Shifting Perspectives: Why the tank Q&A sucked

Don't get me wrong: It's not that I don't like the developer Q&A sessions. They're a great idea, and although they don't make up for Ghostcrawler's absence from the forums, they're a nice insight into the developers' thought process and a peek at the issues that matter most to players. The effort's appreciated even when players ask pointless questions (of which the need to do so appears to be a congenital disorder) or use the opportunity to grandstand about issues no one cares about.
But the tank Q&A was ... not Blizzard's best effort. To borrow a phrase from Harry Knowles, I love hard-working Blizzard, I'm blown away by creative Blizzard, and I'm in awe of big-dreaming and overreaching Blizzard.
But I freaking hate lazy Blizzard.
In the tank Q&A we had the perfect storm of questions that didn't need to be asked, evasive answers to the questions that were asked, and on occasion, a complete lack of answers to questions that did need to be asked.
Ask the Devs #9: Tank Q&A
Q: Have you considered normalizing initial Rage for feral druid tanks? For example, when a warrior uses Charge, it generates 15 points of Rage, which lets them use another aggro generating ability quickly, something that Feral druids tend to be a bit short on. Why in Cataclysm was the bear bonus health pool was reduced, as well? Their survivability always depended on the amount of health since they don't have parry or shield block. Do you have any plans to improve bear tanking in the future? At the moment, it's considered to be the weakest tank. Have you considered giving druid tanks an additional tool to pull casters at range? It's the only tank class that doesn't have a talent or spell to help in those situations. – Pødêrøsø (LA), Вирко (EU-RU), Амелья (EU-RU), Condenacion (EU-ES), Whitewnd (KR)
A: Bears are getting a significant mitigation buff in 4.2 and we're retuning their damage such that it's a little easier to hold aggro at low gear levels, and a little harder at higher gear levels. While we definitely don't expect the community to ever agree on anything, we've seen little evidence of a widespread concurrence that druids are "the weakest tank." There are plenty of druid tanks out there, handling everything from Grim Batol to Sinestra. Tank balance overall is in a really good place. Players may focus on potential problems that could arise in the future but we also have ample time to address those problems should they occur. Gone are the days when we would just release a class into the wild and refuse to touch it again until the next expansion.
A: Bears are getting a significant mitigation buff in 4.2 and we're retuning their damage such that it's a little easier to hold aggro at low gear levels, and a little harder at higher gear levels. While we definitely don't expect the community to ever agree on anything, we've seen little evidence of a widespread concurrence that druids are "the weakest tank." There are plenty of druid tanks out there, handling everything from Grim Batol to Sinestra. Tank balance overall is in a really good place. Players may focus on potential problems that could arise in the future but we also have ample time to address those problems should they occur. Gone are the days when we would just release a class into the wild and refuse to touch it again until the next expansion.
Let's take this train wreck station by station:
- Rage normalization for feral tanks Not answered, and this is a real issue in any situation where you can't depend on an oversupply of rage from a boss that hits like a truck. Feral rage gain is simply not the equivalent of protection warrior rage gain, and it's not going to be as long as we're getting 3 rage per dodge, blowing rage for Feral Charge, and praying for Enrage to come off cooldown before the next pull. Hell, it took us until the most recent patch just to get Blizzard to yank the damage penalty off the damn skill. Compare this to the warrior's 15 rage for Shield Specialization and rage generation with Charge. While you can make the argument that the bear has Primal Fury to compensate, crit's rage generation doesn't reliably cover the difference. When you have to dodge five times to generate the same amount of rage that a warrior does with a single block -- and when you lose everything to shift out for anything else -- that's not good.
- Bear bonus health This one is all on the players and didn't need to be addressed yet again. Asking the developers the same question over and over again in the hopes that they'll somehow answer differently is pointless.
- Ranged silence Not answered. This is a perennial sore point for bears, as we're unquestionably worst-off while trying to make a clean pull with caster mobs. Every other tanking class has gotten DPS players accustomed to the practice of DPSing straight off a pull with a high-threat, ranged ability that forces a caster mob to move -- Death Grip, Heroic Throw, or the ne plus ultra of pull abilities, Avenger's Shield -- and the idea of waiting while the bear ducks behind a wall somewhere is completely foreign to modern groups. I have not had a single 5-man PUG since Wrath where every player was on board with the idea of waiting patiently for a line-of-sight pull.
- Everything else Nothing concrete or truly informative was said about bears here.
But not all tanks are created equal with respect to resource generation, rotation interest, utility, or multi-target tanking, and the two legitimate issues raised above show no signs of being addressed. It is enormously frustrating to see two decent questions wind their way through the approval process only to get picked but not answered.
Ask the Devs #9: Tank Q&A
Q: Have you ever considered adjusting DPS HP? Seems that while their large pools of health help them on "accidental" situations, a fair portion of the time they can take aggro and tank adds without consequence. – Jainel (LA)
A: We're generally happy with how well DPS are able to tank (which is to say, not very well). We like that they can take a hit or two (depending upon content) before dying, and that the penalty for that happening is a huge drain on healer mana.
A: We're generally happy with how well DPS are able to tank (which is to say, not very well). We like that they can take a hit or two (depending upon content) before dying, and that the penalty for that happening is a huge drain on healer mana.
Ask the Devs #9: Tank Q&A
Q: What are your intentions with each tank's mastery and mastery in general? – Migol (NA)
Druids: We're pretty happy with how mastery has turned out. It scales well, doesn't have any unintuitive or unfortunate interactions with other stats, and provides solid performance value.
Druids: We're pretty happy with how mastery has turned out. It scales well, doesn't have any unintuitive or unfortunate interactions with other stats, and provides solid performance value.
If tanks have achieved an acceptable level of parity with respect to single-target tanking, but two of them take significantly more damage from add packs, that's not balanced. That the two tanks concerned are also much less represented right now than their shield tank colleagues is also worrisome.
Ask the Devs #9: Tank Q&A
Q: Protection Paladin is not only the most desired tank because survival abilities for groups and various utilities, but players also generally consider Paladins as an indispensable Class in raids. I know all tanking Classes are being equalized constantly, but survival abilities of Protection Paladins give huge advantages compared to other tanking Classes. Can we expect that other Tanking classes will see more survival abilities for groups in terms of equity? – 디아소르테 (KR)
Because they can fill many roles and still provide a lot of utility, it's not surprising that you see a lot of druids and paladins in your raid groups ... Protection paladins do bring a lot of utility, but it is quite difficult to make a table comparing a paladin's Divine Guardian to a Protection warrior's mobility or a bear druid's ability to cast Innervate or even Rebirth during lulls in an encounter. They are fundamentally different abilities that have greater or less utility depending on the encounter and your individual raid comp. We don't want to just hand out a Divine Guardian equivalent to every tank class, just like we don't think warriors or paladins need the ability to battle rez. It's a fine line to walk. Homogenization really rankles some players (as it should), but being unable to tank (or heal, or DPS) an encounter because of lack of tools is equally unacceptable to many players.
Because they can fill many roles and still provide a lot of utility, it's not surprising that you see a lot of druids and paladins in your raid groups ... Protection paladins do bring a lot of utility, but it is quite difficult to make a table comparing a paladin's Divine Guardian to a Protection warrior's mobility or a bear druid's ability to cast Innervate or even Rebirth during lulls in an encounter. They are fundamentally different abilities that have greater or less utility depending on the encounter and your individual raid comp. We don't want to just hand out a Divine Guardian equivalent to every tank class, just like we don't think warriors or paladins need the ability to battle rez. It's a fine line to walk. Homogenization really rankles some players (as it should), but being unable to tank (or heal, or DPS) an encounter because of lack of tools is equally unacceptable to many players.
The first observation I can make in any discussion concerning tank "utility" is that the bear automatically starts at a heavy disadvantage relative to its plate tank colleagues. Why? Because every bit of utility we provide with the exception of Leader of the Pack is something that can't be done in bear form. In other words, you cannot be actively tanking in order to provide Innervate, pop Tranquility, or Rebirth a fallen player. While you can make a case for Stampeding Roar, in practice even melee DPSers are rarely within 10 yards of you given the size of the average boss' hit box.
Almost by definition, the utility that a bear druid provides to a raid is determined by the extent to which encounter design permits them to leave bear form. Not surprisingly, this is a strong disincentive to use a druid in a main tank capacity. The raid's better off relegating a bear player to the off tank role in order the maximize the number of opportunities he/she will have to leave form, and each time the druid will sacrifice all of his/her rage and Vengeance to do it. No other tank is asked to dump all of his/her resources or Vengeance stacks to, say, Raise Ally or Intervene.
And, as several players pointed out, comparing the feral Innervate -- a ghastly ~5,000 mana return to a single caster -- to a 20% reduction to damage taken by the entire raid (Divine Guardian) is somewhat irritating.
Ask the Devs #9: Tank Q&A
Q: As far as I remember, about five tanks were required in a 25-man group in Burning Crusade. However, the number of tanks in raids has been decreased to one or two since WotLK. I think this is one of the reasons heroic parties suffer from lack of tanks. What if raids have required more tanks? – 명장한니발 (KR)
A: We don't actually recall many four+ tank fights in Burning Crusade, and that includes fights like High King Maulgar where non-tanks could perform the tanking role. While we do find some elegance in a design where a 5-player group scales perfectly up to a 10 and 25-player group, that introduces some problems as well. It could potentially extend the tank shortage we see in 5-player dungeons up to raids (to be fair, it's also possible needing more tanks for raiding would create more tanks for dungeons). A larger problem is that we just don't want to over-constrain encounter design to always require 4 or 5 tanks. Sometimes it's nice to have a fight that's just a single bruiser without requiring a tank swap or meteor-style cleave. Nearly every raid fight in Cataclysm asks for two tank-specced characters, with a few requiring one or three. That's likely the model we will continue to use. If we wanted to do a fight with many tanks, we'd likely let some of the DPS specs step in.
A: We don't actually recall many four+ tank fights in Burning Crusade, and that includes fights like High King Maulgar where non-tanks could perform the tanking role. While we do find some elegance in a design where a 5-player group scales perfectly up to a 10 and 25-player group, that introduces some problems as well. It could potentially extend the tank shortage we see in 5-player dungeons up to raids (to be fair, it's also possible needing more tanks for raiding would create more tanks for dungeons). A larger problem is that we just don't want to over-constrain encounter design to always require 4 or 5 tanks. Sometimes it's nice to have a fight that's just a single bruiser without requiring a tank swap or meteor-style cleave. Nearly every raid fight in Cataclysm asks for two tank-specced characters, with a few requiring one or three. That's likely the model we will continue to use. If we wanted to do a fight with many tanks, we'd likely let some of the DPS specs step in.
The game needs far more tanks for 5-mans than it needs at the raid level, and Blizzard is essentially asking the majority of tanks out there to play at the 5-man level with no real hope of advancement unless they start their own raids. The problem is guaranteed to grow worse as an expansion winds on because no tank in blues -- or even the piecemeal assembly of epics to which they'll have access as more badge gear opens up -- can realistically step into future raids in the same fashion that a DPSer or healer can.
To Blizzard, if you're reading: No one needs answers to questions that didn't need to be asked, and if you don't intend to answer a selected question, then please answer something else. I understand that highly-voted questions are the most likely to be selected, but that does prejudice question choice in favor of whichever questions are asked the earliest because most players don't have the time to trawl through dozens of later pages.
To players: Read the freaking patch notes!
Shifting Perspectives helps you gear your bear druid at 85, tempts you with weapons, trinkets and relics for bears, then shows you what to do with it all in Feral Druid Tanking 101. We'll also help you gear your resto druid.
Filed under: Druid, Analysis / Opinion, (Druid) Shifting Perspectives
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Reader Comments (Page 4 of 5)
Ghost Jun 14th 2011 5:20PM
I agree with your analysis.
I've been a feral bear since BC, where I crunched huge amounts of numbers to convince my group that it might conceivably be reasonable to let a bear tank. And then got a number of our first kills with my bear tanking (Gruul, Molgrim, a few of the BT bosses), so I've long been a bear theorycrafter and bear advocate.
I've gone feral full dodge/agi set up on my bear, and intelligently use tolvir potions during raids. I have trouble tanking heroic-5s because I'm rage starved. For some of the 10-man normal boss fights, I'm sitting at like 30% of the vengeance cap. And often not able to use maul much because I'm short on rage. We got the achievement for Chimaeron on our first kill with bear still alive, because dodge bear is damn hard to hit and kill when all possible cooldowns are used well.
But I compare this to my paladin or my DK, and only bear feels resource starved.
Snuzzle Jun 14th 2011 5:25PM
I'm SO GLAD that I am not the only one who noticed the blatant misdirection on question number one. I read the question, then read the answer, paused, and e-read the answer about five times before blurting, "But that didn't address the concern at all!"
For shame Blizzard. It's about time Feral Charge generated rage instead of sucked rage. Even though Enrage doesn't affect our mitigation anymore, it wholly sucks to b the only tank who has to sit around and wait for our one-minute cooldown if we have to pause too long before a pull. I can't tell you how many times I've blown Enrage, gotten ready to pull, only to hear on Vent "WAIT!" While watching my rage tick down. It gets to zero then I hear "Okay, sorry, go," and I have to reply "Waiting on enrage, 30 seconds :\"
Noyou Jun 14th 2011 5:28PM
Skull bash, hibernate, Cyclone not working for you? Come on druids have a lot of utility too.
Enrage for boss fights? Lets not let DPS off the hook too. No reason why they cant help with casters. This is a fundamental that should have been addressed early in Cata. Adapt. Sure they can adjust some things but don't say you are totally gimped. That just isn't the case. People were saying DK tanking was fail yet all thru LK DK's (who knew what they were doing) were tanking high end raids just fine.
Hollow Leviathan Jun 14th 2011 5:27PM
I got fairly attacked for saying much the same as this when the Q&A came out. Glad to see my worries for the bear tanks out there vindicated, even if I'd be more glad if it was by Blizz.
DragonFireKai Jun 14th 2011 5:37PM
"Tank balance with respect to survivability versus single targets is probably the best it's ever been, and this is a huge leap forward from the classic game and The Burning Crusade. I have very unpleasant memories of druid tanks being singled out by discriminatory boss mechanics like Fear, Pyroblast, Deaden, and Shear, and the odds of our ever dealing with crap like that again aren't high. Hell, Cataclysm is even a step in the right direction from encounters like Sartharion (death knights), Vezax (bears), Algalon (warriors/paladins), Anub'arak (warriors/paladins), and Arthas (bears). The problems we've got today are peanuts by comparison."
Hollow Leviathan Jun 14th 2011 5:46PM
That is in fact the caveat to the rest of the article, yes.
DragonFireKai Jun 14th 2011 5:55PM
""we've seen little evidence of a widespread concurrence that druids are "the weakest tank." "
I find this hard to believe, since it's systemic for my area of play. I realize this is anecdotal, but I just don't see druid tanks, and everyone I know thinks they're the worst. That's randoms since the launch of Cata and a large population server (KilJaeden)."
Survivability is what matters. Survivability is the only thing that truly matters. Everything else, the druids wanting a ranged silence, paladins wanting more mobility, death knights not wanting to micro manage their survival, warriors wanting more initial snap threat, those are all quality of life issues. It seemed like you were claiming that Druids were lagging behind in survivability, which they are not. Worrying about those quality of life issues is like arguing between a corvette and a camaro based on the sound system.
Hollow Leviathan Jun 14th 2011 5:58PM
I'd argue that they're significantly increased survivability difficulties against multiple targets and real problems with snap aggro and rage generation in 5mans is more problematic than the sound system between cars. More like getting horrible in-town gas mileage. It works, but it's a real problem.
DragonFireKai Jun 14th 2011 6:48PM
Since the change to Savage Defenses to a bubble that doesn't break on one hit, the amount of damage that druids take in AoE situations is comperable to paladins and DKs, although slightly behind warriors. It's random, and sometimes results in spikes, but on average it comes out close enough that a druid can, and has, tanked adds on heroic nefarian, maloriak, magmaw, and sinestra. It's nothing like Anub'arak.
Most warrior snap aggro issues are due to tanks building specs tailored for 5 man AoE fests or for maximum survivability. Warriors have a lot of variety with where their build can take them, as opposed to druids and paladins who really only have 4 or 5 talent points that they can move. If the warriors specced into war academy, cruelty, and heavy repercussions instead of blitz, blood craze, and thunderstuck, they wouldn't be having those issues, in fact, they'd have the best snap aggro of all tanks.
Rage generation is annoying, but it's something that can typically be worked around, furor+enrage, faerie fire pull instead of feral charge. You'll have plenty of rage. Not as much as a warrior, but enough to roll right into the rotation.
As for DK micro managing, I actually enjoy. My paladin has the unstoppable advantage of being my very first character, but I truly enjoy tanking on my DK. It's very engaging. I find my warrior and druid to be extremely boring to tank on.
Furlover Jun 14th 2011 5:29PM
This is an excellent thread - well said!
mdienekes Jun 14th 2011 5:32PM
"No one needs answers to questions that didn't need to be asked, and if you don't intend to answer a selected question, then please answer something else. I understand that highly-voted questions are the most likely to be selected, but that does prejudice question choice in favor of whichever questions are asked the earliest because most players don't have the time to trawl through dozens of later pages."
Tremendous post, I agree that Blizzard is a great company that makes some great decisions, but lately I have seen them being lazy, and the vast majority of the WoW Blogs and podcasts seem to continually tow the company line. However, this article is an exception to that. You clearly convey where Blizzard is messing up our game without screaming that the sky is falling. Great Work.
Oteo Jun 14th 2011 5:32PM
God. Reading this just further cements my decision to not start tanking on my bear. She was my first tank, but after I started tanking on my warrior alt (almost level 81 now!) I felt like, "Really? This is what tanking could be like--fun? Bear tanking sucks." Just remembering that Feral Charge eats rage instead of generating it made me feel ill.
gewalt Jun 14th 2011 7:28PM
feral was my first tank as well. I abandoned feral tanking at the start of wrath and started a dk tank and then a warrior tank. every now and then I try tanking again on my feral/feral druid, but it just feels all wrong compared to a "real" tank class.
/sigh
my druid was awesome.
G Jun 14th 2011 5:33PM
Proof: Our level 85 reward was ticklish mushrooms that we can't even use in animal form. QED.
terph Jun 14th 2011 5:42PM
I just want to mention that I think a lot more players should learn the fine art of LoS pulls. I love them with any flavor of tank, furry or covered in plate. They're an elegant and tidy way of pulling your pack. However, pulling trash well is definitely a lost art. I gauge the skill of a tank pretty fast in how they pull trash. Usually the ones who know how to pull without making chaos are also skilled in staying alive, gearing appropriately and situational awareness.
thebitterfig Jun 14th 2011 6:50PM
True, to a point. LoS is an important skill, but it's useless unless there are things to block that line of sight. Twisty dungeons with doorways work great, not all instances are laid out like that. LoS just isn't a practical option sometimes, particularly if there is a set of with casters in the pack. LoS when you've already got one group beating on you is pretty hairy. Every other tank has some way to bring casters in, bears don't.
terph Jun 14th 2011 7:22PM
Oh yeah, I don't argue that bears need a way to silence at range. That's definitely an unfair deficiency. Although if you have a good team that can help rein in the casters, that can be another solution. But in the LFG dungeon runs, you really can't count on that.
Noyou Jun 14th 2011 8:52PM
I dunno maybe I do things totally wrong. If there is one caster, you pounce on them first. If there is 2- you CC/silence one and pounce on the other. It's great for the tank to silence/CC and beat the shit out of every mob but realistically there should be one DPS or even the healer that can put a muzzle on a caster yes?
RabidWalrus Jun 14th 2011 5:50PM
Honestly if they would make it to where you feral charged to gain rage instead of using it to charge, i would jump for joy. I find it way to annoying to have to use enrage or pop in and out of bear form to get enough rage to charge.
Jolly Jun 14th 2011 6:20PM
Innervate is a fantastic utility. On my boomkin/resto druid. On a bear, I can't imagine it's that great.
I don't have the foggiest idea how paladin healers perform, and defer to other posters on that one.