Drama Mamas: The case of the good friend who's a bad tank
by Robin Torres 
May 27th 2011 at 9:00AM
Last week, we talked about getting unsolicited advice from strangers. This week, we talk about giving unsolicited -- but necessary -- advice to friends. Regardless of whether you like Lisa's or my answers, I think we all agree they are both better than GLaDOS's passive-aggressive approach.
Dear Drama Mamas,
I'm a raid leader in peril, and I'm and officer in a conundrum. I'm the leader of a small raid team, attempting to start the cataclysm wow content. We are a small social guild, and come together as a family tried to built a home in Azeroth for our family away from our real families. Each of my guild members are valued members of my online family. However, I do come from from the role of a fairly hardcore raider previously. I really enjoy the challenge of progressing through content. My problem is when these two worlds collide.
We have a tank, I'll call Penny. Penny is awesome! She is sweet, kind, generous, and one of my favorite people in guild. She works tirelessly to help out with mats, gear for others and is generally all around helpful. Ironically, she was also one of the best geared tanks when we started to raid. Geared yes, skillful, no. We are desperate to begin working through content. But, we do not want to do so at the cost of hurting a friend. She has a DPS off spec, but even she admits its worse than her tanking. HELP!
How can you tell a good friend, they are an awful tank?
Sincerely
A Friend AND a Raid leader
Drama Mama Lisa: If there were ever a good time for a problem like this, Friend and Leader, this is it! Your dilemma is not so dire today as it might have been before the Cataclysm era, for one simple reason: Gear's pretty easy to come by in this day and age.If the only reason Penny seems to be the inevitable choice as main tank is the strength of her gear, you only need to upgrade your other tanks. Especially with a team effort (a couple of guildies willing to fill out a group and pass on the necessary loot, getting some Chaos Orbs into the right hands and crafting a few key pieces), it doesn't take long at all to push even a fresh level 85 to raid-readiness. Figure out what to aim for by consulting our class columns for tailor-made pre-raid and heroic gear guides; you'll also find a list of gear guides over in our Guide to World of Warcraft: Cataclysm (scroll down just a tad beyond where this links).
With any gear disparity out of the equation, slipping someone else into that main slot the first time won't be so awkward. Still, there are a few more things you can do to soothe ruffled feathers.
- Get your other tank some raid experience. Find another raid group willing to take your tank along in any role, tanking or otherwise. It'll be pretty difficult to deny the advantages of using a tank who has first-hand experience with the encounters your group will be up against.
- Help Penny skill up. Whether she's only called upon to fill in or ends up serving as your off tank, she'll need to up her game. Scott Andrews wrote about exactly how to go about helping her accomplish this in Officers Quarters three whole years ago!
- Be there for her. The key is to not merely dump and run. As Scott outlines in the article I linked just above, offer concrete resources Penny can turn to for advice. More importantly, line up some guildmates who are willing to run heroics with her to polish her skills. Push into the troll 5-mans, and give her unhurried, stress-free opportunities to practice with trusted friends who get what's at stake.
- Handle the conversation with Penny with tact and care. Scott has still more good advice in a two-part series from last summer on how to offer constructive criticism to your raiders.
Drama Mama Robin: I think Lisa and Scott's advice is excellent and should work. To paraphrase Scott, you are fortunate that Penny is such a nice person, because that means she will probably take the kindly meant, well researched, constructive criticism very well. But, just to give you options, I am going to offer a more ... cowardly? underhanded? diplomatic! ... approach. Yeah. /nods vigorouslyMy diplomatic three-step plan is as follows:
- Identify the tank successor. It's all well and good to say Penny is an awful tank, but unless you have a viable alternative, it's just bellyaching. So who is the person who most wants to be the tank? If no one actually wants to take her place, someone has to bite the bullet and make the sacrifice for the team. (Why not you?)
- Approach Penny with the request. You can say that the new tank really, really wants to tank or that your guild should really have two adequately skilled and practiced main tanks. If the first choice is true, use that one. If not, use the second one. Ask her if she wouldn't mind helping out the team by heading up the task force to gear and train the new tank.
- Take the time to train and gear the new tank. Progression will be delayed for a bit, but should result in faster progression once you have a new tank.
Dodge the drama and become that player everyone wants in their group with a little help and insight from the Drama Mamas. Remember, your mama wouldn't want to see your name on any drama. Play nice ... and when in doubt, ask the Drama Mamas at robin@wowinsider.com.
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Drama Mamas
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 4)
DavidiousofAzeroth May 27th 2011 9:05AM
Wow, that was a SERIOUSLY lame video.
epicboyz May 27th 2011 9:18AM
i couldn't disagree more. but thats cuz i got a thing for meganekkos...
Kate May 27th 2011 6:19PM
I loved the video, but that could be because I like video game composers who dress up as scientists, sing Portal songs, and voice non-combatant pets in WoW.
shatto.a May 27th 2011 9:15AM
I recently had a similar experience with a healer. Great guy, good gear, he just wasn't doing well. One night, after the raid, myself and a fellow officer pulled him down a channel and gave him "the talk." We told him that he wasn't performing up to our standards, and we would have to move him down to the standby list and take another healer if he didn't shape up within the next couple of raids. We also told him where to find information, who to talk to, etc, and said we'd make ourselves available for heroic runs if he wanted to practice. We also told him that even if he wasn't raiding with us, that didn't mean he wouldn't be able to be part of the guild. He took a week off from raiding, but I'll be damned if he wasn't our best healer when he came back. He really put the effort into learning his spec, and it showed. Make sure you give the person a chance to shape up, and point them to the resources they'll need to do so.
Therinor May 27th 2011 9:29AM
Exactly. It might take a while, but I do believe it will work in pretty much every case AND the tank or healer will be grateful, feeling even more like part of the guild.
I was there too, but very early in game, and as a DPS, I really had no clue, but the guild didnt say "LOL, stay home, we'll get someone else". They did the same you did, they asked me to try to become better at it, and they showed me some great resources, which helped me get a start, instead of just going "Dude, shape up or you're out".
Maybe in a guild that tries to get world first, its absolutely essential to not lose any time on stuff like that, but I truly believe that a guild can be very helpful in such cases, and should be.
Xantenise May 27th 2011 9:36AM
I hope you told him this! Nothing makes me a happier healer than when someone compliments my ability, especially when a few people have died on a run and I still hear, "What, you think you're bad? If we had any other healer we'd have had FAR more deaths in a few hairy spots there!"
shatto.a May 27th 2011 9:44AM
@Xantenise: I believe my exact words to him were: "Holy fucking shit, buddy, way to pick it up!"
ambermist May 27th 2011 9:58AM
When I flipped from resto to moonkin in Wrath, I had NO IDEA about how to play DPS. I pretty much just made up a rotation based on what I thought made sense and went with that. As we progressed, my lack of skill became more and more apparent, until I was asked to sit one night for OS3D. Between that and one of the officers telling me that my ability was being questioned, I found all the inspiration I needed to go out and learn everything I could. I went from a really horrible moonkin to a pretty decent one by the end of Wrath.
There's one thing that was left out in the Drama Mamas advice that shatto.a's story brings to mind: Penny has to WANT to improve. Sometimes players think they're awesome and don't need improvement; other times players become insecure when their weaknesses are brought to light. If you catch her in the middle though, where she's insecure but wants to learn, she might shine brighter than any tank you've ever seen. Her personal drive to improve is going to play a big role on how well the advice given here is implemented.
shatto.a May 27th 2011 10:32AM
I'd also like to add: never, EVER utter the phrase "holding the group back." The only thing that's good for is making someone feel like shit. You need to let them know that they're absolutely wanted in the group, needed even, but that they need to improve.
Mortenebra May 27th 2011 10:42AM
To add to what Ambermist is saying in their last paragraph: Does Penny actually *want* to tank and/or like tanking?
I admit, it's a little early and I may have missed it but I don't think I read anywhere that Penny *wants* to tank. The OP, as DM Lisa pointed out, seems to state that Penny will be the inevitable tank due to gearing. Is it the fact that this tank/dps toon is her main (is it actually her main?) the indicator that Penny likes to tank and wants to tank?
The only reason I bring this up is because, especially in a small guild, some people will take action to do whatever they can to do what the guild wants. It's not like they're forced into the role, but more like they just really like helping out the guild and doing their best to make the guild thrive. Back in BC, I remember, there seemed to be a shortage of healers-- so, a few friends and I immediately dropped what we were doing and power-leveled healers (or a tank, since our main tank person also wanted to level a healer to fill the void).
When my guild does something together, we often ask, "Is [insert role here] what you want to do?" Some days I do feel like tanking or healing on my paladin. Some days, not so much... And, even if my hunter main has all the valor and justice points she can use, I'd stay on my hunter to stand there and pewpew than risk a further headache on my other toons, which subsequently affects the other four/nine people I'm running with. They know I play well if I'm thriving in my character and role, which in turn means I'm having fun and they're having fun-- even if we're wiping five million times on something. But if I feel pigeon-holed into tanking on a bad day, for example, because no one else wants to do it or whatever, I'm not having fun and the other might not be having fun either.
Sleutel May 31st 2011 7:37PM
This is exactly why the recommendation to passive-aggressively move Penny out of the MT spot is terrible. If she doesn't know she's performing badly, she'll never have the opportunity to improve. Part of being a leader is having the hard conversations, where you tell people how they're not measuring up. If you can't handle that, you shouldn't be in charge of a raid or a guild. Period.
Robin's advice may be intended to simply give this person more options, but IMO it's a terrible thing to do to someone who's counting on you for guidance. Lying to someone about why they're being replaced is childish and selfish: you're not doing it to help them as much as you're doing it to save yourself the pain of telling someone you like that they're not capable of the role they want to fill.
Leah May 27th 2011 9:17AM
What happened to the option of coaching her? No where did I see that he even offered to help her with some of her more glaring issues, positioning, rotation, cooldown management, etc. These are skills to be learned. These are skills that this "hardcore raider" should be able to impart.
It's not like being a tank is ever really explained in a de facto way in the WoW world. Maybe she just needs the tools to find that gap of knowledge.
Before you outright replace your "valued" friend, maybe you should try coaching her.
Therinor May 27th 2011 9:25AM
Agreed, because I think before they go ahead and tell Penny´, no matter how careful, that she needs to be replaced, helping her practice is the option Id pick first, because I do believe that she will be a better tank or better DPS if she gets some time to practice in a real heroic/raid environment with guildies.
I do believe though this was pointed at under "Help Penny skill up", even though it was aimed at her becoming a backup or off-tank.
Jabadabadana May 27th 2011 9:30AM
hardcore raider does not mean hardcore tank.
I am reminded again and again as a raid leader, just how much good, competent players often know next to nothing about other classes/roles, and how to do them.
Coaching requires knowing enough to coach. Coaching also requires telling someone they need coached. (and I think how to tell someone they have issues is part of the question here)
And personally as a tank, when I started trying to get good, I stole my priority flow-chart off tankspot, but I learned the nuances of the rest of it by just tanking a whole lot. Ran a whole lot of heroics, kept raiding, tried to think about what I could do better.
Which I suppose leads to my advice: get her, and everyone else you run with in the mindset of always trying to figure out how to improve. We can all improve, and the beat your personal best mindset is less insulting than "you're sucking, suck it up and get better."
Amaxe May 27th 2011 9:41AM
It's a good question. Perhaps there is a good answer as to why not as well.
But it is puzzling to see it was never even considered as an option.
Lissanna May 27th 2011 10:10AM
I believe Lisa's "help penny skill up" (if you follow though to the link she suggested), followed by "be there for her" accomplishes this.
Straz May 27th 2011 10:15AM
The hardest part of tanking these days is situational awareness. If she can learn to watch her surroundings, the other stuff will fall into place with ease.
The best thing to do in this situation is to be honest. Let her know that she needs improvement and that raiding as a team requires everyone to have a certain amount of skill. And stress to her that without a strong tank, the rest of the raid is going to struggle along with her. If she's that sweet of a girl, she'll understand. And if she's as great as the writer claims, it will give her something to aim for. Giving her a goal, and helping her achieve that goal, will not only resolve the issue but cement your guild together as a tight-knit group that knows each others' nuances and tendencies.
If she doesn't improve, then you'll have to explain to her that you guys really like having her around but in order to progress and have fun, you need a stronger tank. Maybe suggest to her that she could reroll an easier to play dps class.
Either way, honesty is going to be your best bet. I'd also talk to her on vent so she doesn't read into a chat log wrong.
Annalietta May 27th 2011 10:36AM
I'm thinking maybe Penny has the same problems I have. I've got the best gear gold and reputation can buy, I know my class inside out, I know the best rotation, I've read up on encounters and boss-fights. Trouble is I'm slow and I tend to get confused and/or flustered easily. For those reasons I've never progressed further than 5-man heroics and I only do those as guild runs with my friends, as they are (a lot) more overbearing than a PUG.
Now, my guild doesn't need me to tank, heal or even DPS in raids. We're a big enough guild to have room for raiders and non-raiders alike and I've never felt a pressure to raid. But reading Friend and Raid Leader's question I sense a pressure on Penny. He writes about her DPS off spec that "even she admits it's worse than her tanking". So Penny knows that her tanking is bad, but the guild needs her to tank raids? This doesn't sound good to me. Let her of the hook and find another tank.
Maybe I'm reading the situation wrong, but coaching doesn't seem to be considered and I think that might be because Penny's problems, like mine, cannot be remedied.
bluesky_v2.01 May 27th 2011 11:15AM
Maybe I have a different set of priorities than some people who play WoW but I just can't picture replacing a good friend of mine in a raid because they suck at the game.
No matter how gently you put it, it boils down to you saying that progression is more important to you than your friends. And that's crazy!
At the same time, I would be totally honest with them. If they suck, I'll straight up tell them that and then I would do everything I can to help them get better at the game.
But I would never pose it as an ultimatum in a "get better or we're going to replace you" kind of way.
Sahara May 27th 2011 5:08PM
What has really helped me and some other inexperienced raiders in a small guild, because I/we KNOW that we're not very good at tanking, was to have someone who did know tanking hop in vent with us, grab a 5 man guild party, and start with the easiest instance (at the time, it was Heroic UK).
The coach would walk me through, giving prompts to start, tips for how they like to pull certain tough groups and why that tip works and how I could adjust it to be useable in any instance that has X scenario. Then we worked through the next harder instance, giving less walkthrough unless I asked or he noticed how I could improve. When the coach would notice pulls that I could use to practice certain skills, like marking cc (even if we didn't really need cc because it WAS after all an easy heroic) or Line-Of-Sight, he would say "let's use X on this pull." By the end of 2 or 3 of those, I was doing so much better!
Having all guildies in there committed to helping me succeed (and patient! ) made a big difference too. Like Drama Mamas said, it's also about the guild committing to help the tank succeed which helps everyone in the long run. (Sometimes the coach would secretly whisper guildies to pull dumb stunts so that tank could practice recovering. Of Course, he would pipe in if I panicked and say something like "you know what to do, we've practised this, drop DnD...." or w/e the situation needed!)
I know alot of the commentors have suggested just pointing Penny toward good resources, but as a visual/experiential learner, I can't emphasize enough how much of a resource a good guild party can be!