Drama Mamas: The etiquette of loot runs for cash
by Robin Torres 
Jun 2nd 2011 at 4:00PM
The whole point of a lullaby is to lull the child to sleep, something Mr. Ricky Gervais loses sight of in the above video. The whole point in building up the guild bank funds is to support guild raids -- but isn't that also the whole point of proper gear distribution? Does the guild in this week's letter miss the point, or did they just improperly handle the situation?
Dear Drama Mamas,
I am a core raider in a comfortable semi-hardcore 25 raiding guild and I am quite frankly, shocked. Recently our guild has progressed deeply into Hard modes territory here in Cataclysm content, our first Heroic kill being Halfus (and our longest heroic boss on farm). I am grateful that we are finally getting somewhere after going through some rough obstacles, our hard work has rewarded us nicely. However the issue we face now is how much gold our guild bank has, currently we have quite a bit saved up for repairs, flasks, and feasts. The thing that worries me is that our officers are going a little crazy over this. This past week we sold some heroic chest pieces and rotting non-set pieces which drop off Heroic Halfus that people already had. I am OK with this because I am one of those people who gotten their heroic chest and happen to be on a rotting token already.
We killed Halfus, and the Raid Leader was exchanging the rot loot for gold and I find out that some not rotting loot was getting sold as well to the buyers we brought with us. I really can't imagine what was going through their minds when they were willing to sell loot some our main core raiders still needed, I did what I thought was right and pointed out calmly in a tell that I understood that we need gold to fund our hard modes and that I don't think I should forfeit to someone who is paying a ridiculous amount of gold for something that I have yet to receive my self. Suffice to say I got a bad guilt trip after getting the epic that I wanted and I've been feeling pretty crappy about it since it happened not to mention all the snark from other people, more importantly I feel like a complete lootwhore. Was I right to fight for something I wanted (and rightfully earned)? Should I have let them sell off something I didn't have so they could make more money for the bank? How should I even treat this incident? Please help!
Sincerely,
Shocked
Drama Mama Robin: In order to avoid loot drama, the leaders of the loot run (whatever its nature) must be explicit at the outset what the rules are. If your raid leader had made it clear before the run that all loot would be sold to the wealthy buyers, then you could have decided beforehand if you were willing to spend your time for just gold rather than loot and gold. Making it a nebulous "some" or "at our discretion" isn't fair to either the buyers or the guildies.Did the RL in fact inform you beforehand that there was a chance of something you needed being sold? If so, then your guildies have every right to be annoyed at your behavior. But that does not seem to have been the case.
Unfortunately, while the leaders are to blame for being unclear, placing blame is not going to improve your relationship with your guild. Here's what I recommend:
- Suggest some gold-only runs be done for wealthy buyers. State that you will be happy to attend with the idea that everyone goes in knowing that no loot will go to anyone but the buyers.
- Set up a gear wishlist forum thread on your guild's site, with your officers' permission. Request that all of the raiders list what specific gear they are looking for to complete their raiding sets, along with where it drops. If it's clear what the holes are in your guild's raiding gear, the leaders can make appropriate decisions as to what things to sell in combo loot/gold runs ahead of time.
- Volunteer to help some lesser-geared guildies in heroics.
Drama Mama Lisa: What I'm wondering is if the officers were planning to leapfrog over the drops they were selling and snag hard mode loot for guild members. Perhaps they were planning to prioritize those of you who didn't have certain drops with hard mode versions. It's hard to say exactly how well thought-out their plans were -- but whatever was in the works, of course, it should have been crystal clear to every single guild member first.At this point, if I were you, I think I would keep an eagle eye out for loot irregularities. Have the guild policies been clarified since this incident? What about the rules for the pickup raids? More importantly, do you feel confident that the rules are transparent and that guild members are being treated fairly? There's nothing remotely inappropriate about being curious and asking for details about the loot process in your own guild. If you sense you're treading on uncomfortable territory, you may want to ask why it's so touchy.
As long as loot distribution seems to be going off without a hitch, though, you can chalk things up to an oversight or misunderstanding and turn your attention back to the social fallout from this little incident. Let's hope that a good portion of the snark you're getting is merely a little rib-poking fun. Still, it has to feel awkward to have been the one to blow the whistle -- and Robin's right, you've definitely got some public image polishing ahead. As long as you're obviously doing your part in guild raids and following whatever loot rules are in place, though, it's just a matter of time until your epics are no longer the hot topic of conversation.
Dodge the drama and become that player everyone wants in their group with a little help and insight from the Drama Mamas. Remember, your mama wouldn't want to see your name on any drama. Play nice ... and when in doubt, ask the Drama Mamas at robin@wowinsider.com.
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Drama Mamas
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Maccabeus Jun 2nd 2011 4:16PM
I agree with Robin. If your raid leaders said that any piece was up for grabs, then yeah, that was whorish. However, if they only planned on selling pieces that the raid didn't need, then you had every right to step in and say, "Ay! Thats my loot, fella."
Snuzzle Jun 2nd 2011 4:22PM
Loot rules just need to be stated clearly up front with as little room for loop-holes as possible. For example:
"Guild members will have first dibs on all loot, whether for main spec or offspec. If guild members opt to pass on the loot, then it will be open to buyers for purchase. Highest bidder wins. This applies to BOEs and BOPs. Those for whom the item is useful will take priority for BOEs and they must equip the item immediately."
I would be just fine joining that run, both as a guildie or a non-guilded buyer.
"All loot is open to the highest bidder, be it BOE or BOP. Guild members will be bidding along with non guild members for loot."
Both of those are examples of loot rules with are clear, and therefore fair. There's no room for debate or drama. The officers, IMO, need to sit down with each other and work out what the loot rules and goals of these buyer runs are and then make them crystal clear, both to guildies and to prospective buyers. They can make an open forum post on their website that visitors can see, and link it when they advertise their runs or make a macro to spam at the start of each run.
Either way, they need to make the rules clearer and then stick to them so this does not happen again.
Khoonda Jun 2nd 2011 4:24PM
Hmmm why does said guild need some much more gold then what they are most likely getting thru the Cash perk?
if you have all the tabs, etc etc what is your guild buying?
If you ask me Guild could save alot of trouble by having most raiders be independent as in bring your own flasks, buffs, chants and what not and use the gold mainly for repairs
Eirik Jun 2nd 2011 7:21PM
Sleeply little guild I'm in, we were getting maybe 100g a day from Cash Flow perk, from the whole guild. Which wasn't enough to pay for repairs, really.
But as we don't raid a LOT, and the guild bank was in fair excess to what we needed, they opened up repairs in a limited way. I still put gold in to pay for the repairs I take out, most times, to help keep it that way. At ~50g per day per person for repairs, we COULD go through quite a lot of gold fairly quickly.
Eldoron Jun 2nd 2011 8:37PM
100g every day... so what? Here in Europe you show up for a raid with your own food and your own flasks. Oh and you pay your own repairs -_-
Shadda Jun 2nd 2011 9:30PM
Nice to hear that's how you do it in Europe. :D
My guild provides cauldrons, feasts, and up to 200g in repairs a night, BUT we also reward players who donate flasks/fish with EP (Think DKP) so it keeps us pretty well stocked. We're also a very large guild, so we make a lot of gold from quests/guild challenges.
Lloren Jun 2nd 2011 4:33PM
I'd say that on one hand, if your guild was setting up a run and notified everyone of which pieces were being sold should they drop, then you shouldn't have made a stink and expected the drop for yourself. On the other hand, and more importantly IMO, your guild shouldn't be offering drops for sale that its members still need. The best way to do this if they want to continue to do similar runs in the future is to set up a forum where everyone can list what loot they still need from each boss, and not offer any of that loot for sale until the members have received it. It is counterproductive to a raid group to gear people who aren't part of the team, but it also isn't fair to bring someone in offering to buy a piece of gear, have it drop, and then say whoops! Jk! Can't have it! Sorry you got saved to our hardmode run, lolz.
slim1256 Jun 2nd 2011 4:33PM
OK - I apologize for being dumb, but I couldn't figure this out at all: what sense are the words "rot" and "rotting" being used in here?
Eudeyrn Jun 2nd 2011 4:46PM
When a piece of BoP gear cannot be used by anyone in the raid, it is left to "rot" on the corpse - that is, it is not looted.
slim1256 Jun 2nd 2011 4:57PM
Ahhh - that makes sense. Thank you.
Kurtis Jun 2nd 2011 5:00PM
I'm assuming it to mean old/stale stuff. I.e. nobody wants or needs it anymore, so it would otherwise be sold off (vendor) or sharded in the case of BoP or sold on the auction house, etc. for BoE.
Kurtis Jun 2nd 2011 5:02PM
Geez, WoW Insider, another level of comment-system suckage... when I started my reply 2 minutes ago, there weren't any others. When the page reloads, the oldest reply is 15 minutes old?
Azurite Jun 2nd 2011 11:56PM
@Kurtis:
Just because you started writing your reply 2 minutes ago, it doesn't mean you OPENED the article 2 minutes ago. You must've opened it 15 minutes ago and decided to reply 13 minutes later. During those 13m, other users replied.
Kurtis Jun 3rd 2011 12:41PM
That sort of makes sense, except that's not what happened because I'd navigated away and then came back to answer the question. And I've noticed in the past that comments sometimes take a while to appear, or the front page will say there are 5 comments but when I go to the article there are none, etc.
Saeadame Jun 2nd 2011 4:34PM
A 25 man guild seriously needs more money? My 25 man guild has around 500,000g in the bank and my guild leader regularly takes out ~50,000g to buy herbs for cauldrons, enchanting supplies, gems, etc for the guild bank, but I don't think we've dropped below the 500k mark in quite a while. And we have guild repairs. What does your guild do with its money that it needs more?
But yeah, pieces that are still needed by raiders should definitely go to raiders unless it's specifically stated from the get-go that they're going to the buyers. Miscommunication on the guild officer's part, needs to be addressed.
Scooter Jun 2nd 2011 5:01PM
The whole concept of loot whoring always bugged me. While yes I can see legit uses for the term often times it's misused in prejudice just as the writer has described. Thinking that the people who put the time and effort in to have obtained the item is not being a loot whore. In fact, it's quite the exact opposite. He would be a whore if he didn't speak up and in that same regard the raid leader would be his pimp.
When you are in a raid you work as a team. The effort is shared as is the reward. If no prior consent was given or at least an clear announcement by the raid leader then you sir are in the right.
At this point, your raid leader should be squashing any malcontent with your guild/ fellow raiders. Sadly this is reality so it's doubtful they will step up like that.
Pyromelter Jun 2nd 2011 5:57PM
Here is what I bet happened:
The guild leaders did not know that the item in question was "non-rot" - in other words, they probably though that it was something that everyone in the guild that wanted it, already had it. I'm guessing they thought that pretty much all of the Halfus loot was rot, which is why they were selling it. Their only mistake in this case was ASSUMING it was rot, when it actually wasn't.
Other than that, what Robin said is right, as Scott Andrews has also made this point many times - loot and raid rules need to be clear and enforced 100%. If there was ambiguity in terms of the selling of loot, this is definitely the fault of the raid leaders.
OP needs to make sure 2 things happen, one in the guild, and one for Shocked himself:
1. Make sure the guild has clear loot rules, with a defined way of knowing when an item is truly "rot" that will be sold to pugs.
2. After that, the OP needs to just lay low for a while, not cause and ripples or waves. Halfus and a lot of cata bosses are old content by now, and having an issue like this at the end of a raid tier is not a huge deal. Don't make it any bigger deal than it is. Once Firelands comes out, one would hope that you wouldn't be bringing gold-spending pugs to progression, so this should be a non issue for a while once the next patch hits.
blessthemartyrguild Jun 2nd 2011 6:24PM
Being a GM myself I can understand the selling of loot, while many will bring up the guild perk...that doesn't even come close to covering full raid expenses on a weekly basis. While I know we have enough gold I also know come firelands that the boe cash flow will stop, however the bottom line imo is this....you sound like a progression raiding guild and you make it sound like this was the normal run(I.e. not showing will have negative consequence) the fact that you had to say something is a red flag. Loot is a raids tool to further the raid gold doesn't do that.
Eirik Jun 2nd 2011 7:42PM
This letter puzzles me a whole lot, and not simply on the "loot whore" issue.
Why would a guild try to raise funds for raiding by raiding that same content with "clients"? The only way I can see that being cost effective is for the costs to be estimated up front (or tallied afterwards) and the client pay a flat fee to cover costs + profit regardless of loot.
Why would a guild that IS running "clients" not be clear to all about which loot was spoken for - for both the client AND the "employees"? As other folk have noted, without a specific policy in place, both sides can get a raw deal. Possibly on the same loot.
It sounds like this was started without a lot of thought beforehand, rather than as a business venture with profits and losses, and little to no formal rules at all. It sounds ripe for corruption too, if "the guild" is the sole beneficiary of the money the client pays for items and "the employees" have to make particular efforts to find out the details. I have to wonder just how much profit they actually make from this scheme, after accounting for repairs, consumables, and such like.
I don't think I would be comfortable with that situation.
Eldoron Jun 2nd 2011 8:34PM
People taken to raids just so they can buy the loot? Seriously, is there any lower for some WoW players?