Officers' Quarters: Alt run aggression

Alt runs can be tricky things in this age of shared lockouts among raid sizes. No longer can we bring an alt who's saved to a 10-man raid to our main character's 25-man run. Scheduling alt runs can also be difficult. There's only so much time in the week where players' schedules mesh. This week, a guild leader tells the tale of the alt run that caused a firestorm and asks what he can do to resolve the situation.
Hey Scott!
I wanted some of your lights on a recent issue I'm being faced with. Basically, the point is twofold: misunderstandings and the limits of our powers as officers and GMs.
Here's the rundown: I'm GM of a casual raiding team (Friday/Saturday night, 6 hours of so, two 10 man raids at most) who was originally built to offer those that could not afford to raid during the week an opportunity to raid decently without most of the pressure of attendance. That was a couple of years ago and we've been doing pretty well for ourselves.
Just last week, one of our members (let's call him Hoots) offered an alt raid on Monday night, which was decently successful. The day after, there was an argument with an officer that basically amounted to "we should focus our activities on the weekends, since we're a weekend guild." The argument kinda escalated when another member jumped on the officer, accusing her to forbid weekday raiding, to which the officer freaked out and the argument went off tracks. It went to the officer council the day after, and we actually punished the trespasser (take a memo).
Anyways, we then went to the topic of "other" raids. The officer that got in the argument was adamant that members could create raids on the weekdays, but should not disturb our regular raiding schedule, nor be considered official raids. She stated (rightfully, I think) that it was sad that members that could not raid in the week could not enjoy alt raid in a guild focused on weekend play.Two points:
Fair enough. I offered to create our own, weekend afternoon alt raids to offer more possibilities to our players. My issue is that the same officer insists that this weekend alt raid takes precedence, and becomes "official", leaving the weekday runs as "personal initiatives", and I'm torn over the idea: it's a fine line between putting the guild priorities forward (i.e. weekend raids) and implying that we disavow and are displeased of the weekday raids, especially after punishing a player that had supported the weekday raids. Further, there IS bad blood between the officer and Hoots, as she has suspicions that he is gathering a support group to have his way with the guild, and I know for a fact she will be blamed for any perceived attack on the weekday raid.
I think my best option is to indeed throw support behind the weekend alt run, as it is consistent with guild policies, but I'm considering how to avoid generating more animosity than absolutely necessary. Luckily, nothing has come to a head, besides me and the officer arguing back and forth the virtues of making the weekend alt run "official". We've considered the aftermath should the weekend run fail due to the weekday run, and this might seriously come to a head between "players accepting the guild's policies" and "guild flexing to members' desires". I think I'd avoid laying the smackdown on the weekday raid, but will probably remind how the "weekday raiders" are penalizing those that cannot afford to raid on weekdays (especially those that ARE connected on weekend afternoons, most often on heroics or AFK'ing away). I fear anything worse would be too harsh. Any tips and tricks on how to sail through this storm?
Thanks!
Weared GM
1. Initiative should be valued and encouraged. Hoots didn't have to start an alt run, and before he did, there were no alt runs (I assume). By creating official, competing alt runs on the weekend, you will undercut him.
Guild leaders need members/officers who want to put in an effort to make the guild better. If you discourage Hoots, you discourage all future such endeavors, which could mean more work for you in the future or a guild that offers less.
I don't know what your policies specifically state, but punishing him for leading the run seems highly counterproductive to me.
2. Guilds are not obligated to provide alt runs. Unless your guild policy specifically states that alt runs will be offered, then they should be considered optional across the board -- both for the officers to provide them and the members to attend them.
Neither the weekend nor weekday runs should be declared "official." If you do that, you're essentially committing to provide that run from that point forward. You'll hear a lot of complaints if you decide not to support it at a future date. Depending on your existing membership and available raid leaders, you may not always be able to make these runs happen.
A middle ground
Based on those two thoughts, I recommend allowing Hoots his Monday run. However, explain to your guild that anyone who wants to raid with alts on the weekend may do so as long as they don't interfere with the main raids. Make it clear that all such runs, including Monday's, are unofficial. That way, you're not really taking sides, but you're also not actively discouraging Hoots' effort to improve the guild with additional activities.
It sounds like this other officer is vehemently focused on disallowing any guild activities during the week. I know that your guild is weekend-focused, and that's actually a great way to find a niche for your community on the server. You don't want to lose that unique identity.
However, that shouldn't mean that you must ban any and all activities during weekdays, unless you really want to, but I see that as a detriment to the guild. Clearly there are players who can participate during weekdays, so why not allow them to? It's true that not everyone can participate in a Monday run, but as I said, you're under no obligation to provide such a run in the first place. Nothing about the guild's main weekend activities should change as a result, and those are what you've promised.
As far as this bad blood goes, I recommend that you "sit down" with these two players in a private voice chat room and mediate a discussion of their differences. Otherwise, their arguments will only continue to disrupt the guild.
Evaluate the cost
As you stated, you don't want to hurt your main raids. For that reason, I would be wary of weekend alt runs. The main runs should be the priority and the focus, and anything that is a detriment to them should be evaluated carefully to make sure the trade-off is worthwhile. In this instance, I'd say it's not.
Multiple raids with different characters in the same day seems like overkill to me. I know I couldn't focus for that long. If you see a rise in the number of mental lapses during your main raids, it may be that your players can't actually handle the extra run.
To me, it also seems like a recipe for rapid burnout, particularly if you're running the same content twice in the same day. Maybe when your main raid moves on to tier 12 and your alt runs stay in tier 11, it won't be so bad.
The Monday schedule is actually advantageous to the main raid, because those alts would not be saved to raid IDs until after you've done all your main raiding for the week. That way, if you need an alt to fill a role for the main raid, that character would still be available. Alt runs during weekend afternoons would lock out all of those characters.
It's certainly a balancing act. Just remember that alt runs are a bonus, not a mandatory offering. They're not worth this kind of drama.
The real crux of the issue here is how you will define your guild. Will you discourage or outright disallow weekday activities? Or will you allow the scope of the guild to expand? That is something you need to decide and address before you can truly move forward.
/salute
Filed under: Officers' Quarters (Guild Leadership)






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Vitasia Jun 13th 2011 7:15PM
Seems to me alt runs are just that: for alts. I assume Hoots and the officers are all in the "main" raid on the weekends.
Perhaps this other officer is threatened by Hoots? I have known many officers feel like their control is slipping away when other members take an active role in what they feel are "leadership" roles. More than that, if Hoots and this other officer have had bad blood, there is the legitimate threat that Hoots is preparing his own group of people to start a new raiding guild with.
Still, as long as the officers can put on their big-girl panties and realize that weekend-focused doesn't mean weekend-only, this can be nothing but good for the guild.
lethian Jun 13th 2011 7:24PM
Thats something I've seen, its the officers job to uphold the guild imo like police and keep it a fair and lvl playing field. How i try to do it. and i agree it sounds like shes threatened.
Vitasia Jun 13th 2011 7:27PM
To be fair, I assume Hoots is a stand-up guy and the officer is overreacting. Keeping things "fair" really only applies to the main run, and as long as everyone's mains are available for the main run, great.
I tend to think the officer is taking enforcement a step too far, but again, I make some assumptions about the personality of everyone involved. I can understand how an officer might feel threatened, but it's also up to the officer to realize what personal biases might be causing them to behave and react a certain way.
theRaptor Jun 13th 2011 7:18PM
The officer who complained about the weekday alt raid shouldn't be an officer any more. They are obviously focused on maintaining the status quo/personal influence rather then actually helping the guild improve. Personally I would take a long hard look at what they had contributed recently and weigh up whether to demote them or not. I have been in online gaming enough to see this scenario happen a dozen times over.
Scott is absolutely right about the bad idea of having an alt raid and main raids on the weekend. It is just a recipe for burnout. If you want to offer people "official" alt play then allow them to bring alts to normal raids and just alter loot policy to make people happy.
A weekday alt raid isn't going to interfere with your normal raid schedule, which is why the complaining officer was in the wrong. People join weekend focused guilds because they can't make consistent weekday commitments to gaming. That doesn't mean they won't occasionally be able to do a weekday raid.
lethian Jun 13th 2011 7:24PM
Ya know you remind me of my Gl a good bit, im an officer of our guild. a casual one at this time, but it seems you have a good heart GL my good man
gewalt Jun 13th 2011 7:31PM
If i was in a guild that had a council dictate raiding terms that even the GM wasn't allowed to veto, I would gquit in a heartbeat. If it even took that long.
MightyMuffin Jun 13th 2011 7:43PM
I may be confused...but how does an alt run deter from main raids? It sounds like the alt run was successful, and (most likely) people enjoyed it. I also don't understand this "official" versus "unofficial" raids. Is it how attendence/loot policies are decided, or is it simply "main" versus "alt" terms?
I may be in too casual and small of a guild to comment, but we are actually starting up an alt raid night. This is due to several alts and returning players (including myself) wanting to have a chance to raid, while the main raid team that has been here for tier 11 can continue to raid. This was set up by one of the officers, and it was met with a lot of support. Of course, it was a purely optional raid - no one was required to attend, and loot was still based on the normal loot rules. While the raid did not happen as expected (family emergency), it still is something we are planning to do, unless it burns people out or regular attendance can't be met.
In this guild's situation, I agree that Hoots shouldn't have ever been punished. He took initiative, set up a raid for those who wanted to play different roles or alts, and it was successful. Also, if the guild as a whole believed that the weekend only policy was so strict, then the raid would not have gone off (in other words, several other raiders did not mind the weekday raid). So why did the officer take such offense if a lot of raiders felt it was alright? The officer, to me, seems to be threatened (if Hoots isn't an officer) by this action and initiation from Hoots (although, if the officer is good, why is he in danger of losing his position or anything?) I wouldn't be surprised if Hoots and the officer did not have some squabble before this event, which only made this a personal matter.
But back to the topic - looking forward for this guild. The GM should state that while the guild is focused on being a weekend-focused guild, that raids during weekdays aren't prohibited. So long as raids do not interfere with the main raids (i guess these are the official raids), then alt (unofficial) raids are allowed, and they can be during weekdays if members are willing to organize said groups. Also, both Hoots (if he was involved in the argument...not sure after reading the e-mail) and the officer should be reprimanded for causing an argument and disturbance in the guild (if Hoots was not involved, then just the officer). If tension between Hoots and the officer continue, then the GM needs to step in and settle this with a hard talking and some compromise if possible. It sounds like it'll only get worse if the GM doesn't take a stand and tell them this drama isn't going to be a part of the guild (which he did take a stand, but one I probably would have not done).
I hope the situation settles down soon. All the best wishes and luck to you, Weared GM.
Graylo Jun 14th 2011 10:21AM
Normally I would agree that an Alt raid wouldn't really deter from Main raid, but I think it's important to listen to how the GM refers to his guild. He says it's a "casual raiding team (Friday/Saturday night, 6 hours of so, two 10 man raids at most) who was originally built to offer those that could not afford to raid during the week an opportunity to raid decently without most of the pressure of attendance."
Their main raids are already loosely defined. They are run on high IRL activity nights with out a big attendance policy. With the Alt raid being on a Monday, it would be quite easy for someone to say, "sorry, can't make raid this weekend" and then make themselves available for alt raid on their main. It's easy to say that alt raids should impact main raids, but when you have casual or lax attendence policies it's easy for players to game the system. By no means am I saying this will happen but it could.
All that said I do think there was a big overreaction towards Hoots. Initiative shouldn't be discouraged. If there is interest in the alt raid on any night it should be allowed. The officers of the guild just have to make everyone understands the situation and try and keep all of the mains in the main raids. However, if players do start to shift to the alt raid, I think it's time for the officers to see the writing on the wall. The players might not be as interested in weekend raiding as they think. If that is the case then they either need to let the guild shift, or heavily recruit to try and maintain the focus.
Arbolamante Jun 13th 2011 8:00PM
Seems like an odd situation, but different strokes for different guilds. "Official" raids? Goofy. Weekend raid for people who want to raid on weekends, weekday raids for people who want to raid on weekdays. If your guild doesn't have ten people who can raid on Tuesday, and you can only raid on Tuesday, find another raid team (or guild) to work with. Whatever.
Does "official" mean "you raid at this time or you aren't in the guild"? I'm sure some guilds operate like that, but I don't want to be in that guild. I already have a job. I don't need a second one.
Saeadame Jun 13th 2011 8:35PM
I think "official" in this case means that the guild officers are obliged to run a raid at that time every week, whereas an "unofficial" raid is more like a reoccurring PUG - you hope it will happen every week, but if the attendance is bad you don't feel upset that "your" raid was cancelled, because it's an optional thing for it to exist at all.
Shiro Jun 13th 2011 8:49PM
Boy, oh Boy does this sound familiar...
I'm guessing the issue is going to be this:
Some people will like the weeknight raid better. This may cause them to bring their "mains" to this run and to leave their alts for the weekend.
It may even result in some people (particularly in a group of "casual" raiders) not having enough time for both runs and choosing to run the weeknight run instead of the weekend one.
My opinion?
Let them run it. Don't dictate to your guild how they have fun.
If you say "no, don't run weeknight raids" then you'll have some members who will feel like you're being too controlling. Just let them run it. If it turns out that those raids are more fun and successful, so be it.
If you change, then you become less of a "casual" guild and more of a progression based one.
If you want to change your guild into a progression guild, then so be it but give your membership a heads up first, and maybe even provide them a "new" guild to go into with their friends if they don't like the idea of being told when they'll raid and who they'll raid with.
Just my opinion, but it's a slippery slope you're headed down.
Iirdan Jun 13th 2011 10:00PM
This, very much. Difficult position. As I said in my post a few posts down, I experienced this same issue.
ChasW Jun 13th 2011 9:08PM
I'd demote the officer, and make Hoots a new officer.
Endecavallo Jun 13th 2011 9:11PM
Ok so this is the way I see all this bid for control in the game.... Officers like the one mentioned in this article are way to over controlling, if someone decides to start an alt group their should never even be a meeting about it among the leadership, because it is none of their business he started the run, its his run just be glad he's including all guild members instead of just making it an all out pug fest. People in this game want to much control over every little thing a player does, and its not right. If a player is going around giving a guild a bad name trolling are ninja'ing loot then yea leadership is their to put a halt to the activity. Otherwise leadership should leave members alone PERIOD!!!!!!!!
Iirdan Jun 13th 2011 9:53PM
I would certainly agree with Scott's comments, and would offer my own experiences.
I used to run a weekend focused guild, as my weekday playtime is severely limited. As such, not only was I unable to schedule, organize or lead raids during the week, but I was unable to even monitor guild activities at all during the week. With that in mind, I promoted a few officers to supervise and put any issues that should arise to rest during the week.
For a while this worked, and the officers even set up a few alt runs during the week to keep impatient folk from getting saved or leaving. However, over time, more and more people began getting saved before our weekend runs. Since I wasn't there during the week, I was mostly oblivious - a mistake I regret - to what was actually happening. The alt runs that the officers set up quickly became main runs, and they were usurping our weekend runs.
Apparently the officers were angry that they had to handle everything during the week, and the "everything" they had to handle were people wanting to raid weeknights instead of weekends. So they did, completely undermining the official runs myself and my co-guild master set up. We demoted the officers, promoted new ones in their stead (making them fully aware of our intentions), and hoped the issue would be put to rest. Unfortunately, the officers left, along with the majority of our raiding core. The guild, crippled, didn't survive the transition into Cataclysm.
Long story short, the weekday alt runs undermined the fact that we were a weekend guild. Weekday alt runs are fine, but it is imperative that you emphasize that the guild's focus is on weekend progression raiding. Learn from my mistakes (both in ignorance of the situation and in poor handling of the situation), and run a successful weekend guild.
Josh Jun 14th 2011 7:14AM
Very similar comment to what I was just about to post.
Most people seem to side with Hoots and that's perfectly understandable, but look at it from the officer's point of view.
You have a successful weekend only guild.... there are people there who can (and might at times prefer) to raid on weekdays but don't because the official raids are weekends, and they are generally happy with the guild.
Suddenly there is an "alt" raid on Monday. Now it's time for the official run, and, oddly, PewPew3 doesn't show up on Sat night but ends up in the alt run (who could turn down a main.) Slowly, the alt run becomes more and more a home for mains who didn't feel like raiding on the weekend. Then they ask themselves, why not do this run on Tuesday?
Now your weekend only guild is like the vast majority of raiding guilds and those that could only raid weekends have lost what they created.
I realize the "slippery slope" logic is false, but it's far to easy to see how something like this could happen.
zappel Jun 13th 2011 10:10PM
IRONCLAD GUILD
in the first place, the guild rules were too vague.
guildies have to register their toons for official raids, together with their commitment that puts that as priority (including standby duty and or rotation policies). that ensures loot goes to main spec as first priority, alt spec 2nd. any toons not registered should then be available for 'casual' raids (unofficial).
period.
so what this means is, no guildie shall advertise about their casual raids on guild channels/etc. otherwise, go thru the standard approval process to make it official.
what could happen:
ppl can go behind the guild and run their own casual raids. so the guild will have to make a rule that they cannot recruit guildies for casual raids. everything is official or else.
FLEXIBLE GUILD
now, in the event that a guild is flexible, ie allow anyone to run their own raids for guildies outside of the official raids, then situations as per post happens. then the guild council will have to advise the casual raid owners of their responsibilities to uphold the guild and not create a mess.
what if the mess does not go away:
tough luck. a flexible guild does not have the means to clear mess by rule but only by persuasion.
IN THE WORST CASE SCENARIO FOR ALL GUILDS
kick offenders out of guild.
DuckDuck Jun 13th 2011 10:17PM
Reading through this I believe Scott gave a very diplomatic response, perhaps more so then deserved.
Based on what was written it appears to me that the officer involved is bordering on being poisonous for your guild and acting in their own self-interest against what's best for a guild. I would even go as far as to suggest that they are manipulating you to their desires.
I say this because:
1. You punished the person who stood up for Hoots. Why? Punishing someone who criticizes a decision sends a very strong "Officers vs Members/ Us Vs Them" vibe to the members of the guild.
Remember that an officer is generally just someone who has been in the guild for longer then others, their opinions don't magically get more valuable and correct just because they have a higher rank next to their name.
2. "The officer that got in the argument was adamant that members could create raids on the weekdays"
Really? They can do that? Then what's the argument about?
3. "She stated (rightfully, I think) that it was sad that members that could not raid in the week could not enjoy alt raid in a guild focused on weekend play."
This just smacks of "I can't raid on Monday's, therefore, nobody can raid on Monday's WAHHHHHH!!!!".
Are you aware that not everyone follows the same schedule and that there are 7 days in a week? Regardless of the fact that you are a 'weekend guild' there will be members who enjoy your guild for the community but want to play more then what is officially offered. If you are only engaging your members 2 days of the week that gives them 5 other days to go gallivanting around the world on 'un-official' outings.
You run the risk of losing good players who have to take their alts out-of-guild to find runs that meet their needs.
4. Suggesting you label the runs "Official" and "Personal Initiatives".
Again, they seem to be going out of their way to create this "Us vs Them" atmopshere. Why? Why? Why?. Repeat after me, Officers are not evolved superbeings who rule the world. Without members in a guild you've got nothing to officiate.
5. Having "suspicions that he is gathering a support group to have his way with the guild, and I know for a fact she will be blamed for any perceived attack on the weekday raid."
Why do you think she will be blamed? Maybe... Just maybe... It's because she IS the driving force directly attacking the notion of a weekday raid.
Would you really blame Hoots for gathering support? He has gone out of his way to work within the community you've created to provide further team-building activities and he's been attacked from the top by some power-crazy officer.
My Advice to you:
1. Man up. You're the guild leader. Make decisions that are in the best interest of the GUILD not in that of yourself and other officers.
2. Man up! Stop being bullied/manipulated by this officer. Think for yourself. In your letter you wrote "I think.." a lot about what side of the argument you are on. This suggests to me that you don't really feel this way but the point has been pushed so hard by the other officer that you'd rather just give into what they want rather then continue arguing.
3. Don't take advice in relation to a conflict from someone that was involved as there's going to be bias. Was there anyone else online at the time that was there that could shed light on what actually happened?
Definitely don't take advice about what punishment should be doled out by someone who was directly involved in an incident.
4. Ditch the rigidity of your guild and go with the flow. If Hoots is able to assemble 10 people who want to raid on a Monday, let him. He's doing it under your guild banner which can be nothing but beneficial.
5. Stamp out the "Us Vs Them" culture as soon as possible.
5. MAN UP!
Keto Jun 13th 2011 11:25PM
what DuckDuck said basically.
I dont understand what the problem is.
he dident casue your main raids any problems, he dident go behind the GM/offciers backs, he dident want hand holding or to use guild recourses for his alt run.
And you go and punish him?
If i was that dude i would be looking for a new guild.
Your officer sounds like a control freak that wont let any1 have any fun unless he/she can join.
Man up, demote that officer and apologize to your member imo. Do whats best/right for YOUR guild.
my 2 cents.
ps, doing 2 raids back to back on the same day is fine 1-2 times then people are gonna get burned out/bored, its a bad idea in the long run.
Lemons Jun 14th 2011 12:40AM
*guild member spots a rare mob*
Guild member: Hey, there's this rare mob out in Vashj'ir I want to kill, I mean I know it's Wednesday but-
Officer: WE ARE A WEEKEND GUILD! ALRIGHT!? IS THAT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?