Shifting Perspectives: Why the tank Q&A sucked

Don't get me wrong: It's not that I don't like the developer Q&A sessions. They're a great idea, and although they don't make up for Ghostcrawler's absence from the forums, they're a nice insight into the developers' thought process and a peek at the issues that matter most to players. The effort's appreciated even when players ask pointless questions (of which the need to do so appears to be a congenital disorder) or use the opportunity to grandstand about issues no one cares about.
But the tank Q&A was ... not Blizzard's best effort. To borrow a phrase from Harry Knowles, I love hard-working Blizzard, I'm blown away by creative Blizzard, and I'm in awe of big-dreaming and overreaching Blizzard.
But I freaking hate lazy Blizzard.
In the tank Q&A we had the perfect storm of questions that didn't need to be asked, evasive answers to the questions that were asked, and on occasion, a complete lack of answers to questions that did need to be asked.
Ask the Devs #9: Tank Q&A
Q: Have you considered normalizing initial Rage for feral druid tanks? For example, when a warrior uses Charge, it generates 15 points of Rage, which lets them use another aggro generating ability quickly, something that Feral druids tend to be a bit short on. Why in Cataclysm was the bear bonus health pool was reduced, as well? Their survivability always depended on the amount of health since they don't have parry or shield block. Do you have any plans to improve bear tanking in the future? At the moment, it's considered to be the weakest tank. Have you considered giving druid tanks an additional tool to pull casters at range? It's the only tank class that doesn't have a talent or spell to help in those situations. – Pødêrøsø (LA), Вирко (EU-RU), Амелья (EU-RU), Condenacion (EU-ES), Whitewnd (KR)
A: Bears are getting a significant mitigation buff in 4.2 and we're retuning their damage such that it's a little easier to hold aggro at low gear levels, and a little harder at higher gear levels. While we definitely don't expect the community to ever agree on anything, we've seen little evidence of a widespread concurrence that druids are "the weakest tank." There are plenty of druid tanks out there, handling everything from Grim Batol to Sinestra. Tank balance overall is in a really good place. Players may focus on potential problems that could arise in the future but we also have ample time to address those problems should they occur. Gone are the days when we would just release a class into the wild and refuse to touch it again until the next expansion.
A: Bears are getting a significant mitigation buff in 4.2 and we're retuning their damage such that it's a little easier to hold aggro at low gear levels, and a little harder at higher gear levels. While we definitely don't expect the community to ever agree on anything, we've seen little evidence of a widespread concurrence that druids are "the weakest tank." There are plenty of druid tanks out there, handling everything from Grim Batol to Sinestra. Tank balance overall is in a really good place. Players may focus on potential problems that could arise in the future but we also have ample time to address those problems should they occur. Gone are the days when we would just release a class into the wild and refuse to touch it again until the next expansion.
Let's take this train wreck station by station:
- Rage normalization for feral tanks Not answered, and this is a real issue in any situation where you can't depend on an oversupply of rage from a boss that hits like a truck. Feral rage gain is simply not the equivalent of protection warrior rage gain, and it's not going to be as long as we're getting 3 rage per dodge, blowing rage for Feral Charge, and praying for Enrage to come off cooldown before the next pull. Hell, it took us until the most recent patch just to get Blizzard to yank the damage penalty off the damn skill. Compare this to the warrior's 15 rage for Shield Specialization and rage generation with Charge. While you can make the argument that the bear has Primal Fury to compensate, crit's rage generation doesn't reliably cover the difference. When you have to dodge five times to generate the same amount of rage that a warrior does with a single block -- and when you lose everything to shift out for anything else -- that's not good.
- Bear bonus health This one is all on the players and didn't need to be addressed yet again. Asking the developers the same question over and over again in the hopes that they'll somehow answer differently is pointless.
- Ranged silence Not answered. This is a perennial sore point for bears, as we're unquestionably worst-off while trying to make a clean pull with caster mobs. Every other tanking class has gotten DPS players accustomed to the practice of DPSing straight off a pull with a high-threat, ranged ability that forces a caster mob to move -- Death Grip, Heroic Throw, or the ne plus ultra of pull abilities, Avenger's Shield -- and the idea of waiting while the bear ducks behind a wall somewhere is completely foreign to modern groups. I have not had a single 5-man PUG since Wrath where every player was on board with the idea of waiting patiently for a line-of-sight pull.
- Everything else Nothing concrete or truly informative was said about bears here.
But not all tanks are created equal with respect to resource generation, rotation interest, utility, or multi-target tanking, and the two legitimate issues raised above show no signs of being addressed. It is enormously frustrating to see two decent questions wind their way through the approval process only to get picked but not answered.
Ask the Devs #9: Tank Q&A
Q: Have you ever considered adjusting DPS HP? Seems that while their large pools of health help them on "accidental" situations, a fair portion of the time they can take aggro and tank adds without consequence. – Jainel (LA)
A: We're generally happy with how well DPS are able to tank (which is to say, not very well). We like that they can take a hit or two (depending upon content) before dying, and that the penalty for that happening is a huge drain on healer mana.
A: We're generally happy with how well DPS are able to tank (which is to say, not very well). We like that they can take a hit or two (depending upon content) before dying, and that the penalty for that happening is a huge drain on healer mana.
Ask the Devs #9: Tank Q&A
Q: What are your intentions with each tank's mastery and mastery in general? – Migol (NA)
Druids: We're pretty happy with how mastery has turned out. It scales well, doesn't have any unintuitive or unfortunate interactions with other stats, and provides solid performance value.
Druids: We're pretty happy with how mastery has turned out. It scales well, doesn't have any unintuitive or unfortunate interactions with other stats, and provides solid performance value.
If tanks have achieved an acceptable level of parity with respect to single-target tanking, but two of them take significantly more damage from add packs, that's not balanced. That the two tanks concerned are also much less represented right now than their shield tank colleagues is also worrisome.
Ask the Devs #9: Tank Q&A
Q: Protection Paladin is not only the most desired tank because survival abilities for groups and various utilities, but players also generally consider Paladins as an indispensable Class in raids. I know all tanking Classes are being equalized constantly, but survival abilities of Protection Paladins give huge advantages compared to other tanking Classes. Can we expect that other Tanking classes will see more survival abilities for groups in terms of equity? – 디아소르테 (KR)
Because they can fill many roles and still provide a lot of utility, it's not surprising that you see a lot of druids and paladins in your raid groups ... Protection paladins do bring a lot of utility, but it is quite difficult to make a table comparing a paladin's Divine Guardian to a Protection warrior's mobility or a bear druid's ability to cast Innervate or even Rebirth during lulls in an encounter. They are fundamentally different abilities that have greater or less utility depending on the encounter and your individual raid comp. We don't want to just hand out a Divine Guardian equivalent to every tank class, just like we don't think warriors or paladins need the ability to battle rez. It's a fine line to walk. Homogenization really rankles some players (as it should), but being unable to tank (or heal, or DPS) an encounter because of lack of tools is equally unacceptable to many players.
Because they can fill many roles and still provide a lot of utility, it's not surprising that you see a lot of druids and paladins in your raid groups ... Protection paladins do bring a lot of utility, but it is quite difficult to make a table comparing a paladin's Divine Guardian to a Protection warrior's mobility or a bear druid's ability to cast Innervate or even Rebirth during lulls in an encounter. They are fundamentally different abilities that have greater or less utility depending on the encounter and your individual raid comp. We don't want to just hand out a Divine Guardian equivalent to every tank class, just like we don't think warriors or paladins need the ability to battle rez. It's a fine line to walk. Homogenization really rankles some players (as it should), but being unable to tank (or heal, or DPS) an encounter because of lack of tools is equally unacceptable to many players.
The first observation I can make in any discussion concerning tank "utility" is that the bear automatically starts at a heavy disadvantage relative to its plate tank colleagues. Why? Because every bit of utility we provide with the exception of Leader of the Pack is something that can't be done in bear form. In other words, you cannot be actively tanking in order to provide Innervate, pop Tranquility, or Rebirth a fallen player. While you can make a case for Stampeding Roar, in practice even melee DPSers are rarely within 10 yards of you given the size of the average boss' hit box.
Almost by definition, the utility that a bear druid provides to a raid is determined by the extent to which encounter design permits them to leave bear form. Not surprisingly, this is a strong disincentive to use a druid in a main tank capacity. The raid's better off relegating a bear player to the off tank role in order the maximize the number of opportunities he/she will have to leave form, and each time the druid will sacrifice all of his/her rage and Vengeance to do it. No other tank is asked to dump all of his/her resources or Vengeance stacks to, say, Raise Ally or Intervene.
And, as several players pointed out, comparing the feral Innervate -- a ghastly ~5,000 mana return to a single caster -- to a 20% reduction to damage taken by the entire raid (Divine Guardian) is somewhat irritating.
Ask the Devs #9: Tank Q&A
Q: As far as I remember, about five tanks were required in a 25-man group in Burning Crusade. However, the number of tanks in raids has been decreased to one or two since WotLK. I think this is one of the reasons heroic parties suffer from lack of tanks. What if raids have required more tanks? – 명장한니발 (KR)
A: We don't actually recall many four+ tank fights in Burning Crusade, and that includes fights like High King Maulgar where non-tanks could perform the tanking role. While we do find some elegance in a design where a 5-player group scales perfectly up to a 10 and 25-player group, that introduces some problems as well. It could potentially extend the tank shortage we see in 5-player dungeons up to raids (to be fair, it's also possible needing more tanks for raiding would create more tanks for dungeons). A larger problem is that we just don't want to over-constrain encounter design to always require 4 or 5 tanks. Sometimes it's nice to have a fight that's just a single bruiser without requiring a tank swap or meteor-style cleave. Nearly every raid fight in Cataclysm asks for two tank-specced characters, with a few requiring one or three. That's likely the model we will continue to use. If we wanted to do a fight with many tanks, we'd likely let some of the DPS specs step in.
A: We don't actually recall many four+ tank fights in Burning Crusade, and that includes fights like High King Maulgar where non-tanks could perform the tanking role. While we do find some elegance in a design where a 5-player group scales perfectly up to a 10 and 25-player group, that introduces some problems as well. It could potentially extend the tank shortage we see in 5-player dungeons up to raids (to be fair, it's also possible needing more tanks for raiding would create more tanks for dungeons). A larger problem is that we just don't want to over-constrain encounter design to always require 4 or 5 tanks. Sometimes it's nice to have a fight that's just a single bruiser without requiring a tank swap or meteor-style cleave. Nearly every raid fight in Cataclysm asks for two tank-specced characters, with a few requiring one or three. That's likely the model we will continue to use. If we wanted to do a fight with many tanks, we'd likely let some of the DPS specs step in.
The game needs far more tanks for 5-mans than it needs at the raid level, and Blizzard is essentially asking the majority of tanks out there to play at the 5-man level with no real hope of advancement unless they start their own raids. The problem is guaranteed to grow worse as an expansion winds on because no tank in blues -- or even the piecemeal assembly of epics to which they'll have access as more badge gear opens up -- can realistically step into future raids in the same fashion that a DPSer or healer can.
To Blizzard, if you're reading: No one needs answers to questions that didn't need to be asked, and if you don't intend to answer a selected question, then please answer something else. I understand that highly-voted questions are the most likely to be selected, but that does prejudice question choice in favor of whichever questions are asked the earliest because most players don't have the time to trawl through dozens of later pages.
To players: Read the freaking patch notes!
Shifting Perspectives helps you gear your bear druid at 85, tempts you with weapons, trinkets and relics for bears, then shows you what to do with it all in Feral Druid Tanking 101. We'll also help you gear your resto druid.
Filed under: Druid, Analysis / Opinion, (Druid) Shifting Perspectives
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Reader Comments (Page 2 of 5)
arcaniadia6 Jun 14th 2011 4:28PM
Hey at least there was one, unlike that goddarned Lore Q&A
llcjay2003 Jun 14th 2011 4:42PM
Speaking of which, I cannot find that. Anyone have a link to the lore Q&A (not from Blizzcon).
llcjay2003 Jun 14th 2011 4:49PM
Err...I don't think there has been one yet. It was not on the blog articles of the WoW community page.
Well...they should make it!
llcjay2003 Jun 14th 2011 5:07PM
Wow. Reading fail here. You were commenting on the absence of the lore Ask the Devs. Just ignore me >.>. Nothing to see here. Move along.
LynMars Jun 14th 2011 5:13PM
The last Lore Q&A I recall was on the old forums well over a year ago. I have a copy on my harddrive, but I can't find it on Blizz's site anymore.
Some of the questions on the tank Q&A did make me facepalm, as people don't know how to ask questions, what to ask, and then what to upvote (the taunt question made me headdesk). And Blizz isn't really looking at the questions being asked, apparently, just which has votes.
Shinae Jun 15th 2011 11:14AM
Yeah, I sure it was in January or February of this year that Blizz was accepting questions for a Lore Q&A. I don't know what's taking them so long to answer them and post it!
Tankadin Jun 14th 2011 4:29PM
I feel your pain concerning rage on bosses that don't melee like a truck, but as a prot pally, if I'm in a similar situation I put on DPS gear. Does that suck? A little, especially if there's a time in the fight when you do need the uber tank raid gear to be on. I don't think this problem is exclusive to bears.
I can still go OOM if I go into BWD 10-man with full 359 tank gear on.
Arrohon Jun 14th 2011 5:21PM
You don't know what you're doing then. Judgement gives mana back and you can put on Seal of Insight if you have a threat lead for more mana and self-healing.
jonas Jun 14th 2011 5:56PM
1) use insight after the initial pull
2) glyph ascetic crusader
3) stack mastery so that you block a lot
Don't forget, you don't get mana back from getting healed anymore; the only thing wearing dps clothes is doing is pissing off your healers.
ryan.ferris Jun 14th 2011 6:02PM
Its called Divine Plea. Use it.
gewalt Jun 14th 2011 7:26PM
you really need to read your ability tooltips. you are very misinformed.
Shaadan Jun 14th 2011 4:31PM
Allison, great column as always. Your analysis is spot on, and most importantly is fair. Keep up the amazing work.
REDMJOEL Jun 14th 2011 4:31PM
I think what this Q&A showed is that none of the devs are actually playing druids, or at least not bears.
bldavis59 Jun 14th 2011 5:16PM
hear hear!
i played a pally in wrath, but i play a bear now (with GM tankadin) and i love it
i just wish more ppl would play the class/spec! (esp ppl at blizz!)
sporkwind Jun 15th 2011 5:22PM
yeah, druids in general. Tyler just did a post-mortum on the Balance rotation the other day too.
Kitty and Resto seem to be in managable positions if not the best ever, but Balance rotation is broken and bears feel like warriors with brain damage.
Sterb Jun 14th 2011 4:42PM
Great article Allison. I'm really happy to see some criticism here at WI as there's been a real lack of disagreement with what Blizzard says/does around here lately.
MysticalOS Jun 14th 2011 4:43PM
Question
"when are taunts going to not miss?"
Answer
"about 9 months ago"
the problem with the rating system is what the questions actually are is almost completely irrelevent, but rathor WHERE they are. if your question is on page 1-2 chances are it will be in Q&A no question about it, it will get most votes just do to the fact that majority are not going to go through 26 pages to upvote, and those that do won't matter cause their vote won't be the counting majority, which is lazy poeple that will read maybe 1-3 pages in then stop there.
I do wish blizz would moderate them more though and honestly delete any useless question that is dumb as hell. do you know how many poeple in the achievements Q&A a while back asked when we ewre getting new achievements for pet collecting? like 30ish from my count, out of 500 posts. that many people asked a question that was available in the PTR patch notes at the time!. furthermore, it was actually highly voted and actually got an answer in the Q&A. really? nothing annoys me more then stupid poeple, and even worse, more stupid poeple to vote the first one up.
that said however, even if question was very good, it really still doesn't matter cause blizzards answers are always terrible anyways. they dodge any question that's a hot item like vengeance mechanics. we all know threat on pull is pretty god aweful, and nearly impossible to maintain in 5 mans without a lot of vengeance, between rapid decay and slow gaining., the two biggest problems are pull threat, and 5 man threat. and blizz dodged question completely with a terrible answer
loop_not_defined Jun 14th 2011 5:28PM
The major point of the Q&As are to inform all the players that *don't* read patch notes or follow Blue Trackers and MMO-Champion. They are *not* intended to delve deep into huge issues requiring multi-paragraph bullet points as many players (and WoW Insider writers) appear to believe. There are other avenues for such discussion, like Dev Watercoolers and - more importantly - other players.
"Blizzard needs to address my issues."
No, they don't. They tried that. Players ripped Ghostcrawler to shreds *every single time* he poked his head into a thread. This very article is just another glaring example of how much condescension such involvement engendered. If you would like more proof, go take a gander at the MMO-Champion forums some day. See what happens when you mention the name "Greg Street".
Finally, if the majority of readers believe Taunts still miss, then Blizzard *should* inform them that Taunts don't miss. That's what the Q&A is for.
DragonFireKai Jun 14th 2011 5:33PM
@loop
The question about taunts not missing wasn't about taunts missing. It was not a highly rated post. It did not get as many votes as 50 other question that didn't get answered. It was a indicator of a poorly designed format for communication.
loop_not_defined Jun 14th 2011 6:20PM
@DragonFireKai
The question *was* about taunts missing. Downvotes are *not* counted by Blizzard, although they are by the forum code.
Also, Bashiok: "If we haven’t made an announcement on a topic yet, then chances are good we don’t yet think a change is necessary, or we’re not yet sure how we want to fix a problem. Therefore, it should not be surprising that many answers are going to say “we’re still considering it but have no announcements at this time.” If we have an upcoming change to announce, we’ll do that. We're not waiting for a player to ask just the right question.
The primary purpose of Ask the Devs is to help you understand the developer perspective and intent. If you want a list of upcoming changes, you’ll get more out of patch notes."
http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/165184/ask-the-devs-answers-2-pvp#post298