Ready Check: When you disagree with your raid leader
by Michael Gray 
May 6th 2011 at 4:00PM
A good friend and colleague, Mr. Matt "The Matticus" Low, recently recieved the following question: "I consistently disagree with my [raid leader] on raid decisions and I know I can do a better job. What do I do?"
Matt's a man of few words. He's like a healing cowboy from the old (Canadian) West, riding into town on the horse of common sense. Hearts break at his passing, and bad guys (of poor logic) fall at his feet. His response was simple, borrowing the words of ancient wisdom from Lao-tzu:
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
What he meant by that, of course, is that if you can't agree with your raid leader on anything and you think you can do a better job, then you should go do that job: Start your own raid. While Matt summed it up pretty easily, it's like I said -- he's a man of few words. I'm a tad more verbose.
I'm going to start off with the fair warning that this is a bit of advice. I believe in things like "fair play" and "giving people a chance." If you don't care about trying to do "the right thing" or maybe even interpret "the right thing" the same way I do, a lot of my advice will simply fall flat. It is what it is, and to each his own.
Start off fair
Frequently, when I hear people say "I never agree with my raid leader!" they're talking about on-the-fly strategies and they're talking about trying to reach consensus in the middle of raid. As a raid leader myself who prizes hit 10-man group exactly for its ability to communicate informally, even in that situation, I sometimes find myself unwilling to make certain changes because I don't have time in the middle of a raid.
So before you assume that you can't possibly ever agree with your raid leader, make sure you're talking to him during a time he can be receptive in the first place. It's just playing fair; trying to reach consensus while he's busy running a raid going to be damned near impossible.
I know I can do a better jobThis always sounds harsh, so I'm just going to throw it out there. "I know I can do a better job" doesn't mean anything. "I have done a better job" and "I am doing a better job" are at least something people can argue; you can compare two raids against one another and gauge different measurement points to ascertain "better."
(Quick tangent: "better" is an incredibly subjective term. I always think better "at what?" when I hear that. Better at progression? Better at having fun? The two aren't the same thing. Better at including the entire guild? You have to define "better" for it to have meaning.)
More to leading than you think
Folks often think of "raid leading" as simply being the guy who calls the shots. There's a lot more that goes into it than just being the head honcho.
You have to take care of your people, make sure morale is doing okay, monitor performance, attendance, and customize strategies against your roster. You have to make decisions about which raid instance you'll go into each night, and you need to gauge whether your raid is "ready" for each step of progression. You have to recruit, evaluate, and you have to provide feedback. You have to fire raid members. And when you do fire a raid member, you have to make sure other members don't leave in a huff. (And if they do, you have to deal with that.)
In a lot of ways, knowing the fights and making raid calls is the easiest, simplest part of the job. There are plenty of resources that will show you boss fights, and Blizzard is even adding the dungeon journal to make it easier. Every armchair quarterback with delusions of being alpha dog can look that crap up; it takes a leader to handle everything else.
If you've tried to communicate fairly and you truly think you can do a better job of everything, you have one choice left: Start your own raid.
Try to be diplomatic, of course. It's a somewhat lame duck who posts on the guild forums and says, "I'm starting my own -- who's coming with me?" Righteous or not, people who do that always look bad.
It feels like a jerk move to break up an existing raid to start your own, but it goes back to the proof in the pudding: If you can really, truly do better, then do it. Some people might go with you, and that's a shame for the people left behind, but it's a social game. After all, the old raid leader has the same challenges you do as a brand new one.
The caveat here, though, is that for every new raid I see start in this fashion, about half blow their old group out of the water, and the other half falters and fails. It really isn't as easy as you might think, and you'll be taking a pretty big risk.
You didn't say that your extant raid leader is doing a bad job, just that you think you could do a better one. You need to make sure you think the risk is worth it.
Ready Check shares all the strategies and inside information you need to take your raiding to the next level. Be sure to look up our strategy guides to Cataclysm's 5-man instances, and for more healer-centric advice, visit Raid Rx.
Filed under: Ready Check (Raiding), Raiding
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Aaron May 6th 2011 4:10PM
Seriously your advice is to poach the guild's raiders? So many better options. Here's one: start an alt run. If the questioner is as great a raidleader as he thinks he is, the guild's officers will notice and it all goes from there.
Garnlok May 6th 2011 4:22PM
That's just his point. If you think you're raid leader isn't doing as good a job as you can, start running your own. Grab alts and anyone who's interested and try to prove that you can indeed do a better job. Don't just say "I'm better then you, you suck" and try to take it all over. Eventually you'll replace the old leader (if you're right), either through agreement with him and everyone or just because your raid does better so that you become the main progresion raid leader.
Finnicks May 6th 2011 4:32PM
As far as leaving to start your own, and not overtly trying to poach your fellow raiders along with you, here's my experience:
I was once a raid leader for one of two raid teams for a guild. The guild leader (and raid lead for the other team) had some leadership/control issues. His team was having difficulty with ToC (mainly the PvP boss), while my team could clear all of ToC-10 in about 40 minutes.
My team wanted to start ICC, and he kept telling us "No" because he wanted both teams to be on the same page as far as progression. The trouble there was, again, we'd finish it in about 40 minutes and be down -for the whole week-, while the other team would spend two 3 hour raid nights in there wiping on the PvP boss.
He finally relented and said we could start ICC. But when the day came, he randomly decided "Change of plans. You're doing ToC heroic instead." I was more than a little angry. Not only was he renegging on his promise to us at the last minute, but he's asking us to do content that is -significantly harder than ICC-. Combine this with the fact that we tried Grand Crusader the previous weekend "for fun" and couldn't get past phase 1 of the first boss without half the DPS dying... I was pretty adamant with him that my raid team would be far more successul (and get better gear!) in ICC.
My objections were conveyed to him in whispers, and he responded by coming into our raid's vent channel and chewing me out in front of my raid team about how we're doing Grand Crusader whether I like it or not because it's something he thinks we need to experience. The whole "public humiliation" tactic he pulled was the final straw for me.
[Raid][Finnicks] Sorry guys. I think you're a great bunch of people, really solid raiders and I love you all, but after what just happened... I just can't deal with this anymore. This is a game, not a job.
And I silently dropped out of the guild and the raid.
Within 24 hours, all but 1 of the members of my raid team had also dropped guild and joined up with me to form our own guild.
Moral of the story:
If you're a great raider, a great player, and a great person, and you really are capable of being a better raid leader, your fellow raiders will see that, and they will follow you without being prompted if they are really worth their salt. You won't have to ask.
Tim May 6th 2011 7:36PM
I don't understand... Your the raid leader of the group, if you want to do ICC, you do ICC. Then deal with the fallout and see where to go from there. It's a game, no a freaking job.
I'd bet 95+% of people that say they can do better can't.
Edymnion May 6th 2011 4:36PM
Yeah, thats some pretty awful advice there mate.
The *FIRST* thing you should do is go up to your raid leader and say "Hey, this looks like fun. Can I try leading the raid one week?". And thats that. You've broached the topic with the raid leader, and you've done it in a way that isn't adversarial and isn't going to put him or anyone else on the defensive. Its just a "Hey, Bob wants to try leading this week's run, should be interesting to say the least!" moment.
If it works, then you have not only ammo for doing it your way from then on, you will have everybody knowing you can do it and the transition is more likely to be smooth. If you fail miserably, you can just go "Well, that wasn't as easy as it looked. Thanks for letting me try it out." and you're done, again, no bad blood, no hurt feelings.
Trying to steal away the main raid team is just begging to have a scenario the Drama Mama's will have to deal with next week.
Mordermi May 6th 2011 4:38PM
Don't forget: if you think you can do a better job, ask the raid leader to let you have a shot at leading the raid for a week or two. You might just get the opportunity to prove whether you can be effective as the raid leader. Even control-freak raid leaders like a break every once in a while. :-)
georgeb.fleming May 6th 2011 4:47PM
If you don't like your raid leader, talk to him. If that doesn't work, suck it up or leave the guild.
zhaharik May 6th 2011 4:49PM
Sheesh, talk about going straight to the nuclear option :/
I know that the author of this article did advocate talking to the raid leader first, but seriously, could you not think of any further options beyond "attempt to destroy your guild by instigating huge drama"? Surely a bit more dialogue is called for here...
How about asking the raid leader if you can prove the value of your alternative approach by leading an alt or second-team raid? Or, if the raid leader is really not interested in listening to another point of view, talk to the GM (if it's not the same person)?
Honestly, the message I got from this article was: "In a raiding guild? Think you're always right? Try to steal as many people as you can and start your own!"
Taus May 6th 2011 4:52PM
The spirit of those suggestions are good, but they sort of miss the point of the article. Temporarily leading a raid will give people experience with the minute-to-minute calls, not the actual leading of the raid, which is a much more difficult job.
I share raid leading with a guy in our 10 who is excellent at strats and minute-to-minute, but maybe not so much on long-term viability, morale, pacing, etc. There's only one person who needs to think on that meta level, and as long as everybody has clear and defined roles it all works. I have to keep things in check, because if I did everything my tacticians wanted to do when they have longer-term ideas, we'd lack cohesion and a sense of long-term accomplishment. There are things about the goals and mindsets of the people we raid with that they do not know, as well as just psychological insight into what keeps morale up, and knowing that sometimes doing what appears to be fair is more important than doing what is actually fair. Contrarywise, I couldn't do it without their help.
Sometimes one person can do both of these jobs, but most people I've run with are good at only one or other, but they think they're good at both. This isn't something specific to WoW either - it's pervasive in the professional workforce. Generally people are good at people, strategy (using the term in the business sense, not in the 'raid strat' sense), and management, or they're good at operations, tactics, and supervision.
Almost every time I hear about an issue with stuff like this, it has to do with someone who is good with people but not so great on the strats, and it's almost always mid-raid that someone wants to change something.
Lissanna May 6th 2011 5:20PM
Well, if you like how your officers run the raiding guild as a whole, but not how the minute-to-minute shots are called during the actual raid, then you could volunteer to call the shots and describe the boss fights in the raid situation and let other officers take care of more of the "behind the scenes" things outside the raid time. That's why it is overall better to have a team of officers than just one person. We can have raid leaders that just cover boss strats during the raid and make the "move out of fire" calls, and someone else that does the attendance tracking, and someone else who manages the bank, and someone else who does hand-holding when people start drama...
Rgho May 6th 2011 4:55PM
"Don't forget: if you think you can do a better job, ask the raid leader to let you have a shot at leading the raid for a week or two. "
This x1000! As a control freak raid leader I'm constantly on the prowl for someone to lead raids so I don't have to lead *every* *single* *raid*. So far though, my experience with 90% of the "I can do better than you" people is that they don't know what they are in for and they burn out quick.
One of the most difficult things I find when leading is that while I love suggestions, I often get multiple conflicting suggestions on nearly every wipe. That's fine, but inevitably if I take one of the suggestions I won't be taking the other conflicting suggestions because.. well.. you often can't do what every person is suggesting. Inevitably this leads to someone thinking to themselves that they disagree with every call I make and they could do a better job without realizing that no matter what suggestion I took, the person who's suggestion I *didn't* take would think they could do a better job.
This makes me sound bitter, but I am not. I love WoW and I enjoy raid leading. There's just so much ambiguity in the statement "I disagree with every decision you make and I could do better" that just uttering it to me indicates that that person probably doesn't have what it takes to raid lead. Not that *I* have what it takes to raid lead, I just happen to be the guy there doing it. If someone can do it better it'll make my nights much more relaxing!
jfofla May 6th 2011 5:11PM
Few realize being a Leader means serving those you lead. A good leader is first and foremost a servant, putting others before himself.
dengarsw May 6th 2011 8:40PM
Ding! That's why whenever I hear people say this, I have severe doubts. The second I see someone say "we" instead of "I" signals, to me, that they're already on their way towards success.
louissickler May 6th 2011 5:26PM
A while ago I was in a guild that was extreemly casual and at some point during BC I went to the guild leader/raid leader (whom I had gamed with for many years) and said I really wanted to progress faster and can we get this going. His basic response was "This is a casual guild and this is how we run things but if you want to progress faster, good luck do your own thing". Thus I started my own guild. This of course was way back in BC so I needed 24 more people.....This in it's self is a larger task then you might imagine. Not finding 24 other people but managing them 3 nights a week. Anyway ask yourself the following questions before you take this step:
1) Do have have the time/energy to constantly recruit your roster, sub's, new people etc to keep the raid going month after month?
2) Can you babysit 9 or 24 other people x number of nights a week and listen to how unfair it is that they did not get the loot they wanted?
3) Will your head explode when for the 500th time someone does not get out of the fire?
4) Do you have the interpersonal skill to get people to do what you want (need) them to do without being a complete and total dick? This is extreemly important. People do not get paid to play WoW, thus they have to want to follow you, it's not just enough that your right, you have to make them belive that your right and modivate them to do what you need them to do.
5) Do you understand that your not the best at everything? Can you take construtive critism?
6) Do you know each class at a somewhat "Advanced" level? If your main is a Rogue can you make suggestions to the Shadow Priest on what he should be doing in the fight? You dont have to be an expert but you do have to know what your talking about.
7) Are you going to put significant time outside of the game into researching strategy and expaining it in detail to your raid team?
8) Does it sound like fun to constantly be getting tells from people saying "Jimmy has to get out of the fire or I think we should use Strategy X instead"
Our raid succeded not becuase I was good at each of these issues but because I was good at a few of them and I found people that were good at the others and let them do those tasks. Anyway it's a lot of work even for a 10 man raid but if you feel your up to it, go for it. I can guarentee you one thing.....your success or failure will be obvious.
For me after a year or so of being a top 5 raiding guild on our server, I decided it was not really worth it and am back with my original guild. Because I left on great terms and did not recruit players from my original guild or generally be a dick when I left I had the option to come back and now someone else lead's our little raid and I am more then happy to show up and do what I am told if I think it's the right thing or not.
yarf May 6th 2011 5:35PM
Diary of a Raid Leader.
Day 1: Hey! The GM approached me today and asked me to lead a 10 man raid! Awesome! Now let's look at the guild roster... oh there's only 5 people that are geared for raiding that aren't already in the other group... alright, send them an invite... spend the next week recruiting.
Day 7: Raid night 1 is finally here. I'm a little nervous about some of these pugs...
Day 14: Alright, we've solidified our raid group a little, we're up to 6 steady members including myself. We're still down healers and some dps. Raid's in 2 hours, I better start looking, now. -- Well, it's start time and I still don't have a full group...
Day 21: I don't get it... why can't I get competent healers? I've spent 2 hours every day before the raid trying to get the group filled... this week we won't be able to go, at least not tonight... maybe tomorrow I'll have better luck.
Day 22: No luck today... sorry guys.
Day 28: It's looking the same, and because we didn't go last week, one of the DPS pugged, thinking we wouldn't go this week... that's another spot I'm going to have to fill. It's not looking good...
Day 35: Two people accepted the invite but didn't show up. This is really getting aggravating. It's 3 weeks now and we haven't gone in. I've managed to pug most of the group, but we're still down healers... At least a couple new recruits into the guild should help... if only they were on.
Day 42: Alright, this week I managed to get the new recruits in and some of the people I invited last week agreed to come this week. I removed the DPS that keeps pugging because we haven't been going, and another dropped,but I think we'll go tonight.
Day 43: Last night was alright. The inexperience of the pugs really hurt our progression, we only got Halfus down... Tonight, though we should do better, I've asked that they review the fight and gave some good links. --- Of course, some didn't show up... pugging again...
Day 49: I actually have a full group! It's a couple from the other run since they didn't run this week due to some RL stuff. Well, let's go in!
Day 50: We did awesome last night! Three bosses down! Tonight's looking to be even better!
Day 56: Aaaand...back to pugging. A shame we couldn't have the same people from last week... but maybe the fact we did so well will boost morale of the team. I need to talk to X about his DPS though, it's a little low... I don't think he's got the right stat priorities, or it might be his rotation... and why is the Pally healer trying to raid heal? Going oom every pull...
Moral of the diary? This is what it looks like for my group. I'm an experienced raid leader, led all through wrath, but this group I got handed in cata isn't complete, partly because of the reasons listed above, and partly because we just haven't had people be reliable. Leading a raid isn't easy, it is a lot of work. On a raid night that I'm not full (with 10 people accepted) i log on about 2 hours early to start filling those empty spots... because that's usually how long it takes.
Katherine May 6th 2011 7:20PM
^ This. I'm not a raid leader, but I'm an officer in a casual raiding guild that's never had a full roster. One of our guys tried starting his own raid/guild, and it tanked horribly. He's now back with us, but we still only have about 6 people that show up regularly. And every week we get harassed by people that want to pug with us but are missing enchants, gems, wearing wildly inappropriate gear, talking with a ton of typos, responding to questions about their gear with "ask my friend how good I am, you better take me if you're taking him". And that's when we get enough responses to be able to turn some pugs down.
Achertite May 6th 2011 5:41PM
Snipe raid members and make a new raid? That's the biggest ball of bologna I've ever heard!
The first question that should be asked is, "Even if I could do a better job, is it really necessary?". If your raid is failing succinctly then maybe so, however if you're killing bosses I must ask - what's the point? Coming from someone who is in a guild that is going through some serious turmoil with and without leadership, this is a big thing. If you think you can do a better job then do an alt run or ask the raid leader to let you do things for a week. If things go better, great - let the leadership make the call. If the leadership includes this "bad" raid leader and change won't happen, then it's time to leave. If you happen to poach raid members at this point then that's okay because it's a problem that wasn't going to be solved with you or them in the guild and it's probably best for everyone.
Sorry, but this article is waaaaaaay off. I could have done a better job. ;-)
Rubitard May 6th 2011 6:25PM
The second guild I was ever in was the very definition of a nightmare raiding guild in WoW. Basically, if someone were to try and make a textbook case of the worst aspects of the MMO player base, these folks were it. Pedantic, argumentative and arrogant nerds flailing around with little to no knowledge of how to interact with human beings. Not only did my experiences with these wretched folk kill any interest in raiding for many years, I actually stopped playing for a good many moons, thinking that they spoke for all who had raiding guilds. They didn't know teamwork from their asses, and had a knack for petty squabbles at every turn. Shouting matches passed for leadership, and I mean our Tuesday nights made the "moar dots" guy look like a cuddly bunny. Most nights devolved into outright nerd aggression, delivered via guild chat in all caps and/or shouts over Vent. Sometimes, there was passive-agressive performance art, like when a husband and wife team would begin openly insulting each other's sexual abilities right there in front of everyone. Yeah. Good times. I mention all this, because I feel guilty even now a few years later on. I never once tried to step up and be heard, never tried to take the reigns, and never showed any backbone at all in the face of all of that. Could I have changed anything, really? Probably not. But I don't like that I let it lie there and just ran without a fight. Sure, it was a lost cause, but I'll never know for sure and certain. In the end, I was every bit as guilty as everyone else. That's the bottom line for me: In WoW, as in any other team endeavor, you've got to step up and be heard, if for no other reason that to know you tried. No matter the odds, you try and make it better.
alyxx May 6th 2011 8:09PM
I firmly believe that everyone who raids should take a turn at raid leading and being loot master, just to understand what it's like to be in the hot seat.
Lemons May 6th 2011 8:30PM
My biggest problem with raid leads is always when they decide to do an absolutely horrible strat and then we spend the entire night failing, not because we're bad at raiding or someone is standing in the fire, but because the strat is horrible. To me, if you want to be a raid leader, you should be flexible and listen to other opinions instead of just doggedly pursuing the same strat when it's clearly not working.
That's why I take issue with this whole "don't bring it up during the raid!" because that's the perfect time to bring it up unless you like wasting an entire night of raiding. Strat making should be collaborative, not just one dude saying "well, this is how we're going to do it" and everyone blindly following like lemurs.