, and player behavior, part 2

This week we return for the conclusion of our series examining the likely impact of the new Call to Arms system debuting in patch 4.1. If you're looking for last week's article, you'll find that here: Shifting Perspectives: Tanks, bribes, and player behavior.
To summarize the observations and argument of the first article as quickly as possible, Cataclysm returned players to the difficulty of The Burning Crusade instancing model without the benefits that tanks gained from building a reputation as competent players -- namely, the reasonable expectation that groups would cooperate with kill orders and any requests for crowd control. The dungeon finder, arguably a tool better suited to the ease and speed of Wrath of the Lich King heroics, has left tanks in an unfortunate position: They now attempt to lead groups through more difficult content with the unreliable vote kick as their sole defense against obstreperous players. That DPS queue times have soared under the present circumstances shouldn't arrive as a shock.
I'm going to try to explain why Call to Arms may very well result in more tanks queueing for 5-mans through the dungeon finder and who we're likely to see if and/or when this happens.
The most pertinent observation to be made here is that players aren't as easily separated into "tanks," "DPS," and "healers" as you might think. At any given moment, yes -- you have to be playing one of the three. But as the expansion advances, more and more people will have multiple geared toons at 85, and with the Call to Arms reward bag being BoA, they are theoretically more likely to to run a tank character through the dungeon finder if the potential rewards appeal to them. As of now, the bag's contents are a chunk of gold, randomly generated flasks, and a small chance at 5-man dungeon mount drops.
This article is written with two assumptions that I think are pretty reasonable: that most players have a designated main, and that they care the most about sending desirable rewards to this character over others. Most people are only interested in putting titles, mounts, and expensive/prestigious items on one toon at the most, given the amount of effort involved.
So who's out there tanking right now, anyway?
For the purpose of this argument, I think the game's tanks and potential tanks can be classified as follows:
- Raiding Professionals Main-spec tanks and off tanks in current raiding content. Their gear is often better than that of the general population, and they can usually be counted on to know the 5-man fights. For most people in this category, this is their main.
- Professionals Main-spec tanks in 5-man content. For whatever reason, they're not raiding, and the quality of their gear is necessarily restricted to badge and crafted pieces (granting them less margin for error with threat versus more geared DPS), but they know the 5-man fights. For most people in this category, this is their main.
- Apprentices Beginner to intermediate tanks still learning the dungeons, mobs, and pulls (and developing the sixth sense necessary to anticipate when that mage jumping around in the back is going to blunder into a patrol). This may or may not be a main character and/or reroll.
- Mercenaries Off-spec tanks. These are druid, warrior, paladin, and death knight players who have a DPS or healing main spec and reserve their secondary spec for tanking rather than PvP. May or may not be a main, and their experience with tanking runs the gamut from Apprentice to Raiding Professional/Professional level.
- Opportunists Just what the word implies -- players who tank in order to take advantage of some external incentive, not because they're particularly enamored of the role. Nowadays, as our commenter Snuzzle observed, the only reward for tanking is an instant queue. Of the five types of tank here, most likely to be an alt.
Why do any of these folks queue through the dungeon finder now?
- Raiding Professionals Beats the hell out of me. If you're in a raiding guild with competent DPS and healers, you're not likely to be pugging through the dungeon finder; the hassle just ain't worth it. It's for this reason that the maxim, "There isn't a shortage of tanks. There is a shortage of tanks willing to tank PuGs" is so commonly repeated on the Tanking forums to DPS exasperation over queue times.
- Professionals Valor points and little else. Like a Raiding Professional, if you're a Professional-level tank and you're guilded, there is no real incentive to run with a dungeon finder group unless you count masochism. Actually, as someone who's spent most of her in-game time alternating between the Raiding Professional and Professional categories, there is even less incentive to queue as a Professional because you run the risk of getting DPS who massively outgear you. Tanking for people who have a significant gear advantage over you is a slum and always has been.
- Apprentices The need to get experience with a wide variety of groups and dungeons. Naturally, beginner and intermediate tanks capitalize on the rapidity of tank queue times in order to do this.
- Mercenaries A main-spec DPS player is mostly going to pick the tank option to avoid the astronomical DPS queue time if he's not otherwise piggybacking runs off a guild tank.
- Opportunists Ditto, assuming that the toon is guilded.
I would argue that the people most likely to be experienced tanks (the Raiders, Professionals, and sometimes Mercenaries) are less likely to be attracted to present Call to Arms rewards (gold, flasks, and mounts) because these toons are largely mains with no real need for them. One of the great attractions of the tanking role is the ability to solo lesser content, and if you're at all interested in getting dungeon mounts on a tank main, you've had ample opportunity to do this already. More importantly, Call to Arms would also require these folks to queue randomly rather than with their guildies, and that's not an attractive prospect to anyone concerned. Guilds resent the loss of a convenient tank, and tanks resent having to take their chances through the dungeon finder.
To the extent that Call to Arms rewards are attractive, I think they're largely a draw to players who have rerolled a tank class and are "building" a new main or who want to send the BoA reward bags to their main from a tanking alt (e.g., if you're a priest without the ability to solo, say, heroic Utgarde Pinnacle for the Blue Proto-Drake you want but you've got a warrior tank alt). But in an odd way, Call to Arms is kind of a raw deal to a DPS main attempting to do this. Not only does these people still have to do their weekly dungeon runs on their mains for valor points, but they're now tasked with an extra set of runs on a tank alt under the worst possible circumstances -- a random PuG.
I have to conclude that Call to Arms, at least in its present form, doesn't convince existing tanks to pug as much as it attempts to add tanks to the population in the form of alts. So how is this going to work out in practice? Let's see what the DPS queue times look like in a few months.
Should we restrict the dungeon finder to same-server groups only?
This option was suggested frequently in the comments to last week's article. I think players are right to say that this should be an option, but limiting the dungeon finder only to your own realm wouldn't necessarily do much to address queue times on smaller servers. However, I would absolutely jump at the chance to queue for server-only groups. Being able to return to the reputation-driven tanking days of BC without having to spend the time to put a group together would be pretty neat.
Stray observations
- I thought Neirin's comment here was pretty cogent.
- One of the realities drilled into me over recent weeks tanking and healing the new Zul'Gurub and Zul'Aman on the PTR is that how demoralizing and humiliating it is to tank for uncooperative groups. I say this as someone who is normally very "up" on PuGs and generally enjoys the dungeon finder and the people I meet there -- but all it takes is one asshat to eighty-six a run.
- I think commenters are largely correct that vote kick is, at best, a clumsy tool for enforcing good behavior through the dungeon finder.
Shifting Perspectives helps you gear your bear druid at 85, tempts you with weapons, trinkets and relics for bears, then shows you what to do with it all in Feral Druid Tanking 101. We'll also help you gear your resto druid.
Filed under: Druid, Paladin, Warrior, Analysis / Opinion, (Druid) Shifting Perspectives, Death Knight
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Reader Comments (Page 3 of 6)
Grak Apr 21st 2011 6:08AM
The problem with this whole "You can still form groups the old way by finding people in Trade" alternative is that in order for it to atually be a viable alternative, you need to have a sizable portion of the community already doing that.
Sure the facility to use public channels to form groups is still there, but no one does it. Theres no point for a non-tank to go to Trade and start asking for "LF tank/healer and some dps for random hc" because if no one is even really looking for group members there in the first place, its not going to work. Same reason the raid browser failed; no one actually used it, so no one used it.
When I've been at the AH I've watched some poor bastard of a dps sit in Trade begging for a tank or healer for a random, and everytime he gets ignored. As much as we like to say "Do it the old fashioned way if you dont like LFG!" the fact is if no one else is doing that, then its not a viable option.
benjaminguth Apr 20th 2011 9:41AM
That said, I'd love to return to server only dungeons. There are countless times where I find myself saying at the end of a good run: "Great run, thanks all, see ya later," and realizing that I actually won't be seeing any of them again which is a little depressing.
jarch3r Apr 20th 2011 11:04AM
Precisely. We're forced to make friends with people and then we're torn away from them. Leads to social aspect = gone
Squeaksbcod Apr 20th 2011 9:52AM
The new call to arms was an ok idea on paper, but in practice it just has too many flaws. It is sorta like trying a new bandage on an oozing wound rather than looking for what is making the damn thing ooze in the first place. This should have been once piece of a much larger pie. Personally I would rather a system that strives to give tanks more incentive but rewards everyone equally rather than this only reward the tanks system, but ohh well.
And don't say there is nothing that Blizz can do, there are plenty of ideas floating around out there that can make the que better for everyone.
As for the vote kick. Lately I have been thinking that maybe we need a bifurcate group option. If a group is not getting along an option to split off into two groups, picking who goes where then each queing up again might help. It could really help in instance where vote kick is unlikely to help as people have allies in the group. Letting the two badies from the same guild stay together in one group, and the other three stay in another might be something that could work well. It might give us a better way to get out of groups we do not like and then no one has to fully start over.
billg Apr 20th 2011 10:18AM
"Personally I would rather a system that strives to give tanks more incentive but rewards everyone equally"
How can you give incentive without using some kind of reward? And if you reward everybody equally then you remove any incentive of choosing one role over another, so whilst I have some sympathy with where you're coming from, I think your preference contradicts itself.
Whilst it might not correct the queue times in and of itself, at least the proposed Call To Arms essentially conforms to the basic laws of supply and demand.
Squeaksbcod Apr 20th 2011 10:53AM
billg
Actually no they are not the same.
Rewarding people the same means (from where I am comeing from) that you get X item for doing Y. Right now everyone gets X number of points for doing a random. However; someone who has a full set of gear better than what they can purchase with their points has less incentive run than someone for who all the gear is an upgrade. Perhaps saying that they view the points as more valuble than the well geared person. Another example could be a recipe. If X recipe has a chance to drop in Y instance, everyone has an equal chance to get it as a reward, but it certainly is going to be more attractive to someone who has the profession and can actually use, so they likely have much more incentive to grind for it than someone who just gets to vendor it.
So with the tank shortage, I would look for ways to offer rewards to everyone, but for whatever reason are more desirable to a tank. The Satchel of Helpful goods might be a good way to help with this. Set it up that everyone gets the Satchel, it has a chance to drop various things for various classes including some rare purples. Then, make some/one of the purples very attractive to tanks. Everyone still gets the reward, and a melee DPS might still be able to use the purple as an upgrade, so the rewards are as equal as random can be. But with some luck and balance the Tanks will hopefully have more incentive to run the random as the drops are just much more useful to them.
It does not have to be gear, it could maybe be a special new flask that you can only get from randoms. Everyone can get the item, for some it will be an ok item and get used, others will vendor it, but if it is good for tanks and that is the only source Tanks might be more inclined to run more often as it is more useful to them.
Or to put it really shorter put things in random heroics that Tanks really want. Give everyone the same chance to get it so the reward is the same, but since Tanks actively want the item, with some luck they will run more often to get said item they want.
Not everyone wants mounts. Every Tank that answers the CTA will get the same reward and chance for a mount, but how much of an incentive it is to run the CTA will very a fair amount form one tank to another. For some it will be a huge incentive, for some, not one at all. Same reward, different incentive.
I hope that makes a little more sense.
Eirik Apr 20th 2011 3:52PM
If the random goody bag holds something unique AND helpful specifically to tanking...
If it is better than other options available, it becomes "required".
If not, it becomes "useless".
That is, "serious raiders" will badmouth a tank who (for instance) uses the normal Steelskin flask, instead of the Steelskin+1 flask you get from the PUG goody bag. Or badmouth you for using the Steelskin-1 flask you get from the PUG goody bag instead of the standard one.
Or, they'll just give you the normal Steelskin flask and you never use said Steelskin-1 flask.
matt Apr 20th 2011 9:53AM
I am a main spec healing Druid who raids regularly in a group with no rogues or ferals. As such I have developed a fairly solid bear set. I will queue as tank for my random ONLY if I am in a full guild group, period. I am not be a GREAT tank, but I have the gear and know the fights. My guildies will put up with a mistake or 2 without complaint since we saved 30 minutes but having me tank. Random LFD puggers did not get that benefit and have no tolerance for tanking mistakes.
Good folks don't go to LFD because its full of asshats and they have freinds and guildies that they like to group with. Folks with social problems (asshats) tend not to have friends and guildies to run with. LFD is self-selecting for asshats, and the presence of asshats is self-reinforcing. The LFD CtA bags will not change this at all, some of the asshats will re-spec tank, that's all.
Plastic Rat Apr 20th 2011 12:21PM
New category: Those of us who play at odd hours and though we have great guildies, don't get to play with them during the week. So we're left at the mercy of the RDF. God help us.
Redielin Apr 20th 2011 8:32PM
They need to make a 5-star system where you rate players after the run is complete. Higher-rated players would get first dibs on any and all dungeon queues. So the more well-behaved you are, the higher your rating would be and the shorter your queue time.
Let players see their ratings, and how people voted, and even perhaps let players make comments. Send all this in the mail instead of doing it at the end of the instance to avoid potential drama. Oh, and if you leave early you don't get to vote.
The reputation you could build back in BC was really pretty awesome and I wouldn't mind going back to that kind of system, but if you think things are bad for DPS now, just remember that back in BC I was a rogue and I was happy if I got a 5 man group after 2 HOURS in the LFG/trade.
No matter how much DPS qq about the current system, the LFD tool is light-years ahead of the BC system and all this adjusting is done for their benefit. On the whole "tanks and healers will get mounts before me" DPS need to suck it up and realize they are not in demand and they are getting a reward - shorter queue times.
Japith Apr 20th 2011 10:02AM
I fall into the raid tank category. I have no need to ever run a pure random, since guild members typically request my services about as soon as I log in. I suspect that this is the case for most competent tanks. The only reason I hit the DF tool is to remind myself of how bad it is. There have been plenty of good players though; more than bad in my experience, but just a single nasty DPS can ruin it and prevent me from hitting that DF button for another week. The bottom line is that most tanks simply don't need to use it, so there will always be a long wait for DPS.
poilbrun Apr 20th 2011 10:02AM
What does "to eighty-six a run" means? I get the gist that it's to ruin the run, but that's an expression I never heard...
The only thing that the article fails to mention is that the CtA feature will, at least at first, increase the numbers of "bad" tanks in the queues, therefore increasing the frustration of other players. By bad tanks, I mean those who queue just to get the insta-queue then try to kick someone since they can't really tank (who are really the worst ones), undergeared or unexperienced tanks. There's nothing wrong with being undergeared or unexperienced, everyone has to start somewhere, but when you add it all up, it will create a bad combination: DPS are already cranky due to queue times, the tank is not very good AND he gets more than the DPS out of the run. For these tanks, while the bag will be added incentive, it will also be added pressure.
Grak Apr 20th 2011 10:31AM
Yahoo answers tells us:
To remove, end usage, or take something out or away. Despite ALL other posts suggestion the origion of this phrase there is only one true answer:
Chumley's, a famous and OLD New York speakeasy, is located at 86 Bedford St. During Prohibition, an enterance through an interior adjoing courtyard was used, as it provided privacy and discretion for customers.
As was (and is) a New York tradition, the cops were on the payroll of the bar and would give a ring to the bar that they were coming for a raid. The bartender would then give the command "86 everybody!", which meant that everyone should hightail it out the 86 Bedford enterance because the cops were coming in through the courtyard door."86 that light"
Mike bare Apr 21st 2011 8:39PM
86 is a term to mean throw out, unwanted. I used to be a cook and we would 86 the baked potatoes at the end of the night. And if a bouncer didn't like your attitude in the bar, he 86'd you.
Cale Apr 20th 2011 10:09AM
Good read, thanks. I like your writing and I don't even have a druid anywhere in my alt list. /dodges stones. I'm reminded of Rich Malloy's article about defining playstyles from last year:
http://wow.joystiq.com/2010/08/31/defining-playstyles-beyond-casual-vs-hardcore/
Anyway, more on topic - I just wanted to mention a good idea regarding tools for engendering good behavior in pugs. At one point, a WoW Insider commenter suggested a system where you could up-vote other characters in a pug, a kind of player driven reputation. Though there are a lot of logistical problems with such a system, instituting a way for the community to positively reinforce good behavior would be a strong addition to the game and provide another tool to promote a positive pug experience.
datgrl Apr 20th 2011 11:55AM
"there is even less incentive to queue as a Professional because you run the risk of getting DPS who massively outgear you."
I'm not sure I understand this comment. If a Raiding Professional DPS has Raid level gear, would they really be queuing using the Dungeon finder? I'd think that a Professional level DPS and tank would be geared about the same. Maybe I misunderstood.
Eros Apr 20th 2011 1:27PM
A professional is one that gears mostly through 5 mans. While a raiding professional gets gear from raids.
Joe Apr 20th 2011 10:27AM
The Daily Blink pretty concisely covered the conflict between what we hope we'll get and what we'll really get from A Call To Arms:
http://www.thedailyblink.com/2011/04/tragedy-of-the-commons/
Beetle Apr 20th 2011 10:31AM
A very well written perspective.
As to your analysis, I would fall under the 'professional tank'. I don't raid, because simply put, I have no interest in it.
So I spend my life dwelling 5 man heroic dungeons. I've got all the gear I need (drops-rep-crafted).
The CTA is not an incentive at all to get me to tank in the LFD.
When I use the LFD tool, I always do so with my brother and/or a friend (DPS). Why on earth would I queue solo?
Yes, the CTA system will introduce a lot of new players to the tanking game, players with access to an offspec. Remember these are the same people who have access to the offspec, but are not using it. Because they don't like to tank.
So now you will get these people into your group as a tank. More tanks with DPS gear anyone? You thought it was bad before? Wait and see ... The 'good' tanks, the 'professionals' ... they are already out there, tanking with/for their friends/guilds.
When patch 4.1 hits, they'll be busy with the new troll dungeons. As for that void? The shortage of tanks? That will be filled with people who don't like to tank, but want fast queues and a goodiebag.
lownwolf Apr 20th 2011 10:36AM
I would consider myself part of your "raiding professional" category, and I am my guilds Main Tank. I agree with everything you say, and no promise of a low drop rate at a mount is going to make me queue randoms. I would rather sit around until more guildies come on than deal with the possibility of a bad group.
Every so often I give it a try again, and i am instantly reminded why that was a poor decision. The other night was one of those nights. H-tol'vir, DK keeps running ahead and having his pet charge into every pack. The healer had 2 epics (i always check their gear first) and we should have been throwing down at least 1 cc. When I tried to talk to the DK and tell him to stop pulling/charging in, his response was, "Oh you're one of those f_g tanks." After trying to reason with him, i tried to kick him but it said he couldn't be kicked for 5 more minutes. I felt bad for the rest of the group, but i decided to drop group.
Anyway, long story a lot longer than it should be, the vote kick tool needs to be changed somehow, or maybe I just don't understand the full limitations of it. But if someone like that DK is griefing my group, i should be able to get rid of them, no limitations.