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5-24-2011 @ 1:53PM
So does that mean that 359 Tier Helm and Shoulders will be sold for justice points?
5-24-2011 @ 2:00PM
I don't believe they've mentioned doing that. You'll probably still need to kill one of the three end bosses to get those.
5-24-2011 @ 2:38PM
This whole nerf thing says to me, if you want to see content, but not have to deal with other people failing, and you don't care about gear or being super elitiest, then wait until a new patch comes out, go in, coast through, and then go back on hiatus until the next patch turns on ez-mode for the new stuff.Really? They need to actually change the encounters? It will be easier to gear up already...so...why do you have to make it easier? Instead of a group going in in Blues, and having to be utterly perfect to get through, they can grind on heroics for a couple weeks and be in full T11 and then go do it and have plenty of room for mistakes and learning.So now, you can get instant T11, and go through a raid thats been dumbed down to near dungeon level.Or you can try and talk people into doing the Heroic version, but, hah, who wants to go through that pain with Firelands and T12 sitting right there?
5-24-2011 @ 2:46PM
In addition to being handed 365 gear from daily quests and 359 gear from heroics, it seems a bit strange that they'd tab on additional nerfs. Especially nerfs [i]this[/i] drastic. Things like Chimaeron, Nefarian, and Al'Akir's nerfs are a bit ridiculous. They're removing major elements from the fights.Obviously they're reaching out to the population of WoW players that are struggling to complete normal mode Tier-11, but what's going to happen after they do? They're just going to go up to Firelands and get hit by a brick wall? I'm also worried what this actually means for Firelands - who are they tuning the content for? Are they expecting those who kill Nefarian for the first time after 4.2 to be able to succeed in Firelands?The problem with nerfs this drastic is that it accelerates people into content that they're simply not ready for. Congratz, you killed Al'Akir for the first time after 4.2, and you've got your "Defender of the Shattered World" title. Does this player have even a remote chance at succeeding in Firelands? If yes, then Firelands is way too undertuned. If no, then why are you throwing them into a brick wall?
5-24-2011 @ 2:52PM
"Really? They need to actually change the encounters? It will be easier to gear up already...so...why do you have to make it easier? Instead of a group going in in Blues, and having to be utterly perfect to get through, they can grind on heroics for a couple weeks and be in full T11 and then go do it and have plenty of room for mistakes and learning."Gear doesn't help with the vast multitude of 1-shot or raid-wipe mechanics that are in the "normal" difficulty T11 boss fights.I don't think you've tried to do Council with people who don't respond to lightning rod or Atramedes with people who can't kite fire or Alakir with people who can't dodge squall lines, etc. etc. You call those people "bad." I call them my friends whom I want to play WoW with and not get angry at. I don't want to replace them with ... you.
5-24-2011 @ 2:58PM
@BlacksenOne could argue that a chain of successes benefits a team's morale more than a chain of failures. Yes, nerfing the T11 content with the release of T12 will produce a bunch of epic'd characters who don't know how to raid well -- but this increases the pool of geared players who can potentially fill in slows for Firelands raids. It eases gearing alts to also fill in slots. If the objective is to allow the broader playerbase to see the content, nerfing the content is better than overpowering the players. Though would you prefer if the T11 raids were instead made accessible by bringing back the ICC buff mechanic instead, which progressively increase player effectiveness instead of nerfing bosses?
5-24-2011 @ 3:38PM
"I don't believe they've mentioned doing that. You'll probably still need to kill one of the three end bosses to get those."With these changes, I think you mean you'll have to derp in the general direction of the three end bosses to get those.
5-24-2011 @ 3:45PM
Sure mistakes happen and in regular mode one simple mistake shouldn't wipe a raid, but when you allow strong players to carry oblivious players (not weak players, weak players can get better with practice, oblivious ones don't care to get better), then you perpetuate the system of being rewarded for bad behavior, ie being rewarded for intentionally not caring about the fight mechanics. THAT is what a great deal of people are afraid of, not people getting to play with their friends, if you and your friends genuinely want to play you'll care enough to at least try to learn some of the fights. When you bring your friends that don't want to play then you have players that don't want to be there and don't care about the fights- so if that is also the case don't bring people that don't want to come, friends or not.
5-24-2011 @ 5:05PM
Sorta curious what I got downvoted for. I'm all for raids with normal modes that are forgiving of an occasional mistake here or there, of people raiding with their friends assuming that everyone wants to be there. All I said is that you shouldn't be allowed to brute force your way through every mechanic in a fight, otherwise its just Patchwerk, and boring to everyone, in addition to rewarding people for intentionally ignoring fight mechanics.IMO fights are about learning to cooperate, if you don't cooperate as a whole, and difficulty for raid bosses should scale not based on gear but on how well a raid group cooperates with each other.
5-24-2011 @ 5:09PM
"You call those people "bad." I call them my friends whom I want to play WoW with and not get angry at. I don't want to replace them with ... you."JOHN! I LOVE YOU.This so ACCURATELY boils down the points I have been trying to make all day. /salute
5-24-2011 @ 6:04PM
Bear in mind, this nerf if for reg raids. They haven't said anything about touching heroics. So yes, you'll have an easier time with regs, but to truly be 1337 you need to do heroics.I see this as more of a quality of life nerf to regs, no more no less.
5-24-2011 @ 7:20PM
@John,"I call them my friends whom I want to play WoW with and not get angry at."I don't have a problem with that. That's a great goal! I'm the same way. I like to play with my friends too.Video games have never really been about "play with anyone at any skill level" though. You can just play with your friends in Halo, but if they're not any good at it (like me!) your group will not win very much and not have a fun time. Same for Starcraft. Those are against other players though, true. What about a single player game? Well, you could do Halo co-op...but you'll still get destroyed on the harder difficulties if your friends aren't any good. There you have the choice of a lower difficulty level. How about Portal 2? Well, I've not actually done the co-op yet, but if you and your friend can't solve the puzzles you aren't going anywhere. If there are any "shoot the portal at just this time" like there was in Portal 1 (which there probably are), you and your friend will need some level of coordination and reflexes.Many, many video games have required a certain "skill" or "competency" level to progress. This is true for both solo and multi-player. This is not a new concept at all. At it's heart, there is nothing wrong with the idea of a difficult video game. The place WoW runs into trouble is the lack of difficulty VARIETY. Halo has 4 difficulty levels. So does Starcraft 2. The Warcraft RTS had difficulty levels, as did Diablo. At the release of a current raid, it has a normal level and a hard level. It lacks that easy level that a significant portion of the playerbase likes. It's the "easy" level that lets you play with just about anyone, to get your friends into the raid even they just aren't very good. Interestingly, the only time WoW has had that Easy level present from the beginning of a raid was Naxxrammas. It wasn't present at the beginning of ICC. Well, the first few bosses were, but the rest of the place was pretty rough until the stacking buff hit.It's interesting. I don't recall such an outcry at the release of Ulduar, most of which was also very rough, but came right after the ease of Naxx. My guess is that it's mostly related to the lack of any raid content to run. Even with Ulduar, people could go back and run Naxx again if they wanted something to do. Also, it's possible the, uh, "easy raiding boom" didn't happen until later. Possibly people expected Naxx to be the exception, so when Ulduar was hard and not cleared by many, it was just business as usual. That mentality shifted with ToC and ICC. Interesting how it started shifting with ToC, despite how nasty the Faction Champions fight was.One of WoW's difficulties with, uh, difficulty lies in the "reason people raid." Overwhelmingly, it appears to me that people raid for loot. While loot is nice, it's a lot better to raid just for the fun of it. Perhaps that's just my perception. Maybe I'm wrong...but I don't think so. So in addition to the difficulty level, Blizzard has to balance the reward element. Plus, with raiding (partly due to that reward element) people tend to start at the lowest raid level and then move up. I worry that if an "easy level" was added that raiders who should be on normal would start at easy, then move up. This would contribute to burnout I think. A rough problem to solve for Blizzard.This is a lot longer than I intended, so back to the original point which is that historically, it is quite common for a video game to require some minimum competency level. This certainly varies from game to game, but I think it's pretty unique to MMOs to see this sort of "I want to play with my friends but can't" problem show up. Oh, I'm sure it's happened in many games, but the complaints don't crop up, probably because most other games are pretty static. Anyway, it's certainly a reasonable request that makes sense, but it's still seems odd to me. Not odd that you want to play with your friends, but odd that you want to alter the game to fit your needs. Most times, when a game is too hard people just find a new game. I'm not advocating that (well, to an extent I am, don't play something that's not fun!), but it's certainly more common to stop playing the game than to try to change it...except for MMOs. They are an odd creature indeed.
5-25-2011 @ 5:51AM
In Halo we could do free for all. Or play the campaign on easy. Bad or inexperienced players will be matched against each other. All of these things are designed to allow the whole game to be accessible to anybody.I think that heroic modes aren't much of a substitute for difficulty settings, though. You generally don't walk into a raid for the first time and flip it on heroic. They're more like artificial progression extensions. I think that they should be more akin to difficulties in other games.I do find it ironic that anyone is upset about nerfing the encounters in 4.2 anyways. If you're an elite player, go do the new hotness. No need for you to rub elbows with the unwashed masses. At least now more people will be able to get more value out of the game they're paying for. Whining about less skilled players being able to do a raid that you're not even gonna do anymore is quite silly.
5-25-2011 @ 2:48PM
A lot of these players that are so quick to QQ don't stop to think that two, maybe three months from now, their elitist guilds will wind up losing a handful of players that need to be replaced. A portion of these losses will inevitably be replaced by skilled players who took advantage of an easier gear curve due to getting into Cata later than others.A lot of these players that are so quick to QQ don't stop to think that at some point in the future, their elitist guild may not be the well oiled raiding machine that it is today. I used to be in a guild that I though would never collapse, having been together for years. Guess what, it did. And when the rug gets pulled out from underneath them, they may have to resort to raiding with people that took advantage of an easier gear curve to kick start their progression.A lot of these players that are so quick to QQ don't stop to think that they will get quite bored with whatever character they tend to raid with today, and that someday they would love to try playing an alt that, thanks to an easier gear curve, will have a much easier time getting brought up to par with relevant raid content.A lot of these players that are so quick to QQ don't stop to think. Period.
5-28-2011 @ 9:40AM
I suspect Blizz may also be "reaching out to the population of WoW players that are struggling to complete" heroic 5-man dungeons. I shut off my account three months ago when it became clear that you have to be in a raiding guild just to complete a heroic daily.The normal routine was "Wait 40 minutes in the queue, group wipes 5 minutes in, group breaks up; wait another 40 minutes in queue...."After completing only one heroic after about 15 tries, I said screw it.Oh, and now that the initial raids will be easier for casuals, will we be seeing a Raid Finder any time in the future? Because as I said, I ain't in a raiding guild and these guys are apparently the only ones who are seeing the insides of these joints.
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