Apparentlly, in lore there's a couple of dozen adventurers who do all the stuff the player characters do. In the case of ICC, I'd presume it was mostly the Ashen Verdict that did it.

From what I've seen, anything having to do with lore where players killed a boss or something, usually mentions "a group of adventurers" or something like that.

*points to The Deadmines HC*

I think it is just credited as a group of adventurers that helped Tirion. The Crusade and Blade were busy fighting the considerable amount of scourge still in and trying to get into the citadel. So they left the fight to the adventurers who cleared out the Lich King's lieutenants and most powerful minions as well as Fordring.

I think that the Lich King may just be the first boss that we, the adventures, actually did kill lore-wise. All his RP during the fight is about how he put us through tests to lure Azeroth's strongest fighters to his throne so he could raise us as his greatest champions ever. Tirion (and Terenas' spirit) foiled his plans and helped us defeat the Lich King, but I do believe we actually get some credit for it.

Of course, everything that happened on the top of the Frozen Throne is top secret at this point, so the general population of Azeroth probably has no clue the adventures were there, but the way I see it... lore probably does say that a merry band of Azeroth's finest random people helped bring the Lich King to an end.


This is quite different from other bosses, like Onyxia where lore has been written to give Varian all the credit :P

Yes, it's just a random group of heroes according to lore. In fact, if you go to Dalaran and watch the cut scene we get after killing the Lich King, you'll notice that Bolvar says to Tirion, "You and these brave heroes have your own destiny to fulfill." He is talking specifically about the players who are technically also standing there after the battle. There have been many groups of these "brave heroes" or "adventurers" who have defeated big bosses, and that is how the lore reads.

IMO, Blizzard keeps these things relatively ambiguous, otherwise, let's be honest, the world first guilds would have the credit.

So for the most part, since most raiders geared up for ICC through ToC, all raiders who went into ICC were members of the Ashen Verdict and therefore the Ashen Verdict, and by extension, the leaders of the Ashen Verdict take ultimate accountability and credit for Arthas' death. At best, the raiders themselves are the anonymous "task force" that ends up being the support and the "cannon fodder." In any event [spoiler] anyone who makes it through the LK fight learns that they are the crème de la crème of the AV forces, and as such are tagged to be the greatest of the Lich King's subordinates - but then Blizzard set that up from Day 1 in Howling Fjord (if you're not a dope like me and actually get yourself "killed" by the LK during one of the quests - otherwise, I *think* it's the necklace quest in Zul'Drak that drops the first clue that the LK has his eyes on you).

So as far as a take-away, Tirion Fordring takes ultimate credit for the kill. You, the raider, are the Ashen Verdict "Special Forces" that did the dirty work.

From a quasi-role-play perspective, in essence players have to do a little bit of ret-conning. Instead of thinking you've killed the same bosses dozens of times, the perception is more along the lines of the cumulative time spent from starting trash to ending boss represents the initiative - so even though we may say we killed end boss A 37 times in the last 3 months, as far as a storytelling perspective, we spent 3 months hunting down and killing the end boss. At least, that's how I perceive it.

This, of course, is all rendered moot if Blizzard clearly states who killed something (ie: Varian Wrynn killed Onyxia).

In any event, there is a lot of willing suspension of disbelief once you get into raiding, since Blizzard isn't yet at a point where the bosses will remember you from the last time you ransacked their homes...and I'm not sure we want to go there. Even though it would be funny for a boss to say "what, you again?" You know that it wouldn't take long for the Goblins to start selling bosses "dungeon-owner's insurance, and I'm sure that's going to play rough with raiding economy. Insurance isn't cheap, you know.

It's usually explained as "A small band of heroes" or "Famous NPC and a small group of heroes," for example, for Illidan in Black Temple, it would have been "Maiev Shadowsong and a group of heroes defeated Illidan Stormrage after storming through the temple and defeating Illidans minions."

In terms of YOUR personal perspective on it, you can put your own spin on it. You can choose to say "I was there, I helped kill Illidan, I was a part of the group of heroes." Or you can say, "Well, it wasn't me, but I was able to vicariously experience that event in an alternate reality universe that allowed me to re-enact those noble deeds." There is always room for interpretation of the "and a group of heroes," because Blizzard never specifies which heroes, and in fact rarely even hints at which faction did the deed.

That is the fun of an open-ended MMO, you can make of it whatever you wish. Blizzard will usually identify certain lore characters as leading the fight (Tirion, Varian, Maiev), and the rest is up to you to role play or simply decide what you really think happened.

Kinda like SEAL Team Six taking out bin Laden and President Obama taking most of the credit.

@ Yams

I don't quite think thats the case. If I remember, "adventurers" have taken down Ragnaros, Nefarian, C'thun, Kel'thuzad, etc etc. In fact it may be the opposite, where unless it specifically states a major lore character did it alone, it was always almost a group of adventurers and possibly and major lore character helping them (recent examples being Illidan, Kiljaedan, and the Lich King.)

Dare I get into a political discussion on WoW insider?

@IDes
It's not like he claimed to have found the location of bin Laden while doing his daily search on Google Earth, rappelled into the compound alone from a helicopter that he himself was operating, single-handedly (and bare-handedly) fought off wave after wave of terrorists, and killed the US's #1 enemy. He was presented with intelligence gleaned after years of effort from the hard work of others in the military and the CIA, consulted with his cabinet and top military advisors as to his options, and made a very risky decision that turned out to be a great one. The president gets the praise when things go right and the fury of the public when things go wrong. He didn't once say "I did this". The White House is making pains to give credit where credit is due, or you wouldn't even know the name "SEAL Team Six".

If it makes you feel any better, I didn't vote for him. But he still gets some credit for this call, in my book.


And to make this somewhat WoW-related and relevant, um...

Question for the Queue: If a tree falls in the forest and it lands on a gnome, does it make a sound?

The tree? Or the gnome?

It's philosophical, so it's open to interpretation.

For me, it really depends on how you define "sound" and whether or not tree-crushed gnomes are capable of screaming. Then again, gnomes of the cookie-baking variety make their homes in trees, so this may not be as catastrophic as it seems. Hmm...

I need to put more thought into this.

It was the epic, secretive, elite gnome group SEAL team 6. Duh.

I, for one, am thoroughly grateful that Blizz doesn't go the way of giving credit in lore to actual player characters in game but rather keeps it very vague. I'd have to see that cannon lore specifically states that, for example, the Lich King was killed by the brave Xxkilludedxx, and his comarades Shammyhealz, Barbigurl, Bubblz, and Gunnapwnu!

I think I'd lose all gaming and serious lore cred with the rest of my geeky friends that play other lore-heavy games.

:P

-X

See - I picture the sound a gnome would make being crushed by a tree as sort of a squeaky noise... like the sound a dog toy makes.

Well, Tirion had a statue of himself built. I guess we know what he thinks.
-Paraphrase of discussion on the WoW Insider Show

@Maccabeus: Fair point. I guess it just feels like the first time because of how differently the "random adventurers" aspect was handled. With the Lich King grooming us for his army the entire time we were questing through Northrend, it comes across as a much more meaningful piece of lore to me. Almost as if the group that put an end to the Lich King could be considered somewhat of a major lore figure itself now.

I think the lore reason is usually whatever major character who's involved and a random group of adventurers (us).

http://www.wowpedia.org/Adventurer
Also wowpedia has a list of some of the stuff adventurers have done.