Drama Mamas: Returning to hard-mode raiding after a break
by Robin Torres 
Jun 10th 2011 at 9:00AM
Bench-warming is no fun when you're anxious to play, but how do you get off the bench if you aren't able to practice? For people returning to raiding after a long absence or just trying raiding for the first time, WoW Rookie has your back. But what if you know the strats and the stats, but just want to avoid any spats caused by fighting for raid spots?
My problem isn't much like the normal, in that not drama has really occurred it more of I would like advice in how to not cause any drama.
First off, I'll start with what I feel is the core of my problem. I am the type of player who, while I can research and understand a fight and its mechanics, I need to experience it a few times before I comfortably do max DPS and survivability. Once I do get it, I get decent DPS and rarely die -- probably not the best numbers for my class, but I definitely can pull my weight.
Recently I took about a 1-2 month break due to some real life situations, however now that I've come back, there's a pretty large bench for my guild. Don't get me wrong; I do not mind sitting out as long its not excessive, raiding is why I play. In any case, there are already two established members of my class that get in every raid. Due to rankings, I'd be seated last, which again I feel is okay. But the thing is, I'm concerned with even after I earn back my rank, which does take about a month of good attendance, I'm concerned I'll still never get a spot due to my lack of experience in the hard modes -- when I do get in I perform sub par due to being unused to the encounters.
What I'd really like to know is, am I being unfounded in my concerns? Is there a good way to bring this up without causing defensiveness? A month is a long time to sit on bench if just in the end I wont get in. I love my guild and would prefer not to leave but in the end I want to raid. Should I leave or stick this out? I love hard modes and feel I can do them as long as I get some practice. Should I perhaps look for a guild less progressed?
Confused
Drama Mama Robin: Hey Confused, I'd like you to put yourself in the shoes of the established members of your class that you are hoping to replace. I'm sure that taking the break from WoW was the right thing for you to do. Absolutely. But these two raiders have been there while you weren't, know the encounters, and are obviously performing well -- else you wouldn't be worried that your time on the bench won't ever end.Why should the entire raid slow down progression to accommodate you? And why should either of these members of your class have to sit out if they show up on time, prepared and having earned their place? All teams, whether WoW raiding teams or physical world sports teams, have starters and benches for a reason. But most teams have a second string so that players on the bench can get practice.
I don't think that bringing up your concerns about replacing the starting team is the way to go here. I do think, however, that there is a glaring hole in your guild if there isn't a second string of raiders practicing so that there are effective substitutions when necessary. Most raiding guilds have raiding sessions that include the alts of the first string as well as members of the bench. If yours doesn't, then this is definitely something to bring up to the officers as a suggestion -- perhaps even to organize yourself. You need practice. Others need practice. It's for the good of the whole team, as well as for yourself, and that is how you should approach it.
Now, if your guild doesn't have enough people or interest to start up a second string raid group, then yes, I think your concerns are well-founded. If they did work you into the rotation, you will probably end up not performing as well as the regulars and might get blamed for things if they don't go as well. Your not getting practice is setting you up to fail.
If they can't or won't help you and your fellow benchers learn the encounters and get up to speed, then I think it's best if you find another guild. But I wouldn't go for one that is less progressed. Apply to one that is at least as progressed but has a second string. And get recommendations from your current guild to help you. After all, you wouldn't be leaving because of any drama or because they don't like you. You would be leaving because they don't have room for you. Your officers should be happy to help you find a good home if they can't properly accommodate you in theirs.
What it boils down to is that you love to raid, so you should raid. But you don't need to raid on the first string, if that option is not available to you at this time. So get yourself a hard-mode raiding spot on the second string of either your current guild or a new one. Good luck!
Drama Mama Lisa: Those are great ideas for doing the right thing by the rest of the team. I want to be certain, Confused, that you're also doing the right thing by you! You seem to have a firm grasp of your learning style -- and in my experience, people who try to play against the grain of their own personalities end up having not much fun in the end. You sound as if you prefer a slightly slower pace, that you'll enjoy yourself more if you can align yourself with a group that's ramping up at the same speed you are.You need an opportunity to play at the level you are right here and now. Obviously, you'll need the chance to knock the rust off and polish up. But even after that, playing within the range of your own personal progression curve lets you actually participate in a meaningful way, rather than being carried along on the backs of guildmates who are further ahead on the learning and gearing curve.
I love the idea of sparking off a new team of alts and slower players in your current guild. It sounds like the perfect solution. If that doesn't work out, though, I think you'd be doing yourself a disservice (considering how much you say you enjoy raiding) by not pursuing a good fit that lets you attack these raids where you currently stand. Have at it, and happy progressing!
Dodge the drama and become that player everyone wants in their group with a little help and insight from the Drama Mamas. Remember, your mama wouldn't want to see your name on any drama. Play nice ... and when in doubt, ask the Drama Mamas at robin@wowinsider.com.
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Guilds, Raiding, Drama Mamas
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
whitfield Jun 10th 2011 9:09AM
To be worried about getting back into the swing of things because you're not sure if you'll get your top spot back makes it sound like you're hesitant for other reasons.
Jabouty Jun 10th 2011 9:27AM
Having recently dealt with something like this myself I'm here to tell you that there is a right way and a wrong way of setting up a 2nd string raiding group within an established guild.
The guild I co-GM for has been around since BWL was released in vanilla, and we've progressed at our own pace sine then. We recently broke 12/12 last night.
We had a member take a 6 month hiatus from the game and when he returned he expected his old raid spot without even having been in the raids yet. When he didn't get that hands down he started bringing in his personal friends and family and started recruiting from the main raids in the guild to fill in his holes where he was lacking in preparation to start his own raid at the expense of the others.
He did not speak with any of my officers, but instead went about this on his own. The straw that caused me to give this member the chance to lead a raiding guild was when he told one of my raiding members that he was building this third raid of his with or without permission from the officers and would simply quit and start a new guild with these members if he didn't get permission.
This was the wrong way to handle this. Had he come to the officers and spoke to us about having his own raid with his friends and family we would have accommodated him with certain ground rules such as rotations for our current benchers, etc.
In the end it boils down to communicate your needs and desires to you officers. If they are unwilling to listen or work with you within the constraints of the guild's charter rules, then it's time to look elsewhere. Any good officer/GM will take the time to listen to you and help where they can within the constraints of their guild charter rules. But if you go behind their backs to build a raid without consulting with them first, you are looking at causing some headaches for folks at the very least.
Graylo Jun 10th 2011 11:46AM
I'm confused. Why would he need permission from the guild to start his own raid? Would he need permission to start a pug as well?
If he's trying to recruit mains out of your current raid then that is a problem, but that's not what I'm talking about. You said "Had he come to the officers and spoke to us about having his own raid with his friends and family we would have accommodated him with certain ground rules such as rotations for our current benchers, etc." This makes it sound like that your major problem with what he's done is that he did it without asking first. Your not objecting to having a third raid. Your objecting that you didn't get a say in how it was created.
Honestly this sounds like you are going on a bit of a power trip. You're trying to tell if him he can start a raid. Then you're trying to force players on his roster by making him include your bench players. Yet, it sounds like your not rotating benchers through your raid, or he wouldn't be trying to form a new raid.
The way you wrote your comment does suggest that he is guilty of some questionable actions, but as Co-GM you should address what the real problem is and not create an imaginary one to make him sound worse.
If he's recruiting from the main raiders in the main raid address that issue directly. Go to him and tell him he can't jeperdise the success of the existing raids by pulling main raiders away from the roster. At the same time talk to all the members of those raids and make sure they understand that they've committed to that raid and they shouldn't cause issues by joining another one.
Jabouty Jun 10th 2011 12:58PM
That didn't come out quite as I'd wanted to convey. I apologize for that.
Yes we have no issues with players starting other raids (they do it quite often if RL kicks the main raids in the backside and we don't get off the ground), we do require that any permanent raid teams follow certain ground rules to ensure that there are no looting issues or people getting left behind, as we do with the main raids.
The issue came from this person bypassing the rules of the guild and badmouthing other raiders to gain status as well as acting like an officer to new folks to the guild in an attempt to gain a position to make demands that are counter to our guild rules. As is said earlier, all of these issues we could have worked through had he come to speak with the officers. Instead he chose to not speak with us and poach from the main raids to build a closed raid and threatened to create another guild and poach for that if he didn't get his way. Thus he was given the chance to lead in his own way.
This was a unanimous decision by the other GMs and the officers with raider input. We do nothing without talking to the guild first and this was the result.
Anyway, I'm merely trying to show that talking to your guild officers is the best way to work through any percieved issues. Bypassing them will create more issues.
Again forgive me for not being more clear in my post. I didn't feel it was required to air everything that took place to complete strangers.
wwishie Jun 10th 2011 9:46AM
Lets just say the officers slow down their progression to let this individual 'Catch-up' with the rest of the group. What's to stop this player from taking another 'Break'??
Quark1020 Jun 10th 2011 12:56PM
Not a damned thing, and it should not be an issue. I understand that we need to be considerate about other people's time, but this is a game, and if shit happens we need to deal with them before we can go back to it. We can't go with the assumption that everything will stay the same forever.
Hal Jun 10th 2011 10:03AM
While I realize it's not an attractive option, pugging to get caught up should be on the table. While this won't solve his problem of getting into the raids over longer-attending members, it can definitely help the experience gap he's worried about.
gewalt Jun 10th 2011 10:34AM
maybe your server is different from the 3 I play on, but so far, cataclysm has been completely impossible to pug.
Every now and then you find a guild needing a healer for a 4/4 or 5/6 run. Nobody ever needs dps unless they are only doing 1/4 and 2/6. People don't want to raid on their alts like they did in wrath. There's just nothing going on.
Yes, I camp trade chat for hours and hours at a time, and I am active on my servers forums trying to find raid spots for my alts. My main's raid stalled at 11/12 and unless you are 6/13 no guilds are recruiting for permanent spots either.
and its not cause I suck either. My alts are as geared as they can be pre-raid and only 372 geared folks can beat me at dps. I have no issues with survivability either.
But there's just nothing going on.
Halvan Jun 10th 2011 10:42AM
@gewalt
Personally, I think that the 10/25 normal/heroic lockout consolidation really killed pug raiding. You got so many people pugging 10 man normals to just have something to do in ICC days, at least on my server. Only having one lockout per instance leaves at lot less to do per week. This has be bored out of my mind, and Firelands will probably make it even worse with so few bosses. There won't nearly be enough content to fill in a week's worth of raiding.
sporkwind Jun 10th 2011 10:43AM
PUGing hard modes is even more impossible.
I think that's his biggest concern. Sounds like he's an experienced raider and he's willing to work and wait to make the move up, but hard modes are where it's at for him.
Sure go for the PUGs to grab gear and practice some as you wait on the bench, but he'll still be undergeared and won't be a well oiled machine on boss fights in hard modes compared to others.
And for that there isn't really anything for him to do other than to do what he set out in that letter, sit, wait your turn, read the strats, and prove that you're working hard to be ready.
Learning new fights happens, you just have to roll with it and be better each time you go out.
Hal Jun 10th 2011 11:08AM
It's off-topic to the subject at hand, but gewalt, your experience has been completely opposite to what my own has been. I'd suspect it's server culture at hand.
My guild is typically short 1-2 DPS and a healer (when you're running a tight 10m crew, it can be pretty easy to find yourself just shy of a group). Pugging the DPS isn't hard, but it's almost always the same classes responding to requests; one night I asked for ranged DPS and got responses from three warlocks and a mage. As for healers, well, good luck. Pugging one is usually pretty difficult because it's what everybody seems to lack on my server. You'll generally find several groups at once asking for healers in trade chat at any given time.
Recruitment isn't much better. We're dying to get a few new permanent raiders, but most of the folks out there seeking to be recruited are people similar to you: Their guild is 10/12 but stuck on Nef and/or Chogall, so they're looking to find a guild that's doing better. Except we're 4/12 because we can't make any progress due to the ever-changing roster. We recruit, we train and gear up the new people, and then we make some progress. Then people leave, whether for faster moving guilds, boredom, or they just vanish without a trace. Maybe real life caught up with them, who knows? Then we're back to square one, recruiting and retraining.
So, yeah, I'd chalk it up to server culture.
gewalt Jun 10th 2011 11:20AM
If you're only 4/12 its not a difference of server culture. You're not even in the same league as what I was referring to.
its pretty easy to pug 1/4 and 2/6. But that doesn't matter at all. That's a complete failure and waste of a raid lockout. I can find lots of those pugs. I am not interested in that.
John Jun 10th 2011 11:27AM
gewalt's experience mirrors my own server exactly. Pugging the T11 raids (not counting BH ofc), is not feasible there. After 4.2, it should be (my alts rejoice!).
I think the issue this person has happens a bunch and basically he's going to have to wait for one of the people in "his' spot to drop it before it passes back to him.
josh Jun 10th 2011 11:49AM
server transfer to Area-52 (H). We are the puggiest server of them all. 25m BoT w H Halfus is very common as is To4W and BWD w H Mal/Chim 10/25. That's how we roll
Bronwyn Jun 10th 2011 1:23PM
@Josh- but Area 52 is full of douches, why would I wanna go there? ;-)
No, seriously, I must have the worst luck ever with dungeon finder because every time I get someone from Area 52 they're either really bad or really mean :(
DarkWalker Jun 10th 2011 1:23PM
This is why I prefer DCUO's raid locks: they are per-boss loot and mark (their equivalent to points) locks. Which means players are free to raid as much as they want, including by pugging raids before the guild's weekly raid, since players are still be able to get into the guild raid even if they pugged and cleared it with a PUG earlier that week. Players just don't get extra loot/marks from the same boss for killing them repeatedly.
terph Jun 11th 2011 1:19PM
Same problem as gewalt, definitely. My main does great DPS, but can barely find pugs on my server. When I do see one, it's usually for "make sure you know this fight on heroic before we take you." Which is ridiculous, anyone playing H mode is already in a raiding guild and doesn't need your pug. When I do get into the rare group, I top the charts, stay out of the fire, send pleasant notes to the RL and mention I'd love to come back. But nothing. In the last expansion, everything was pugged except for Ulduar on my server. But now I have to search hard just to get a BH run done for the week. I've been debating rebuilding my guild into a raiding team again, but since I'm the only active member right now, recruiting isn't likely. "Join my guild! Lots of bank tabs, several bonuses unlocked, and oh yeah, just me. I promise I'm friendly, capable and bathe frequently."
ben decker Jun 10th 2011 10:32AM
I have jumped into guilds that were more progressed then the one I was in several times (helps to be a healer) and have felt the same way. Many guilds do have "alt runs" either with all guildies, trade PUG's, and friends from other guilds; try to get into those. Posting on the forums of your guild, explaining why you are looking to join alt runs or other such raids, will show you are motivated to learn and do well enough to get back into the main guild runs. That always helps, and at least you can say you made an honest attempt to better yourself before jumping in to hard modes.
I've never had to wait more then a few weeks before getting back into raids. Showing up early and staying on WoW the whole time a raid takes place will win you points. Even if you are sat, eventually someone will have to leave early and there you will be waiting patiently. Officers should understand and expect a small learning curve with new and returning members. Until you get in, do your best to get geared and get ready. In a few weeks you'll be back in the line-up I'm sure.
eveningstar_6 Jun 10th 2011 12:01PM
Whoa Robin!!!! Talk about drama! I believe your post to be out of line and overboard in response to Confused. Your message to her/him should have started with the 3rd paragraph starting with the sentence "I don't think that bringing up your concerns ...".
He/she doesn't need your lecture and nothing indicates in the e-mail to you that Confused HASN'T put themselves in the other peoples shoes. In fact, he/she has stated many times they understand the bench criteria. Totally unwarranted response from you!!!!!
Get off your soap box and answer the question directly without your drama. Your response ticked me off and I'm not even involved in the issue!!!!
Lisa, you did a MUCH better job of answering on target with confused concerns. Thanks for not making this the time to spout off with your own particular viewpoints but answering the question in a kindly and direct manner.
gewalt Jun 10th 2011 12:56PM
you should probably re-read what robin wrote. You seem to have implied much that she did not.