Ready Check: Dealing with a failing second raid group

I'm writing to you as an officer in a guild and a raid leader for one of two groups in said guild.
Originally, our group struggled for numbers, mostly filled by alts from the other group. Then, we entered a golden age of progress, gaining several members who regularly attended. Then, we lost several to another guild. Then several more ceased regularly attending. Alts became less reliable. Several new recruits joined, and never show up for raids. Yet every new recruit, we check availability, everyone's availability for 2/3 raid nights ... I'm flabbergasted, and frustrated, with a hodgepodge group every night of non-ideal compositions born of necessity, less than ideal members not properly geared and less than committed to raiding, because we have no choice. We're not picking and choosing between members, we're taking whoever is available, which is usually just barely 10.
I'm aggressively recruiting, and doing my best to educate people on fights, but the fact of the matter is several of our members are underperforming drastically below their expected DPS for class, spec, and gear. Those same people are often failing mechanics, and failing to handle interrupts, dispels, etc.
I'm at my wit's end. We, my co-leader and myself, are at a point where something has to give. People need to start frankly not sucking, and taking some personal responsibility for their gear, enchants, and performance. Or, we honestly will have to either stop running this group, and PUG our raids, or leave. We want, above all else, to see progress. And our enjoyment of the game is declining rapidly. Is there anything we can realistically do?
The guild has no penal system. We have no DKP system. And there's no incentive to outperform anyone else when we barely have enough people to go any given night. I feel like we're in a situation where we're set up to fail.
No penalty boxI actually want to address your final paragraph first: Don't bother with a penalty system. Those never really work. Penalty systems only make the punished players feel resentful. The only meaningful penalty is "you don't get to go." Give players a chance to improve, and let them know if they don't, you'll be forced to replace them.
I hope your language is born out of frustration, in terms of people "not sucking" and taking personal responsibility. I'm not judging here; it's simply that if people aren't self-motivated to improve gear with things like gems and enchants, then there's only so much hope of those people really stepping up to the plate.
While I wouldn't angst about whether a player has the very best, bleeding-edge enchants, taking the basic steps is up to each individual. If you have to babysit every player at fundamental levels, you're kind of hosed from the start. You're forced back into the position where you have to recruit.
Set your own pace
That's easy for me to say, of course. You actually started off your letter with the dynamic that's causing all of your problems. It sounds as if you're a secondary raid group drawing members off the primary raid group. Since you're left struggling to find members, you start in a failing position. It even sounds like you don't feel the full support of your guild.
I hate to say it, but I see this kind of tough position all the time. When a guild has nearly enough members for two raids, and when you populate two raids with separate individuals, then those two raids actually become something more like two mini-guilds.
Your best bet is to accept that and run your separate raid much like that individual, separate guild. Draw your basic requirements and set expectations. And then keep recruiting until you've cycled enough reliable players to always be able to run.
For a 10-man raid, I like to have around 13 individuals on the overall roster. Real life happens. If any of your players are married couples, then real life happening to one will happen to two at the same time. While that means if all 13 individuals are online at the same time, three will have to sit out ... that's the price of making sure the raid always runs.If you find yourself getting flack from your fellow guild leaders, your position is grounded in the fact that it's your job to run a successful raid. You can't do that if you're constantly taking hand-me-down alts and semi-motivated players.
Running two raids means you need all the tools necessary to execute a full raid. You can't simply run on "whoever is available." That's not a tenable position for 90% of the populace. Keep recruiting and pushing.
Coach your members where you can. Recruit to fill the holes where coaching is not possible. You have to stand up and run your raid. I wish I had a magic bullet for you, but there's not one. This kind of thing is the real challenge of raid leadership. Anyone who can master Super Mario Bros. can not-stand-in-fire. It takes a leader to deal with these rough situations.
Ready Check shares all the strategies and inside information you need to take your raiding to the next level. Be sure to look up our strategy guides to Cataclysm's 5-man instances, and for more healer-centric advice, visit Raid Rx.
Filed under: Ready Check (Raiding)






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)
mmayo060171 Apr 29th 2011 3:17PM
I run a raid group for my guild, and have been given the name of the boot. Why? If someone is lacking in raid performance for multiple raids, even after a gear upgrade, then I give them the boot, permanently. I run a 2nd raid group much like our writer here, and can totally understand his frustration. What I do is start by going over the fight in its interity if one person hasn't done the fight, because that means more than likely there are others who haveny as well. This is NOT a bad thing. It's also not a bad thing if you don't down a raid boss that night, as long as you are progressing on the boss.
One way that I like to recruit new raid members, is to PuG in trade for heroics, yes I am a tank. This can be painful and brutal, and very tiring, however I found the two best healers in my guild by recruiting them from other guilds. Getting new members from other guild isn't as bad as others point it out to be as well. Sure, you may be taking from somebodys raid group, but if someone is already willing to switch guilds, then their guild cleary is not meeting their expectations.
Raid leadership is not something you can perfect, but once you get a real solid set of expectations set and met with your raid group, replacing people will become as cookie cutter as finding and kicking guild members.
KhazKhal Apr 29th 2011 3:18PM
I struggled to get a 2nd raid group going as well. In the end, it will succeed or fail over whether the raid is enjoyable for the members or not. Current raid content has too small of a margin of error for your situation. Unless you can recruit people who already know the fights and are reasonably well geared already, you might hold off on this group for now. See if you can fun some 5 man dungeon runs through the two new heroics to gear people up more.
In the end, if everyone on your roster isn't pulling their weight, isn't researching the fights, and isn't geared up enough, you will struggle to the point we did where it just wasn't fun. Current raids are not designed to support a gearing up curve within raids, unless you find grinding the initial trash pulls to be fun...
My raid failed, and ultimately our guild has gone inactive. Hopefully you will see more success, but you have the content that is presented to you now to run in. It is not learning curve friendly.
Monato Apr 29th 2011 3:27PM
Moo, is that you?
zubbiefish Apr 29th 2011 4:18PM
My guild is in a similar spot. We have 2 raid groups, but in our case it's the original one that was having more trouble. We did a fantastic job of recruiting good, reliable folks for the second group. It performed admirably, setting guild records for progress. Then, it was decided that the experience should be spread around.
The first group, in essence, poached some folks from the second group. Now they're both struggling with filling the roster every raid night. The idea was well intentioned, but poorly executed, now we're all hurting together. I guess it's the most egalitarian thing that could have happened, but being one of those that folks that moved from the group I started with, the second one, it's causing me to reconsider my choice of guild.
Incidental, we're working on a third group too. I guess so we can do less, more or less. My guild should probably try to form up a 25 man if the big nuts think we can get enough folks for three 10's.
Jayjay Apr 29th 2011 4:20PM
This is my guild atm - not a 2nd group but the main one - after a catastrophic split caused by a clash of personalities. Right now we're thinking of leaving our current server due to being unable to recruit reliable people (and our guild was previously #1 on progression on said server) but we've found that 10 mans have ruined our 25 man recruiting efforts, we get a lot of no-show too except for farm nights. We've been forced to go back to running 10 mans, which leaves out a lot of the newer recruits who are less geared and less experienced which in turn leaves them feeling 'left out' (although we try and rotate them in where possible).
I hate that Blizz made the lockout the same for 25s and 10s because quite frankly its killed our 25 man raids, which most of us prefer. Oh well.
BMEgal2 Apr 29th 2011 4:38PM
One thing that jumped out at me: the OP says, "We want, above all else, to see progress."
He then goes on to say that there's no DKP system, as well as no required attendance, no set raid roster, etc.
Sounds to me like the OP wants to be a hardcore raider but is in a more casual guild. Either get all the members on board with being more hardcore about raiding, or join a guild that is specifically set up for hardcore raiding. Then you'll be with more like-minded people, and you won't have to do so much hand-holding and baby-sitting and trying to encourage people to show up for raids.
KhazKhal Apr 29th 2011 5:03PM
Not necessarily a progression team. The desire to actually kill bosses and see new bosses isn't just something hard core people want. :) Everyone wants to feel heroic and successful by actually downing bosses.
If you are bringing in people who have no raid experience, who haven't been trained how to raid in past easier raid content, then the current raid boss mechanics can be really punishing. But even people who have raided before are finding the current raid mechanics too finely tuned to be 10 man group friendly, especially when you don't have the same group of people each week and are teaching new people every time you see a boss.
JonGalt Apr 29th 2011 6:09PM
I'm in a similar boat on the raid/guild member side of it, I guess here is as good a place as any to see if anyone has an idea of what to do.
My raid team has been doing Cata raids since February. We've gone through several iterations with a core group of 5-6 people staying with us all the way through. Progression has happened in spurts, with the occasional regression as we lose members, replace them with pugs or guildies and have to reteach fights. Example: we had Magmaw and Halfus down within the first couple weeks then Omni the week after then lost a few people and either couldn't get enough people or failed to clear any bosses for a couple weeks.
Currently, we are only 4/12 although we did much better last night, one shotting every boss we have downed previously. I am getting frustrated because the "core" members are carrying the newer members through at the moment. Myself and the other dps collectively do 40-45k, which is roughly what the rest of the dps does in aggregate. On Halfus, we did over 80k combined with the remainder of the raid doing 45k in total. Additionally, the newer members are frequently the first to die and are never properly interrupting or doing other necessary things.
To add to the difficulty, I was recently made an officer and I am the only officer that is not a long time or real life friend of the other officers. I don't want to overstep my bounds and I really enjoy raiding with the team. I have a lot of fun and it's a perfect raid time for me. I don't want to overstep my bounds, but I'm not sure how much longer I can stay in a guild that is farming the same (relatively) easy bosses.
Lester May 1st 2011 1:26AM
No gear, can't raid. Can't raid, no gear! Guild, PUG doesn't matter that's what my friends and run into. We're casual, we don't derive fun from a micro managed hardcore raid. I wish Blizz would declare a raid day for casuals and add a raid button to the dungeon finder so we could just que up and go. Something that can break a raid into steps, save where you are and utilize it for progression to the next step or higher raid level as the dungeon finder does now. Too many insist raids can't be done without intricate planning and management, whatever, I just want to have fun. Missing raids means missing out on a whole lot of game content.
murmaiderxx May 1st 2011 5:44PM
I had a similar fate in a second raid group. But we were not alts, we were a second group made up of people who stuck around from Wrath. We had the credentials to be great, but our team lacked leadership and initiative to continue without being a mediocre guild. Many of the people who were in our guild were sprinkled in vets from the number one guild on our server from back in BC. So they knew what they were doing, and we lost them due to our lack of this. It sucks I was ready for us to take this expansion head on just like we did in Wrath. We've cleared all except the final bosses in each raid at this point and have not attempted much after that for the simple fact that the leadership is just not there.
jason_1975 Apr 29th 2011 7:42PM
I was in much the same position throughout my time in Wrath. The "main" raid group was mostly IRL friends, and when a couple came back to the game my wife and I suddenly found ourselves "out" of the main raiding group.
They asked me to lead a "second" raid group which initially launched with alts. I realized immediately that this was going to go nowhere, so I actively recruited players and built a roster that included alternates.
I motivated my group by saying "I want us to catch group 1 and pass them. I want them looking up to us". I ran weekly DPS clinics for my folks, and made it my business to understand all the class mechanics (thank you Elitistjerks.com!!) of everyone in my raid. Within 5 weeks our group of "scrubs" had caught and passed the main group.
Except that the folks in Raid 1 took that pretty hard. There was a major falling out over their "stalled" progress, and several of them quit. So of course the GL stole the best replacements from my raid group, and I was back to square 1.
I did this a total of 3 times. Finally, the guild broke up due to friction in "Raid 1" and I left.
Moral of the story - you can run your raid group very well, motivate the hell out of them, and push them to new heights. But if your guild doesn't support your raid group excelling, it won't happen.
My recommendation is to find a guild that will support you, or start your own. You'll be much happier.
sharlatan Apr 30th 2011 7:42AM
Something kind of similar, or rather the opposite, happened to me.
We ran two 10mans back in ICC, we were a casual guild but the main group at the time were 10/12, the second group about 5/12 and there was some tension as people thought the grousp should be fair.
So they were reorganised and both groups evened out at being able to clear about 6-7/12, which imo was a step back.
All the better players were now resentful about progress stepping back, we had panderred to the mediocre, and were in danger of losing the better players and keeping the poor ones.
My opinion is you cater to the best, they are the hard to find, the mediocre are a dime a dozen, the decent players are hard to get and retain.
What I did to keep progress and interest was start a late night weekend alt run, just inviting the better player's alts. With less gear and on alts we went 12/12 and started on heroics......and then the bads in the guild started bitching they were not invited to the alt run.....
My point? You cant keep everyone happy, it never works. Choose who you want to keep happy? is the best players? if so set standards high and ditch anyone who does not measure up. Otherwise you will be left with a mediocre pile of crappy raiders as your decent players who are the backbone of your raid leave for other guilds.
trendy.ideology May 2nd 2011 8:23PM
This is/was my letter.
Glad to see people with similar frustrations/experiences.
We ended up server transferring, and clear in two nights everything our old guild ever successfully killed. And almost got Chogall on one of our first attempts even though me and my gf had never done the fight. Oneshotted Elementium Monstrosity. Had never even attempted it before.
My advice to the commenters here is to go where the progress/fun is.
You can recruit all day, all week, all month, but the longer you sit on the benches without a functional group the more stale content is going to get. It's getting nerfed constantly, do you wanna see it now? Or do you wanna be the people doing ICC during Cata?
Eytan May 3rd 2011 11:09AM
I'm a member of the third raid group in my guild. On my first night with them, we failed horribly at Magmaw with a holy pally with 333 ilvl who couldn't pull his weight, and a bunch of other people, myself included, who had almost never seen a raid before.
Now we are 11/12, attempting Nef and heroic halfus this week. Our dps which was once hovering around the 10k mark, with some members above, and some below, shot up to 15k min on most fights.
I doubted a lot, but in the end my raid-mates proved me wrong. Even the most unlikely of the bunch destroys the meters and responds to mechanics like a boss.
Just stick with it, even the worst will improve. Just get yourself a core group.