Shifting Perspectives: Why the tank Q&A sucked

Don't get me wrong: It's not that I don't like the developer Q&A sessions. They're a great idea, and although they don't make up for Ghostcrawler's absence from the forums, they're a nice insight into the developers' thought process and a peek at the issues that matter most to players. The effort's appreciated even when players ask pointless questions (of which the need to do so appears to be a congenital disorder) or use the opportunity to grandstand about issues no one cares about.
But the tank Q&A was ... not Blizzard's best effort. To borrow a phrase from Harry Knowles, I love hard-working Blizzard, I'm blown away by creative Blizzard, and I'm in awe of big-dreaming and overreaching Blizzard.
But I freaking hate lazy Blizzard.
In the tank Q&A we had the perfect storm of questions that didn't need to be asked, evasive answers to the questions that were asked, and on occasion, a complete lack of answers to questions that did need to be asked.
Q: Have you considered normalizing initial Rage for feral druid tanks? For example, when a warrior uses Charge, it generates 15 points of Rage, which lets them use another aggro generating ability quickly, something that Feral druids tend to be a bit short on. Why in Cataclysm was the bear bonus health pool was reduced, as well? Their survivability always depended on the amount of health since they don't have parry or shield block. Do you have any plans to improve bear tanking in the future? At the moment, it's considered to be the weakest tank. Have you considered giving druid tanks an additional tool to pull casters at range? It's the only tank class that doesn't have a talent or spell to help in those situations. – Pødêrøsø (LA), Вирко (EU-RU), Амелья (EU-RU), Condenacion (EU-ES), Whitewnd (KR)
A: Bears are getting a significant mitigation buff in 4.2 and we're retuning their damage such that it's a little easier to hold aggro at low gear levels, and a little harder at higher gear levels. While we definitely don't expect the community to ever agree on anything, we've seen little evidence of a widespread concurrence that druids are "the weakest tank." There are plenty of druid tanks out there, handling everything from Grim Batol to Sinestra. Tank balance overall is in a really good place. Players may focus on potential problems that could arise in the future but we also have ample time to address those problems should they occur. Gone are the days when we would just release a class into the wild and refuse to touch it again until the next expansion.
A: Bears are getting a significant mitigation buff in 4.2 and we're retuning their damage such that it's a little easier to hold aggro at low gear levels, and a little harder at higher gear levels. While we definitely don't expect the community to ever agree on anything, we've seen little evidence of a widespread concurrence that druids are "the weakest tank." There are plenty of druid tanks out there, handling everything from Grim Batol to Sinestra. Tank balance overall is in a really good place. Players may focus on potential problems that could arise in the future but we also have ample time to address those problems should they occur. Gone are the days when we would just release a class into the wild and refuse to touch it again until the next expansion.
Let's take this train wreck station by station:
- Rage normalization for feral tanks Not answered, and this is a real issue in any situation where you can't depend on an oversupply of rage from a boss that hits like a truck. Feral rage gain is simply not the equivalent of protection warrior rage gain, and it's not going to be as long as we're getting 3 rage per dodge, blowing rage for Feral Charge, and praying for Enrage to come off cooldown before the next pull. Hell, it took us until the most recent patch just to get Blizzard to yank the damage penalty off the damn skill. Compare this to the warrior's 15 rage for Shield Specialization and rage generation with Charge. While you can make the argument that the bear has Primal Fury to compensate, crit's rage generation doesn't reliably cover the difference. When you have to dodge five times to generate the same amount of rage that a warrior does with a single block -- and when you lose everything to shift out for anything else -- that's not good.
- Bear bonus health This one is all on the players and didn't need to be addressed yet again. Asking the developers the same question over and over again in the hopes that they'll somehow answer differently is pointless.
- Ranged silence Not answered. This is a perennial sore point for bears, as we're unquestionably worst-off while trying to make a clean pull with caster mobs. Every other tanking class has gotten DPS players accustomed to the practice of DPSing straight off a pull with a high-threat, ranged ability that forces a caster mob to move -- Death Grip, Heroic Throw, or the ne plus ultra of pull abilities, Avenger's Shield -- and the idea of waiting while the bear ducks behind a wall somewhere is completely foreign to modern groups. I have not had a single 5-man PUG since Wrath where every player was on board with the idea of waiting patiently for a line-of-sight pull.
- Everything else Nothing concrete or truly informative was said about bears here.
But not all tanks are created equal with respect to resource generation, rotation interest, utility, or multi-target tanking, and the two legitimate issues raised above show no signs of being addressed. It is enormously frustrating to see two decent questions wind their way through the approval process only to get picked but not answered.
Q: Have you ever considered adjusting DPS HP? Seems that while their large pools of health help them on "accidental" situations, a fair portion of the time they can take aggro and tank adds without consequence. – Jainel (LA)
A: We're generally happy with how well DPS are able to tank (which is to say, not very well). We like that they can take a hit or two (depending upon content) before dying, and that the penalty for that happening is a huge drain on healer mana.
A: We're generally happy with how well DPS are able to tank (which is to say, not very well). We like that they can take a hit or two (depending upon content) before dying, and that the penalty for that happening is a huge drain on healer mana.
Q: What are your intentions with each tank's mastery and mastery in general? – Migol (NA)
Druids: We're pretty happy with how mastery has turned out. It scales well, doesn't have any unintuitive or unfortunate interactions with other stats, and provides solid performance value.
Druids: We're pretty happy with how mastery has turned out. It scales well, doesn't have any unintuitive or unfortunate interactions with other stats, and provides solid performance value.
If tanks have achieved an acceptable level of parity with respect to single-target tanking, but two of them take significantly more damage from add packs, that's not balanced. That the two tanks concerned are also much less represented right now than their shield tank colleagues is also worrisome.
Q: Protection Paladin is not only the most desired tank because survival abilities for groups and various utilities, but players also generally consider Paladins as an indispensable Class in raids. I know all tanking Classes are being equalized constantly, but survival abilities of Protection Paladins give huge advantages compared to other tanking Classes. Can we expect that other Tanking classes will see more survival abilities for groups in terms of equity? – 디아소르테 (KR)
Because they can fill many roles and still provide a lot of utility, it's not surprising that you see a lot of druids and paladins in your raid groups ... Protection paladins do bring a lot of utility, but it is quite difficult to make a table comparing a paladin's Divine Guardian to a Protection warrior's mobility or a bear druid's ability to cast Innervate or even Rebirth during lulls in an encounter. They are fundamentally different abilities that have greater or less utility depending on the encounter and your individual raid comp. We don't want to just hand out a Divine Guardian equivalent to every tank class, just like we don't think warriors or paladins need the ability to battle rez. It's a fine line to walk. Homogenization really rankles some players (as it should), but being unable to tank (or heal, or DPS) an encounter because of lack of tools is equally unacceptable to many players.
Because they can fill many roles and still provide a lot of utility, it's not surprising that you see a lot of druids and paladins in your raid groups ... Protection paladins do bring a lot of utility, but it is quite difficult to make a table comparing a paladin's Divine Guardian to a Protection warrior's mobility or a bear druid's ability to cast Innervate or even Rebirth during lulls in an encounter. They are fundamentally different abilities that have greater or less utility depending on the encounter and your individual raid comp. We don't want to just hand out a Divine Guardian equivalent to every tank class, just like we don't think warriors or paladins need the ability to battle rez. It's a fine line to walk. Homogenization really rankles some players (as it should), but being unable to tank (or heal, or DPS) an encounter because of lack of tools is equally unacceptable to many players.
The first observation I can make in any discussion concerning tank "utility" is that the bear automatically starts at a heavy disadvantage relative to its plate tank colleagues. Why? Because every bit of utility we provide with the exception of Leader of the Pack is something that can't be done in bear form. In other words, you cannot be actively tanking in order to provide Innervate, pop Tranquility, or Rebirth a fallen player. While you can make a case for Stampeding Roar, in practice even melee DPSers are rarely within 10 yards of you given the size of the average boss' hit box.
Almost by definition, the utility that a bear druid provides to a raid is determined by the extent to which encounter design permits them to leave bear form. Not surprisingly, this is a strong disincentive to use a druid in a main tank capacity. The raid's better off relegating a bear player to the off tank role in order the maximize the number of opportunities he/she will have to leave form, and each time the druid will sacrifice all of his/her rage and Vengeance to do it. No other tank is asked to dump all of his/her resources or Vengeance stacks to, say, Raise Ally or Intervene.
And, as several players pointed out, comparing the feral Innervate -- a ghastly ~5,000 mana return to a single caster -- to a 20% reduction to damage taken by the entire raid (Divine Guardian) is somewhat irritating.
Q: As far as I remember, about five tanks were required in a 25-man group in Burning Crusade. However, the number of tanks in raids has been decreased to one or two since WotLK. I think this is one of the reasons heroic parties suffer from lack of tanks. What if raids have required more tanks? – 명장한니발 (KR)
A: We don't actually recall many four+ tank fights in Burning Crusade, and that includes fights like High King Maulgar where non-tanks could perform the tanking role. While we do find some elegance in a design where a 5-player group scales perfectly up to a 10 and 25-player group, that introduces some problems as well. It could potentially extend the tank shortage we see in 5-player dungeons up to raids (to be fair, it's also possible needing more tanks for raiding would create more tanks for dungeons). A larger problem is that we just don't want to over-constrain encounter design to always require 4 or 5 tanks. Sometimes it's nice to have a fight that's just a single bruiser without requiring a tank swap or meteor-style cleave. Nearly every raid fight in Cataclysm asks for two tank-specced characters, with a few requiring one or three. That's likely the model we will continue to use. If we wanted to do a fight with many tanks, we'd likely let some of the DPS specs step in.
A: We don't actually recall many four+ tank fights in Burning Crusade, and that includes fights like High King Maulgar where non-tanks could perform the tanking role. While we do find some elegance in a design where a 5-player group scales perfectly up to a 10 and 25-player group, that introduces some problems as well. It could potentially extend the tank shortage we see in 5-player dungeons up to raids (to be fair, it's also possible needing more tanks for raiding would create more tanks for dungeons). A larger problem is that we just don't want to over-constrain encounter design to always require 4 or 5 tanks. Sometimes it's nice to have a fight that's just a single bruiser without requiring a tank swap or meteor-style cleave. Nearly every raid fight in Cataclysm asks for two tank-specced characters, with a few requiring one or three. That's likely the model we will continue to use. If we wanted to do a fight with many tanks, we'd likely let some of the DPS specs step in.
The game needs far more tanks for 5-mans than it needs at the raid level, and Blizzard is essentially asking the majority of tanks out there to play at the 5-man level with no real hope of advancement unless they start their own raids. The problem is guaranteed to grow worse as an expansion winds on because no tank in blues -- or even the piecemeal assembly of epics to which they'll have access as more badge gear opens up -- can realistically step into future raids in the same fashion that a DPSer or healer can.
To Blizzard, if you're reading: No one needs answers to questions that didn't need to be asked, and if you don't intend to answer a selected question, then please answer something else. I understand that highly-voted questions are the most likely to be selected, but that does prejudice question choice in favor of whichever questions are asked the earliest because most players don't have the time to trawl through dozens of later pages.
To players: Read the freaking patch notes!
Shifting Perspectives helps you gear your bear druid at 85, tempts you with weapons, trinkets and relics for bears, then shows you what to do with it all in Feral Druid Tanking 101. We'll also help you gear your resto druid.
Filed under: Druid, Analysis / Opinion, (Druid) Shifting Perspectives






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 5)
Jolly Jun 14th 2011 4:15PM
You tell 'em, Allison!
Innervate? Really? That's not bear tank utility, that's boomkin/resto druid utility. Oh, and it's not utility anymore, since 4.2 means they will just be casting it on themselves most of the time.
Hal Jun 14th 2011 4:30PM
Outside of Divine Guardian (whose awesomeness I can't dispute) I'm not sure Pally utility is all that special anymore. I mean, yes, the Hand spells (Freedom, Protection, Salvation, and Sacrifice) are very useful, but I could probably count on one hand the number of times they've been useful in a raid. Auras? Almost entirely replicated by other classes, mainly Shamans.
No argument about having to shift out of Bear form to use your utility spells being uncool, though.
cyanea85 Jun 14th 2011 5:07PM
@Hal
You must not play a paladin. I use my Hand spells ALL the time. As a Healer, I throw Protection on the tank to mitigate the damage from a Mangle, as well as use it on a healer who is getting mauled by adds (such as in Magmaw and Maloriak) if the tank's having trouble rounding them up. As a Tank, I use it on antsy melee DPS if they're not listening to my "Watch your threat" orders, and on healers if a pull goes bad.
Hand of Sacrifice is probably the first button I hit when tanks start getting roughed up, usually followed by Divine Protection. The damage reduction is equal to their middle cooldown. I'll throw it on another tank when I'm not tanking anything, for example...on the tank currently tanking Halfus when he and I are swapping threat because of Mortal Strike. If a healer's getting roughed up by something (like the Eagle Boss in ZA), I'll throw it on them and pop a CD, even as DPS.
Hand of Salvation is less useful, but has its moments. I use it in tank switch moments when I'm pulling off the other tank.
Hand of Freedom is useful whenever you're slowed by something. It doesn't happen much in this tier, but I used it all the time in ICC. (Rotface goo tank and Sindragosa tank come to mind)
Utility doesn't just mean Hand spells either. As a Healer, I've gotten into the pattern of Taunting Chimeron and popping Divine Protection just before he goes into the burn phase so that I am the first one to die, and people who can do actual damage to the boss will live longer. Other healers can't do that. Lay on Hands is fantastic for clutch moments, no matter your spec.
Pallies have a buttload of utility that other classes don't. I feel so naked and helpless when I heal on my Shaman or tank on my Warrior.
lkmwow Jun 14th 2011 5:10PM
Absolutely, Jolly. Innervate is a great utility? Really?
I'd willingly sacrifice Innervate for a silence.
jonas Jun 14th 2011 5:58PM
In current content, hand of freedom is great if you get waterlogged on Ascendant Council, and if you're on Nezir in Council of Winds. Also, on Al'Akir, if you need to run across an ice patch due to the knockback or a squall line.
vocenoctum Jun 14th 2011 7:05PM
In Wrath, Innervate was great for my bear. When the healer was low between pulls, I'd innervate and we'd get back to stuff much quicker than having to pause.
I lost interest in bear for cata and went resto instead, so can't speak to now. I don't think it does as much as it used to, so even that in-between-pulls wouldn't do much I think.
Hal Jun 14th 2011 7:05PM
I should say "as a protection paladin" then. I'll hit Hand of Freedom if I'm getting rooted, but with the others, I'm typically too busy to worry about using the other buttons. It's just generally too much to find the offending parties on the screen in order to hit them with the right spell.
Sharlatan Jun 15th 2011 7:51AM
meh, is my answer.
Yes sure the Q and A was pretty pants, but who expected it not to be?
AS far as bear utility, it kicks arse. You can Bres, you can innvervate (which is being changed to be semi-useful for feral to chuck on others) and you can cc and so on, you just have to time it well. Even on most boss fights you can still manage to get off a Bres even whilst tanking if you time it well with boss swings and tell your healers you are shifting for a second of two. Its not ideal, but I generally find a time to do it without a problem.
Also, I LOVE being able to shift to kitty form and dps when not needed to actively tank. We are the ONLY truely hybrid talent spec, embrace it.
Do i think things need to be fixed? sure, but the sky is not falling, we are perfectly viable. A ranged silence would be nice, but I manage to live without it.
Robert Jun 15th 2011 9:25AM
Innervate WAS great utility, back in Wrath. Then Blizzard nerfed the amount of mana it would return for Bears and Cats, such that it isn't worth shifting out and casting even if the healer is completely OOM--the extra damage you'd take would cost the healer more mana than you would be giving them. 5k? Really? I have heals that cost more mana than that.
Twill Jun 16th 2011 2:33AM
@ Sharlatan Jun 15th 2011 7:51AM
"AS far as bear utility, it kicks arse. You can Bres,..."
So we have one move that is covered by half of the tanking group.
"...you can innvervate..."
Um HELL to the no. An innervate is less than 5% of a healers mana pool, AND you cannot use it unless you aren't taking damage.
"...(which is being changed to be semi-useful for feral to chuck on others)..."
This is false.
"...and you can cc and so on, you just have to time it well."
Um... what? Are you saying that you want to root a melee person, and then sit there while a caster starts shooting you? Or are you implying the use of Hibernate... that token CC that works on beasts. There are very, very few beasts.
"Even on most boss fights you can still manage to get off a Bres even whilst tanking if you time it well with boss swings and tell your healers you are shifting for a second of two. Its not ideal, but I generally find a time to do it without a problem."
You will get 1 shot if a boss hits you mid-swing. Its just.... NOT an option.
"Also, I LOVE being able to shift to kitty form and dps when not needed to actively tank. We are the ONLY truely hybrid talent spec, embrace it."
You lose Vengeance when you go cat. Its not an option. Your Savage Defense is crippled. DO NOT DO THIS EVER. EVER.
"Do i think things need to be fixed? sure, but the sky is not falling, we are perfectly viable. A ranged silence would be nice, but I manage to live without it."
No. The sky isn't falling. But that doesn't mean you have any idea what you are talking about.
One of the largest issues facing the bear community (and WoW as a whole) is the lack of knowledge people actually have when they either complain or defend something. Bears are the weakest tanking class. Why? Resources, threat, rotations, savage defense scaling, hygiene issues because they are unable to close their mouths...
(You have no idea what my dental bill was after tanking Rotface)
Corath Jun 14th 2011 4:11PM
Dear Ally: Please keep being awesome.
Dear Blizzard: Hire Ally as a CM!
Plonkeror Jun 14th 2011 4:12PM
rage
llcjay2003 Jun 14th 2011 4:14PM
Ugh. I agree. The tank Q&A was "meh" at best. Very best. Blizzard seems to be perfecting the art of answering a question with an answer that appears to not answer anything.
DragonFireKai Jun 14th 2011 5:30PM
No one was satisfied with the tanking Q&A. Even the blind blizzard fanboys were going "Shit, how am I supposed to defend this?"
It was the most half assed thing I've seen them do. It was unprofessional, lazy, and insulting. The backlash that blizz got over it was well deserved, and if you were in any other setting, where someone was given 2 weeks to assemble a presentation to be sent out to millions of clients, and they dropped the ball that bad, they'd be fired on the spot.
Some of the flaws were systemic to the process. Taking the top 5 questions from the Latin America forums, and the top 5 questions from the North America forums is idiotic when Latin America asks 5 questions, and North America asks 500.
Some of the flaws were due to lazyness. The document was not fact checked in the slightest. There was no patch 3.9. It doesn't exist. Questions from the non english realms were translated very poorly. Questions that had no bearing on each other were rammed together without being given even a cursory proofreading.
What's going to be amazing is to watch the firestorm that'll erupt from the DPS Q&A if they follow the same procedures and the same standard of work. Going from the smallest in game population with concerns only for 4 specs, to a population more than 10 times bigger covering 22 specs, with the same number of questions, is a recipe for disaster, and I for one, will get myself a nice vantage point, some popcorn, and watch it all burn down.
llcjay2003 Jun 14th 2011 5:52PM
@DragonFireKai: Well said. I've seen some people defend the devs with an argument that they are doing the Q&As out of courtesy and in their "spare" time, and that they do not have to do it at all. My answer is, if you are going to do something, do it right. If you do not have the time to do a thorough job, then simply, do not do it. If trying to meet a deadline, I would rather they delay the publish than put out crap like this last one.
What boggles me is that the person(s) who publish the Q&As must have some sort of editor or QA they run drafts by. This means that more than one person (probably multiple people) read this before it was published and gave it the thumbs up.
Byeble Jul 21st 2011 12:48AM
I didn't like it, and I was really disappointed at how little of the questions had anything to do with DK tanks.
John Jun 14th 2011 5:22PM
Currently 8/12 heroic on both my prot pally and my bear. Bear tanks are clearly weaker. The line comparing rebirth and Inervate to Divine Guardian...well...it meshes me wonder how many of the devs actually tank their own encounters as bear. No bubble to drop stacks. No healing out of form. No real raid boost. Only one reliable taunt/high threat gen ability. I love my bear and my pally but now that paw is the same as kings, other raiders don't love me nearly as much. I think devs should spend more time playing the roles, less time seeing what the wow population is doing.
This article gets +3 paws (and leaves me rage starved)
llcjay2003 Jun 14th 2011 4:21PM
I also have to agree that it is unfortunate how the vote system works for the questions selected. I am not reading through 20 pages of questions to vote and I don't blame other people for not either. I have no idea how this would be fixed, but it needs a fixin'.
llcjay2003 Jun 14th 2011 5:06PM
Wow. Reading fail here. You were commenting on the absence of the lore Ask the Devs. Just ignore me >.>. Nothing to see here. Move along.
llcjay2003 Jun 14th 2011 5:07PM
Sonofabitch. Clicking fail. Ok, I'm grounded from the internet until I get more caffeine.