Officers' Quarters: Wait-listing is the hardest part

As interest in WoW declines and guilds finds themselves once again facing six months or more of raiding the same content, player retention is going to become a huge issue for officers. For raiding guilds, the hardest players to retain are those on the fringes of your team, the extra three to five people who are most often asked to sit out and be "waitlisted" or put on "standby." These terms are really just euphemisms for the same thing: sitting on the bench.
This week, one officer asks how to keep these players from moving on to other guilds.
Hi Scott,
I'm an officer in a well established 25 man guild. Throughout the 2+ years we've been raiding, we've always had issues with recruiting beyond that 25th player. Whenever we pick someone up, it always seems that someone else drops out, and we're back to relying on every last player in our raid to show up, or else we're running with a man down or scrambling to get a new recruit or a casual guild member in.
There have been several times where we did have 29 or 30 people online for raid nights, usually after another guild has collapsed and we pick up a few extra recruits at the same time. However, it always seems to never last.
I know that at least part of the problem is that we tend to sit our "worst" players during progression fights, which is itself a vicious cycle (they don't get experience or gear, and when we do give them a shot they are unprepared). The other officers in the guild have been raiding since vanilla and swear that that's how the waitlist has always been implemented, but I usually argue that people are no longer stuck in a guild. People aren't going to wait in the wings for weeks for a shot at a raid spot, they'll disappear after a week and apply to the multitude of other guilds out there.Hi, Voltage. Having players on permanent waitlist/standby is swiftly becoming a thing of the past. Serious players won't stand for it, and I can't say I blame them. The only real exception to this is players who are mostly casual but don't mind filling in when a raid falls short -- but that's not really a good solution if you're a progression-oriented guild.
So, we have this revolving door effect on our 23rd-27th raiders. Whenever we get more than 25 online, I know it will only be a week before we are again crossing our fingers and hoping that everyone shows up. We, as a guild, are tired of this and are beginning to recruit with a waitlist in mind. We know there are guilds out there who run with 30 raiders, but we don't know how they manage that. How do you fairly run a waitlist so that certain members don't feel that they are being treated unfairly? Should we be rotating throughout the night on a boss per boss basis? Or would it be better to say that these people have the night off at the start? Should we be looking only to rotate dps or should we have an extra tank and an extra healer too? Also, are there any tools you know of to help with managing all of this?
I know that's a lot to ask, but I appreciate your help with this situation.
Thanks,
Voltage
Anyone who wants to raid and shows up to raid isn't going to be content sitting on the sidelines week after week. The current environment, where many guilds are struggling to field a full team, is rich with opportunities for those seeking more raid time.
I would also question how you define which raiders are the "worst," who makes that decision, and how that information is conveyed to these players. I certainly wouldn't stick around very long if my raid leader told me I wasn't good enough to raid with them unless they were desperate for a warm body.
Certainly there are players in every guild who are better than others, but everyone on your roster whom the officers have approved for raiding should be competent enough to get the job done. At the very least, they should show enough promise that with help and practice they can perform at a competitive level. Otherwise, why bother inviting them at all?
If the matter is one of gear, then sitting them out, as you correctly state, is only making the problem worse. Fortunately, patch 4.1 will solve some of that problem with the epic gear in Zul'Gurub and Zul'Aman.
Here are some tips for solving the waitlist issue:
1. Reward players for sitting out. Players who don't receive a slot, for whatever reason, shouldn't feel like their time is completely wasted. Three or four hours is a big chunk of someone's day to spend twiddling their thumbs with nothing to show for it. They should earn DKP or some other future loot consideration if they are willing to remain online and available during the raid.
2. Allow standby players to pursue other activities. Allow them to run dungeons, PvP, or do daily quests while they wait, with the understanding that they could get called in at any time and must be ready to raid immediately if they're needed.
3. Rotate by boss or difficulty. If you ask your players to identify which bosses they still need loot from, you can swap players in and out (provided all the appropriate roles are covered). It helps to organize this ahead of time, but it can be done simply by asking prior to each boss who does and doesn't need loot. That will not only prevent gear from being sharded, it will also keep people from getting too bored on the bench or burned out from constant raiding.
Of course, if you're newly downing hard mode bosses, it's likely that everyone will need loot from every boss, so this method does have its limitations. For most guilds at this point in the expansion, however, there are certain bosses they will attempt do in hard mode and others they will leave on normal mode for now. Rotating undergeared players out for hard bosses and in for normal bosses is another possible way to keep everyone involved.
4. Rotate by night. Another way to prevent burnout is to identify which nights certain players can have "off." Just ask them to log in at the start of the raid to make sure they aren't needed. If they feel comfortable, you can also ask them to be "on call" by providing a phone number or instant messenger ID.
Keep track of who recently took a break and who hasn't gotten one in a long time to figure out who should be next. Missing a raid for personal reasons should put a player at the end of this line. Tanks and healers in particular will enjoy being able to take a breather from their responsibilities now and then. If you can spare them, they should get first dibs on this kind of break.
By giving players a night off now and then, your extra raiders become a resource rather than a burden.
5. Encourage off specs. It's a lot easier to accommodate all this swapping if your hybrid classes are willing and able to perform another role when asked. Finding raiders who are willing to swap roles is a topic for a whole other column, but one key is to make it as painless as possible to obtain off-spec loot in your loot system. If nothing else, Blizzard's new Call to Arms rewards may motivate DPSers to give these other roles a shot.
6. Don't create a de facto caste system among raiders. If you create a system where certain raiders are clearly considered inferior to others, then those on the bottom rung of your society will most likely either accept their place and stop trying to be as good as the others on the team or get tired of the untouchable routine and quit. Either outcome is bad for your raid team.
7. Player retention goes beyond raiding opportunities. When new players join, make sure that officers and other guild members help them to feel included in the community. Invite them to dungeon runs or rated battlegrounds. Engage them in conversation. Offer to help them gear up or learn an encounter. Too often, new players are considered to be barely competent until proven otherwise, or, worse, ticking time bombs of drama that no longstanding member wants to approach. If your guild often behaves this way, the officers need to break down these prejudices by example.
Incorporating new, unproven players into your raids can be stressful. Veteran players may question your decisions at times. The only way for raiding guilds to survive in the long term, and through this current content lull, is by a raid leader's willingness to take chances on new recruits. It's inevitable: Some of the players you're counting on right now will eventually quit the guild or the game. If you don't have people to replace them, you're flirting with disaster. All it takes is a few bad weeks to drive your raiders away in droves. Don't believe me? Well, I've seen it happen.
Protect your guild by treating all your raiders with courtesy and respect. Inexperienced, undergeared raiders help no one, so get everyone involved as often as you can. Your "bench" players may surprise you!
How does your guild handle this issue?
/salute
Filed under: Officers' Quarters (Guild Leadership)






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 3)
vinniedcleaner Apr 25th 2011 9:13AM
Excellent article.... It should be required reading for EVERY raid guild out there. I lost my desire for raiding back during kara when I was waitlisted every week by the guild I was in (Chicken on Rice/Dark Iron-H) even when I signed up before other people (that was one of their rules at the time, first ot sign up, first to get a raid spot)
Scard Apr 25th 2011 10:33AM
From my experience, this method (first to sign up, first to get a raid spot) is a poor way to determine who's in and who's out of a raid. Whether it's signing up on the guild website or through the in-game calendar, it favors those who log in more frequently or those who log in at similar times to whomever is setting up the sign-ups.
Thalen Apr 25th 2011 11:19AM
The game has changed a lot...even at point Kara was relevant, the tide had already turned.
Gone are the days when people wanted to be part of a *guild*, as opposed to part of a raid. I remember the days when we'd have 40 people in a raid, and 15 or more people sitting at the entrance hoping to get a chance to join in. That was 5 days a week, and it was consistent.
These days it seems like people hop online at raid time, and log out as soon as invites are over.
I guess by lowering the bar to raiding, Blizz has raised the expectations of inclusion in players. That combined with the 'Me generation' attitudes seems to send a lot of players running away as soon as they feel like they're in any danger of sitting out.
dengarsw Apr 25th 2011 11:50AM
Gotta agree with Thalen. Guilds tend to be more like loot machines than communities. I even feel like it came across in the original post, in that the biggest concern was not fielding enough for raids. For example, my guild's had problems getting enough interest for RBGs. The problem wasn't lacking bodies, it was lacking enthusiasm for an area of the game. We still have people, but interests vary, so at the very least, at the end of the day, we got some fun folks to be around. We just vary activities, and when we can lure a pve person into a pvp situation, we know we have a chance at converting someone ;P
When you look at your guild as simply a way to get loot, you run into "not enough bodies." problem. If you run a guild as a community, you can increase your chances of recruiting for activities from within your own ranks, rather than from random guild hoppers shopping for whoever can give them the most perks in the least amount of time ;P
Hal Apr 25th 2011 12:05PM
I think the real culprit behind this has been the ease of "catching up" in gear via badges (and now, points).
Way back in the day, you had to have the gear to raid, and the only way to get it was via raiding. If you were to drop your guild and join into a more progressed guild, you would essentially be asking this group to get you geared up in earlier content so you could help them with the later content. This really incentivized sticking with your current group; even if you were surrounded by idiots who were having trouble, they already bought into the prospect of helping to gear you up.
Once you could get gear via badges, though, you didn't need a raiding guild to help you become competently geared for new content. If your guild wasn't cutting the mustard in your current raid, find another one; even if you don't get geared running with that guild, you can always just run heroics until your eyes bleed.
Don't get me wrong, I think being able to gear up through non-raiding means was a very good thing for the game. It did a lot to make the game more accessible to new players, to novice raiders, and to alts. But it definitely changed the nature of guild/raid culture.
Chokaa Apr 25th 2011 1:28PM
@Thalen
I think a much larger part of that is simply life and age happening to the raiders. I too remember when we would hav 50-70 people, all online until the very end of the raid. That was also almost 6 years ago. Before I was married. Before I had a career. Before I had a house of my own. Hell, I was still in college! When my options are between waiting around not doing anything hoping to get a raid invite or hangin with my wife, or fixing something in the house that needs it, or a myriad of other things that are all better than literally doing nothing - do you see where I'm going? I don't think its fair to call it selfishness when: I app to and get accepted to a raiding guild; then get benched, then log off to do other things, and hope for an invite on the next night's raid.
amclaughlin99 Apr 25th 2011 2:22PM
@chokka and everyone else.
I think you hit a lot of peoples problems right on. For those of us who do have a lot going on in RL, it gets hard to raid period. And to then be benched during those times that you have set aside, it makes it even worse. In my case, I want to be able to raid, but i just cant find raid times on my server that work well for me. And puging is out of the question because everyone expects you to be uber geared, and to have cleared all the fights prior. So even in the pug community, its that same nasty circle.
raven.quiet.storm Apr 25th 2011 2:52PM
@Thalen
Its not just a me-first attitude, people are spending up to $15 a month to play, to spend that month not achieving anything or working towards a goal that they want to, specifically joined a guild to do, and then use professions or other work to help the guild when the guild needs it... that is ridiculous.
I am facing this problem right now because we had a bunch of people quit (we were 25-man now we fill one 10 man), then some of the higher up raiders decided not to show up anymore, so we have a bunch of old players a bunch of new players and the core raid group still plays favorites with their friends (a mage didn't show up for a month and a half, I made every raid, and he got an item I had been working for since I started raiding, surprise we haven't seen him since again... and he plays a better spec with better gear and gets worse dps).
In short, if we are expected to work and give to the guild, and we are paying money to play this game specifically to progress on content, and we have to spend nights flying around in SW because you like your friend better than us, WHY ARE WE IN YOUR GUILD? You at that point obviously don't consider us guild mates but instead think we are there for you to use and abuse when you feel like it...
Toggle Apr 25th 2011 10:24PM
I have to wonder how many people here are complaining about the actions of those they don't see fit to include while they merrily go raiding as part of the core every week.
Redielin Apr 25th 2011 9:49AM
yes we've been struggling with this as well, especially this current tier.
There's definitely a balance that you need to achieve. I think it is especially difficult in a 10 man guild like ours to maintain a waitlist, because it is so hard to bring in someone who does not know the fight. Sure, folks on the waitlist get bored or feel left out, but by the same token, it does no one any good to spend all your raid time for the week wiping to farm bosses because you brought in too many new folks who don't know the fights.
Rewarding folks for being available is probably the biggest thing. I know that's what helped me stick around back when I was on the waitlist.
Firestyle Apr 25th 2011 9:44AM
Yes, players have a limited tolerance for sitting - especially the good ones. It's one reason 10 man raiding is so healthy since it's easier to coordinate a consistent 10-11 raiders than it is 25 mans. For the players you have, everyone sees some action.
Nadia Apr 25th 2011 9:52AM
How about, instead of recruiting 30 raiders you recruit 35.
That way, the 8-10 not in the 25 man run have the option of running the 10 man version and getting PuGs for the last couple of slots.
As long as the 10 man stays at the same pace or slower in the same raid, boss lockouts won't be a problem when switching between raid versions.
Knob Apr 25th 2011 10:18AM
That's only viable if the 10 people being sat out consist of 2 tanks, 2-3 healers and 5-6 DPS classes. And if people don't have good enough off-spec gear to fill up those required roles, then the raid is going to fail.....especially 10m heroic modes which are very brutal in terms of execution and required numbers.
Wellsee Apr 25th 2011 9:57AM
If the guild has 25 raiders with 3 on the bench, try to organize a 10 man raid on a non-standard night around those 3. From the other 25 raiders, you should be able to fill out the other 7 slots.
Sagretti Apr 25th 2011 10:33AM
Won't work anymore, since 10 man and 25 man share a lockout. You'd have to make it an alt+bench team run after regular raid nights are done for the week. Since there's a good chance you'd end up having to pug a lot of it anyway, it'd probably be barely a step-up from being stuck on the wait-list.
Wellsee Apr 25th 2011 10:57AM
I did mean to say fill the raid with alts. I think it would be better than a pug because you know those 7 players know the fights, and presumably, know how to communicate well with their team.
Saeadame Apr 25th 2011 12:29PM
Alt runs are a great idea, and it helps people get their alts some gear in case they happen to be needed some night (maybe their alt is a healer and the group is down a healer, right?)
I think the atmosphere of an alt run, naturally, needs to be different than a normal progression raid... the idea has to be that this is something to do for these three people and our alts, and we're just going to do what we can, not aim to down HM 5/13 or something.
Bhoz Apr 25th 2011 3:25PM
I feel for Blizzard: The current lockout system makes juggling between 10-man and 25-man Normals and Heroics nearly impossible if you're trying to mix and match raids to gear-up reserves and new recruits, but if they turn the clock back to how it was in ToC/ToGC, the player base will grind itself into exhaustion chasing loot.
Blizzard should make lockouts work on a loot-per-boss basis: Once you've killed a boss, you are no longer eligible to receive BoP loot from that boss (Gold and BoEs could still be fair game), but you would still be able to do the fight under a separate Raid ID. This would allow guilds to gear up reserves and new recruits without guilds having to resort to semi-suboptimal (and frequently frustrating) Alt raids.
"Gear Chasers" and the "Me-Me-Me Crowd" won't be interested in doing fights that they can't get loot from, but the "Team-Oriented" and "Guild over Self" folks would pitch in to help gear up new folks, and experiencing the fights with the guild's "A-Team" will facilitate the learning process, making the raids that the new folks do get into go smoother.
Just a thought.
slim1256 Apr 25th 2011 9:57AM
With the Guild Rep grind where it stands, is guild hopping really going to be that bad? It's taken me forever to get where I am (about 17000/21000 towards Exalted).
It's an interesting balance Blizz needs to strike - you don't want guild hopping to be too easy, so add nice rewards through the guild vendors... but you don't want people who have a legitimate beef with their guild (e.g., getting strung along on the waitlist for a raid spot) to not be able to transition guilds without taking huge hits...
zubbiefish Apr 25th 2011 10:41AM
As far as guild rep and hopping are concerned. The perks you lose from moving to another guild are more than made up for by getting to do what you want. Raiding in this case. If you find a good guild, that you can stick with. The guild rep will come, and with it the perks. If you hang around with a guild, that doesn't provide the basics of what you're after, the perks are almost worthless anyhow.