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All of the latest Mists of Pandaria newsOfficers' Quarters: The constant complainers
by Scott Andrews 
May 30th 2011 at 2:00PM
Just about every guild has its complainers. The bigger your community, the more you'll have to deal with members who think you're single-handedly out to drive the guild into the ground, and they are the only ones standing between you and wholesale destruction. Perhaps I'm overdramatizing, but sometimes it can certainly feel that way. Some complainers can be positively relentless.
This week's email comes from an officer who's afraid the complaints are about to force his guild leader to take drastic action.
Hey, I'm an officer of a medium-sized raiding guild that currently has two 10-mans and working on getting a third. During ICC we had three 10-mans, which we will call A, B, C and a 25-man [...] When we began raiding, we only had enough raiders to form one 10-man Raid A. Two months later, we got enough people to form another raid B, and a few weeks after that we form the last one Raid C. Everything was going good, all the raids where progressing [at] a similar pace, we down Lich King a few times, did a few heroic modes, than decided to close down our 25-man raid a few weeks before Cataclysm because of attendance issues.
Than a bombshell dropped, one of our raiders (we shall call him Jon[...]) posted that he was concerned with our move to 10-man raiding in Cataclysm (basically not having a raid). We quickly addressed this issue saying that there would be two 10-mans at least with the possibility of a third, Problem solved, at least we thought. Then one of our [raiders] (who we will call Bob) posted a very long post on forums. He stated that while the GL [...] and I were excellent guild leaders [...] the other officers were effectually a joke. He went on to say that the Guild does not come together on anything, stating the last guild event he considered significant was our last ICC 25-man raid. Stated that during most days there is maybe five people online, "A WoW guild that does not raid, dies." (Despite us saying that we are done raiding until Cataclysm.) [...]
After many (long) posts and the Leadership of the guild explaining their stance or addressing his concerns we found out what the problem was. He didn't like the fact there was an "A team" or progression 10-man raid. Which there wasn't, Raid A just started two months before the other ones. So the officers got together for Cataclysm and decided on raid rosters that divided up the officers and "core" players into fairly equal groups. Everything is hunky dory. Or at least we thought.Wow, if the level of complaining has reached the point that your guild leader is talking about quitting the game over it, then it's gotten pretty serious.
A few months later, we now have two 10-man raids (we'll call them One and Two), both at about the same point; each having the same number of bosses down, just different ones. Then him and one of his buddies says they are fed up with the lack of progression in their raid (One), and wants a raid with the best players in it to have a "Progression Raid". *head desk*
It was at this point that the GL says to us (the officers) that everyday he logs in, it's some new problem or complaint with or about Bob or Jon and he was sick of it. He is going to give the guild to someone else and quit playing WoW. And it's not just him either, we are all fed up and frustrated with the both of them. But none of us are really big on /gkicking people.
So, To /Gkick or to not /Gkick? Or is there another way?
Anonymous
I can completely understand the frustration of trying to explain your policies to players who don't seem to understand why things can't just always be the way they want them to be. I can also sympathize with the agony of listening to seemingly conflicting complaints from the same source. Neither of these situations, unfortunately, are uncommon in online gaming. Some people just love to complain. They see it as both their right as members and their duty to "improve the guild."
However, you can resolve these situations without walking away from the game.
Regain control
First, don't let the complainers take over your WoW time. If you dismiss them, they'll only bring up the same problems tomorrow. On the other hand, if you indulge them and let them complain whenever they want to, you may find yourself participating in a daily gripe session.
Rather, set up a time with the perennial complainers to hash out their specific issues. Don't overwhelm them with the entire officer corps if you have a lot of high-ranking members. Two or three officers is a good number for a talk like this. It's important to have other officers who can provide a different perspective. Also, if it's just you, then your arguments take on the air of a dictator's pronouncements.
Prior to this meeting, don't let the complainers approach you. Tell them to save it for the meeting, and enjoy your brief reprieve.
Talk it over
Then get together at the designated time and hash it out with these members. If possible, use voice chat software. These types of talks tend to go better when people can hear inflection. Also, voice chat means only one person can speak at a time -- that keeps the conversation from becoming too scattered.
Talk with them about their concerns frankly and explain to them exactly what the officers will and will not do to address those concerns. Try to address as many problems as you can. Let the complainers get it all out of their system.
Be confident during this confrontation but not emotional. It sounds like your guild is doing pretty well overall, so don't let their naysaying and bellyaching ruin your enthusiasm. At the same time, don't be afraid to admit it when they make a good point. Just remember that a good point on paper doesn't always translate to a practical solution.
If you have to turn down their suggestions, do your best to explain why, even if you're already told them in the past. Repetition can be more effective than you might think. Sometimes people have to hear things five times before the information sinks in.
Follow up and carry on
Once you've all heard each other out, take any outstanding issues back to the other officers, make decisions, and then call for another brief meeting to tell them what you intend. At the end of the meeting, explain that the matters at hand are now closed to further discussion.
From here, the complainers essentially have the choice to either stay in the guild without further criticism or to leave. That puts the ball in their court. If they decide to stay, make it clear that you won't listen to more griping. By staying, they are agreeing to the way things have been decided, and they have to accept the guild that way.
The only outcome here where you might need to gkick someone is if a player continues to complain despite everything you've said and done. Give him one final warning. At that point, if he doesn't shut up, you can kick him without remorse. Hopefully it won't come to that!
/salute
Recently, Officers' Quarters has examined how strong new leadership can create a guild turnaround, the pitfalls of promising more than you can deliver, and lessons learned from Scott's own guild demise. Send your own guild-related questions and suggestions to scott@wowinsider.com.
Filed under: Officers' Quarters (Guild Leadership)
Reader Comments (Page 4 of 4)
Amaroese May 30th 2011 7:31PM
I love how everyone is saying "kick them, kick them" when really, all viewpoints should be observed.
I personally have been on both sides of the coin. People didn't like what I had to say but I vocalized what some people were thinking: Sure, you could get 10 people to kill the Lich King but when you added 15 other people, things got hairy. People think you can steamroll heroic 25 Lich King but you have people who have accidents, or perform poorly. It may be "old content" with a 30% buff, but you'll still have those kinds of things that happen.
People still wipe on Twin Emperors. People wipe on Flame Leviathan. People wipe on Hogger, if you would still believe it.
It is as much on the person who speaks as the person who listens as how things are perceived. The biggest issue is that, instead of the topic. How many people would actually do that, though? It's easier to just say "QQ moar scrub" and gkick or simply huff, puff, and say you're the one that's right.
That being said, it's hard to find that balance. The people who can find that are the true gems that should be cherished.
ashtin May 30th 2011 8:31PM
but we won't because the elitest acting players in this game want all the content for themselves lol. I play more than one mmo at the same time as wow and the community there is nowhere this selfish with content or derogatory towards people who just want to play and have fun and not work 40 hours a week at a game. Because they take it for what it is just a video game. If I could legally sell my wow account and it not be against the tos I would.
Kurash May 30th 2011 9:24PM
You know, Ashtin, I've looked at your previous posts. You'd think that, considering that you use the word "elitist" as often as you do, that you'd actually learn how to spell it.
"ELITIST." It does not end in "est." It is not a superlative. You should learn how to spell and use the word if you insist on using it.
JattTheRogue May 30th 2011 11:36PM
In any of these columns based on letters (Officer's Quarters, Drama Mamas, any others that answer questions at different times), we can only know what is written and address that problem. Maybe the circumstances are actually completely different and the "complainers" are the ones in the right and the writer is in the wrong. But we can't know that. So people are answering the question that was posed, using the given information. If what the letter writer said was true, they prevailing opinion is that they should be kicked (which I agree with). If the letter isn't true, then who knows what the situation is?
Saying "Look at both sides of the issue" can work as advice for the letter writer but is a completely useless admonition to an audience that only has one side to look at.
Fluufykins May 30th 2011 8:53PM
You can't please all of the people all of the time, but you can smack some of the people with a shovel some of the time.
Well, something like that.
Point is, you'll never get 25 (or even 10) people to agree on everything. Hell, GL's can't even get an entire raid to agree on who should get priority for a B-rez, let alone who should be on the A team, as invariably everyone suddenly deserves to be on the A team.
My advice is to spell it out, explain that this is how it's going to be (as decided by whoever(s) is supposed to make the call as per guild infrastructure), and that anyone who feels that this is not in sync with their gaming desires is free to go elsewhere with no hard feelings. If they're not happy, let them leave on good terms, and then everyone is still friends later when you're on your 6th "restructured" guild as each person takes their turn at being in charge. It happens all the time, so just do your best to help them make a flat out decision one way or the other, and then everybody go where they want without the drama. It'll make everyone's life easier in the long run.
Jason Ralph May 30th 2011 9:29PM
This is why I refuse to a officer or raid leader, or even guild leader.
The hallmark if a true leader, and one I'll gladly follow is when you have the ability to take a knucklehead or two, in Bob and John's case, and turn them around to being productive members of a guild. I understand there's only so much one can do in a leadership position in a video game, but it's part of the responsibility that comes with leadership.
The question on the table really is what has Bob and John's guild leadership done to get and promote the best of it's members? I'm pretty sure you'd discover that there's guildies lagging behind others (not in gear but SKILL). Why don't you have them invest into that person? Have them teach your noobs and newbs? Things like that where you put power and responsibility onto their shoulders will help them discover that being a leader, and bringing together a group of people who are all different, is challenging. More importantly, you may find Bob and John leaving the guild, as people such as you describe generally can't teach others at all.
FYI if you're a raider, are you teaching the new players in your guild? Both new to WoW and to the class/role? If not, why? Nothing improves YOUR skill better and faster than teaching someone. You may find your raid replacements in house (guild). Food for thought.
Elethiem May 30th 2011 9:30PM
A guild I was in for Wrath had an A Team for Ulduar. As soon as they killed Yogg, we spread them out amongst the other teams. We had an A team for ICC. They left to form a new guild. 3 months into Cata after I left, they formed another A team which killed the B team and they left for other guilds.
If you are going to have an A Team, use them to clear the content. Once they have, disband it and spread them around the other teams to get people in there.
Lipstick May 30th 2011 11:12PM
It's clear this subject touched a nerve with a lot of people, but to some degree I think that the complainers have a right to complain.
Deciding to go from running 25's to simply running 10's without discussing things with your raiding base -- is going to upset a few people. For some people it's a very big deal because their enjoyment in raiding is tide up heavily in the scale of the experience. Not to mention that with the change of raid size, the number of drops each week, per boss is reduced considerably on 10's. Which can to some degree (imo) effect how long it takes for you to fill certain difficult to fill slots if you're prone to bad luck. There is more at work here than simply "not being a team player" or being "a complainer".
As 10 man groups go along, especially when there is an A team and there is a B team -- there will be situations where people in guild compare notes, and there can entirely too easily be a perception that each group is carrying a bit of dead weight. Dead weight as a concept didn't go away just because guilds are now sometimes exclusively 10 man guilds or 25's.
It's possible the "complainers" had their original complaints satisfied, but after 8 weeks or so of wiping on the same "easy" to their mind bosses to the same people who refuse to learn, how to move out of an encounter mechanic -- they might get fed up and frustrated.
The part of the OP letter that struck out to me was the part where one of their core raiders seemingly "out of the blue" posted a long and lengthy post on their forum that described the ineffectual leadership of the guild amongst other things. If the officer core is truly in touch with the vibe of their guild, this feeling shouldn't of come as a shock to the officers, they should of been aware for a while this particular person was unhappy, or at least had an inkling. In this case, the lack of their prior clue, and the fact they just "Decided" without discussing it with the guild as a whole .. and express annoyance that their opinion was being questioned on this issue leads me to believe the complainers are not necessarily the bad guys in this scenario.
They were probably put in a position where the guild they had helped build and mature over a long period of time was suddenly morphing into something which didn't necessarily meet their needs any more. They had made long term friendships or when the decision was made the officer core wasn't 100% sure or firm on what they said was going to happen and probably had a "lets just see how this goes.." mentality. This puts them in the position where they have to sacrifice what makes them happy for the greater good of the guild. Players will continue to hang on past the point they're happy for quite a while sometimes out of obligation, fear of the unknown, or feeling like they might lose their friendships with their existing guildees if they leave guild and find a different one.
In my travels throughout wow, I often joke that I'm "a loud mouth" and to just ignore me. There is some truth in that -- I am very much a straight shooter, I wont tell you the sky is green just because you think it's green -- I'll tell you it's blue if I think it's blue. I wont lie, or sugar coat anything and if I'm not happy -- I'm just going to come out and say it. My personality either wins people over as they appreciate my honesty, or it grates people the wrong way. I don't go out of my way to be a jerk. I never purposefully try to hurt anyone's feelings, and I do try to bite my tongue in certain situations where I feel the situation warrants it. But for the most part with me, what you see is what you get.
You'd be surprised how many times people in the guilds I've been in have approached -me- to carry their concerns to the officer core, because they were too intimidated to do so themselves. Some people might consider me a complainer, others realize that I don't do anything just for myself -- and my feedback is as honest from my point of view as it can be. In just about every guild I am in, the officer core in addition to it's members seek me out for my honest opinion about something.
Having people in your guild willing to provide you feedback about how you are doing -- what makes them unhappy -- and what they'd like to see changed isn't a bad thing. It's an asset. Too many people NEVER speak up. How many times have you been in a guild where someone just ninja server/faction changes without a word. Or just stops logging in and then one day it says "so and so has left the guild." ? You obviously can't win 'em all, but those are clearly losses. When people leave without ever telling you why they were unhappy you've lost, as an officer or a GM of a guild. You've either created an environment where people aren't happy, or people aren't comfortable telling you how they feel. They never even gave you a chance to fix it. That reflects on them, but also the officer core.
My advice to the OP is also to have a sit down conversation with this person, and legitimately hear them out. I agree the constant squeaky wheel thing should stop, but I disagree you ought to give them the "this is your only chance to speak or you'll be gkicked" advice. There needs to be clear boundaries, absolutely -- but this situation developed because there were none to begin with.
I think going forward this officer core should go out of their way to encourage MORE feedback, not leave the guild because of it, or discourage it.
ashtin May 30th 2011 11:32PM
@Kurash Thanks I do know how to spellz quitesz wells thankz youze veryz muchsz. iifz I careds whats grammaers nazisz likes yous thoughts abouts mes Is woulds has quits zees wurlds ofs worcarfts lungs temes ugos. By the way please feed me more of your tears Kurash.
Kurash May 31st 2011 12:20AM
The reason people tell you to check your spelling is because if you spell horrendously then it is clear that actually writing your thoughts down is not important to you. With that in mind, why should they be important to us? Why should we take them seriously if you yourself don't?
This is only made worse by posts like the one above, where you are specifically saying you don't care to present your opinions in any type of coherent fashion. Fine: then none of us will feel obligated to take you seriously.
Also... why do you assume that people who disagree with you, or correct you, are either crying or raging? Does it make you feel better to think that only people at emotional extremes would disagree with you? Because I'm not sad or angry; I'm trying to help you. :)
Kittyfox May 31st 2011 2:14AM
As an officer in a guild - a guild that I have invested years in - I have found that a lot of the people that complain, start trouble in guild chat, rant in trade, hate post on forums, rage quit - are people that rarely contribute to the guild, and have more likely than not been in it for a comparatively short time. There have been times when our guild has absorbed refugee raiders, and they ALWAYS have an opinion on raiding and the way our guild is run. The bottom line is, when someone refuses to be a part of the whole, when he trolls guild chat looking for fights, when he seems to cause drama with every word that oozes from his hate happy fingers, begging for attention from the online community... that's not someone that's going to help raid progression anyway. Another thing people like to throw around is that officers are bullies. While true in some cases, the people in our guild who are officers are there to help the guild progress as a whole, to keep the peace, and to run Ring of Blood and the like for guildies' alts when no one else will. lol It IS the GM's guild; the rules aren't suggestions, they are law. If someone is unhappy with the guild he is in, he should either start his own or find one that suits. A parting thought; if someone is going to be an idiot in the guild, I have to assume he's going to be an idiot outside of it as well; I have to ask myself, 'Is this the kind of person I want representing our guild in the WoW world?'
ashtin May 31st 2011 2:34AM
@kurash no your not really your trying to troll me back. @kittyfox. I understand where you come from on that subject to some degree but I look at it like this. When I've told people I play wow and try to get them to play they refuse. You know what their number one answer is? The nasty community of hardcore players. That right there is what keeps two of my friends from playing the game. They both tried a trial saw how the gear toting, epeen toting elite acting crowd were acting in the channels and had enough and quit before the trial was even over with. So now I no longer tell any of my friends I play this game.
edgeblade69 May 31st 2011 7:43AM
I can empathize with both sides here. I never got to do much raiding in Vanilla or TBC as our guild wasn't really large enough at the time (recall that Vanilla was 40-man) and in TBC I didn't come in til 4-5 months after release and quit the game before I caught up the rest of the level 70s in terms of gear (due to the fact that instances were much harder to get groups for then and gear never dropped for my character). Then in WOTLK during the beginning of that, I was in the same guild still, but it was a case where they had too many people for 1 10-man group and too few for 2 10-man groups or 1 25-man group. So some people had to sit out each raid if there were more than 10 on that wanted to raid. Usually that meant I had to sit out because apparently they were unwilling to sub in someone, which I can kinda understand, since no one wants to give up their raid spot, but still, their excuse was that I didn't have the gear for whatever they were working on, which while true, was not entirely my fault. I couldn't get the gear I needed without raiding lower tier content and they were unwilling to help me or others gear up and thus I eventually left that guild because of that.
TLDR: Yes, these guys are being hypocritical and perhaps childish but what the officers should've done is to either kick them or talk to the people who are struggling with downing the content and find out why and see if they can be helped (either through strategy, gear, class knowledge, or anything else). That being said, their shouldn't be an "A Team" and a "B Team" because it can make the "B Team" feel inferior. Just pick a group name or use a "Member Name's Group" concept.
rukamich May 31st 2011 9:13AM
"A WoW guild that does not raid, dies."
The two 6-year-old guilds I'm in beg to differ.
Anyway, these guys are just bad news. They're never going to be happy and if they can be replaced, I'd suggest /gkicking (or suggesting that they quit on their terms right when you tell them that their help is no longer needed or desired) before they do more to influence other raid members. It sounds like those two are really the only people complaining in a guild where the other raiders are (basically) satisfied and happy.
jfofla May 31st 2011 11:52AM
If someboft uses the term "is a joke", stop reading there, and ignore them forever.