Scattered Shots: Improving the hunter marksmanship tree
by Brian Wood 
Jun 16th 2011 at 4:00PM
Every Thursday, WoW Insider brings you Scattered Shots for beast mastery, marksmanship and survival hunters. Frostheim of Warcraft Hunters Union uses logic and science (mixed with a few mugs of dwarven stout) to look deep into the hunter class. Mail your hunter questions to Frostheim.
Last week we seized upon a passing comment made by World of Warcraft Lead Systems Designer Ghostcrawler to examine how to improve the BM hunter tree. There was a great deal of consensus about several elements, including ditching Intimidation as the bonus ability and replacing it with Bestial Wrath or Beast Mastery, stealing some talents from the MM tree and ditching some from the BM tree. There was also a wealth of other suggestions from the hunter community; far too many to list here.
Today we move on from BM into what I think will likely be a far more contentious discussion, since MM hunters are just a more contentious lot in general. MM has had a pretty good run recently as the unmatched top DPS spec by far for the latter half of Wrath, then holding onto its position, albeit with a vastly smaller lead, in Cataclysm so far. However, upcoming nerfs in patch 4.2 promise to close the MM gap.
Join me after the cut for a discussion of the marksmanship talent tree. If Ghostcrawler was reading this, what would you suggest be changed?
Last week we seized upon a passing comment made by World of Warcraft Lead Systems Designer Ghostcrawler to examine how to improve the BM hunter tree. There was a great deal of consensus about several elements, including ditching Intimidation as the bonus ability and replacing it with Bestial Wrath or Beast Mastery, stealing some talents from the MM tree and ditching some from the BM tree. There was also a wealth of other suggestions from the hunter community; far too many to list here.
Today we move on from BM into what I think will likely be a far more contentious discussion, since MM hunters are just a more contentious lot in general. MM has had a pretty good run recently as the unmatched top DPS spec by far for the latter half of Wrath, then holding onto its position, albeit with a vastly smaller lead, in Cataclysm so far. However, upcoming nerfs in patch 4.2 promise to close the MM gap.
Join me after the cut for a discussion of the marksmanship talent tree. If Ghostcrawler was reading this, what would you suggest be changed?
What we're talking about
I just want to point out at the outset that we are not looking at DPS balance issues here, which are a separate thing.
What we're interested in are the talent trees themselves; how they feel and function. I also think that specializations and masteries are fair game, and of course we want to pay attention to the interaction of the talent tree and the "feel" of the MM hunter and rotation.
The MM talent treeFor reference, here is the MM talent tree as it stands now. (You can play with it in detail on Wowhead). I've tossed on here some of the talents that we typically take for a raiding build (though there is variability there), but in discussing potential talent changes, we have to take PVP into account just as much (and I am very much a random BG very casual PVPer).
MM specializations
MM hunters get the following special bonuses just for choosing the MM tree:
- Bonus Ability: Aimed Shot
- Specialization: Artisan Quiver
- Mastery: Wild Quiver
Our specialization and mastery are both useful and help secure the feel of the tree as the spec that focuses on actually shooting things and dealing ranged physical damage. Personally, I'm fine with all of these as they stand.
Talent changes
Once we get to the talent trees themselves we can pretty quickly find things that could be changed around. Like the BM tree, we have some extra talent points to spend in our tree, but unlike BM these choices are actually choices -- and we have actual DPS options for all of them. Unfortunately, some of the choices get really confusing.
The more I think about talents, the more I appreciate how difficult balancing the top tier of each tree is. When you consider it from the perspective of another tree looking to spread their excess points, there's almost always an obvious right choice. I almost wonder if the right idea wouldn't be to make sure that no first-tier talents boosted DPS at all. Then you have to spend those points on a non-DPS option, at which point you suddenly have a choice.
Once you get down to the second tier you can then have significantly more awesome abilities, because the cost to get there is much higher -- you would have to have spent 5 points on fun, quality of life, or survivability talents before you can take them.
I think that's an idea worth considering, but for the time being I'm going to set it aside and look at what I'd tweak with the talent trees as they are.
GftT and Sic' Em: Right at the top, we have to wonder a little bit why these are in the MM tree. Don't get me wrong, MM hunters love our pets too and we're happy to grab these talents to buff our DPS, but they feel like they belong to the BM hunters.
Efficiency: Personally, I think Efficiency a pretty dull talent -- and it's something all specs end up having to take (BM has to take it just to get their pet talents on the second tier of the MM tree). A multi-level talent offering a passive bonus that is considered required for all specs sounds to me like the kind of thing that we want to get rid of. I say replace Efficiency with something else, or possibly change the talent into something more interesting -- like lowering the cost of one shot significantly, or making Steady Shot regen more focus -- or heck, how about giving us our range extension talent back? That should have belonged to MM anyway.
Then we come to the fourth tier of the MM talent tree, which is the place where I have the most issues with talents. This tier is just plain odd.
Resistance is Futile: While the Resistance is Futile talent can certainly give us some nice benefit, and it's great in PvP, it just doesn't feel like a MM talent. The MM rotation is sufficiently challenging without trying to toss Kill Command into the mix. I'm fine with the idea that KC is available to MM and SV to use in PvP and if we ever have another fight where we're out of LoS of the boss, but I really don't think it should be something we regularly use in boss fights -- but with Resistance is Futile, it is. In any fight where the boss is apt to move a decent amount, either on it's own or through regular tank repositioning (so most bosses at some point), this becomes a valid DPS talent choice, and really screws with the MM rotation in the process. Give it to BM, I say.
Termination: Termination looks pretty attractive on the surface, but in practice it can be difficult to actually make use of the additional focus because of how incredibly rigid the MM rotation is. Because it's only available at the very end of the fight, we're already using Kill Shots and free Kill Shots from our glyph (making us already more focus positive at the end of the fight) in our rotation, and we still want to hit our Chimera Shot every cooldown, and we have to maintain our Improved Steady Shot buff with pairs of Steady Shots. It just doesn't leave much space for an extra shot to use the extra focus. This talent would be far better if it just didn't only apply during the last 25% of a boss fight. Either move it to something that's available earlier, or change it from increasing focus regen to just flat increasing damage during that period (or increasing damage of certain shots -- comboing with Kill Shot could make sense).
What do you think?
So these are my thoughts on tweaking the MM talent tree. The main things I'd want to focus on would be fixing up the messy talents in the fourth tier, and moving all those pet-centric talents over to BM where they are a better thematic fit.
But how about you guys? If Ghostcrawler were reading this article, what would you want to tell him about the MM talent tree?
Scattered Shots is dedicated to helping you learn everything it takes to be a hunter. From leveling your hunter through optimizing for heroics, pre-heroic loot and pre-raid loot, then on to choosing the right spec for the right job and how to "aspect dance" to maximize your DPS, we've got you covered.
Filed under: Hunter, (Hunter) Scattered Shots
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Shadda Jun 16th 2011 2:42PM
Resistance is Futile should proc off of other hunters' Hunter's Marks. At the moment, having two MM hunters in a raid means trying to one-up each other.
Lowlight Jun 17th 2011 11:04AM
Skinning a bear should aggro every bears in a 40 yard radius.
Boz Jun 16th 2011 3:27PM
As MM I'd like an option to remove my pet in favor of interesting DPS mechanics. "Bear" with me.
In no tree of any class is there an option to give up an ability in favor of another. Death Knights and Mages can opt for trees that make a summoned pet permanent, and Warlocks have their Demons, but there is no talent to remove an existing mechanic as a trade-off for something else. The closest you get is Life Tap, swapping Health for Mana.
If Beast Mastery is the chosen tree of Dar and Survival Rambo's, than Marksmanship is certainly the Legolas tree, in terms of feel. It'd be interesting to ask players to relinquish pet mechanics, possibly at the level cap, and the associated utility (buffs, Master's Call) in favor of focusing on the core abilities that make MM awesome: Readiness, Wild Quiver, and (to a degree) Rapid Fire.
You could further introduce interesting special abilities and improve existing abilities to compensate, such as allowing Kill Shot at 30% health instead of 20%. Or maybe a "chain shot" (think Scorpion from Mortal Kombat) than instantly pulls you to the target (in a boss fight, it would instantly pull you via the chain to the boss, you could drop a trap, and instantly disengage, making for an interesting rotation). Or maybe just introduce combos ala fighting games where you fire AS, AS, Steady, Steady, and you proc an instant flaming arrow or something.
It's not the ability suggestions I'm interested in so much as the tradeoff, though. I like that I have to make tradeoffs in certain aspects of the game, and while you can pry my bear from my cold dead fingers as Beast Mastery and, to a lesser extent, Survival, from a flavor and game mechanics standpoint I'd like to see this kind of tough choice implemented.
The Dewd Jun 16th 2011 4:17PM
As a part-time hunter, I like this suggestion. It would probably be a terrible hassle to program and might be forced to be either a opt-in choice (like turning off XP gains) or a secondary top-tier talent (laterally attached to Chimera shot).
I suspect Blizzard wouldn't like either of those ways of doing it but it would still make sense to do so. Not having to manage a pet would be an interesting way to play the class - though, as stated, it would be an end-game choice not a leveling/soloing choice. (Sure, you'd have the occasional maniac who leveled that way without a pet but that's for someone else to work out the details on.)
You could also make it so that it is a deep MM talent that allows you to boost damage or whatever if you have no active pet. Not a dead pet (that would be more of a BM talent - enrage when your pet dies) but no active summoned pet.
Ultimately, Blizzard would be loathe to remove the pet from the hunter class as pets and ranged weapons are the core of the class. But I think Boz is onto something here - it would certainly help differentiate the playstyle of MM even further from BM/SV.
Ryski007 Jun 16th 2011 5:42PM
Maybe give up the pet for a second ranged weapon?
serversanidiot Jun 16th 2011 5:54PM
nice ideas but i dont like them personally, won't make hunters any different from other classes as you mentioned, having pets in 1 spec, having pets is what truly makes hunter different from other classes.
The chains also a nice idea but as ranged class pulling us closer to the target serves no point since then we will be to close to use our range weapons and therefore unable to do optimal dps.
Im really not sure what could be changed with the MM spec, obviously some os the talents could be swapped from the BM spec as mentioned in last weeks post like Sic'em etc, all in all MM is a pretty nice spec, talent wise.
Zapwidget Jun 16th 2011 5:54PM
The idea is interesting, and I'll spec my main hunter MM for life.
But taking away my scorpid is akin to cutting off my balls with a dull blade.
serversanidiot Jun 16th 2011 5:58PM
although i do like the 2 range weapons idea, like fury warriors can use 2 2H weapons.
Boz Jun 16th 2011 6:16PM
"having pets is what truly makes hunter different from other classes" (serversanidiot)
I realize that pets are a "Sacred Cow" of the Hunter class, but opting out of a pet does not make a Hunter a Mage, Warlock, or Death Knight. Hunters use physical damage at range, in many cases instantly, and have dozens of unique abilities not available to other classes, including Feign Death, Traps, and - in the case of MM - Readiness.
Even from a flavor standpoint, notching an arrow or loading a gun is not the same as casting a spell. I'm willing to bet many gamers would love to focus more on being an archer or sniper over pet management (thought I personally prefer the latter).
Further, there are many pet classes. Having pets alone does not differentiate Hunters from other classes. Having a talent to relinquish pet management as an optional top-tree talent like Titan's Grip alongside Single-Minded Fury would make for an interesting decision and add some variety & flavor to the class.
Artificial Jun 16th 2011 6:36PM
I do have to say, one of the things that made the Ranger class in Guild Wars so much better than Hunters in WoW was the fact that the pet was *optional*, and you could instead put some other DPS-increasing skills in the slots you'd otherwise devote to having a pet if you wanted to be an marksman, not an animal handler. (Realistically speaking, did most archers in history do a significant amount of their damage by commanding animals rather than shooting arrows? Didn't think so...)
(OTOH, one of the bad things about Rangers in Guild Wars is they never did make actually using a pet attractive enough...)
Pyromelter Jun 16th 2011 8:01PM
"having pets is what truly makes hunter different from other classes."
Here are the classes that have some form of pet:
Druid
Death Knight
Hunter
Mage
Paladin
Priest
Shaman
Warlock
Also, warlocks also have perma-pets in all 3 specs. True, hunters are the only ones that "tame" pets, but that wouldn't go away with a marks tree.
I just also really wanted to agree with the commenter. I love ranged dps, and I really hate pets. No other class uses a ranged weapon as it's primary combat dps. Marksmanship is also really the most fitting spec for a pet-less hunter. I like the idea of being a sniper, or a legolas-type archer. Pets don't really fit in with that model, and correct me if I'm wrong, but marksmen get the least dps from their pets anyway, right? So it wouldn't be that hard to balance (because you don't have to make up for a lot of lost pet dps).
Angus Jun 16th 2011 8:51PM
This happened in BC.
After a wipe there was a hilarious amount of pseudo-orgasmic sighs as the Warlocks would sac them to get the buff with shadowbolt.
We called them Shadow Mages. Blizzard hated it. They didn't feel like warlocks.
serversanidiot Jun 16th 2011 9:41PM
u are all taking what i meant out of context, i know they are more to the hunter than just the pets but what im saying was that the pets are as much of what makes a hunter a hunter as there other ability's, pets are considered as ability's as an extension the hunter, DK, mage etc, yes a few other classes can use pets but only in select specs and ONE thing that sets hunters a part is our pets, when u say lock, DK, Mage u never give a 2nd thought to there pets but with hunter you do, they bring nearly every buff and debuff to the raid, have 3 different spec types and can be used to fit nearly every roll, although i dont think spirit mend is enough to keep the raid alive they can do almost an every think else, they're also lots of different animal with hundreds of different colors and types, you cant really call a hunter a hunter out a pet, they would be called a ranger or some think.
Ace Jun 17th 2011 10:59AM
"you cant really call a hunter a hunter out a pet, they would be called a ranger or some think."
hunter
noun
1. a person who hunts game or other wild animals for food or in sport.
2. a person who searches for or seeks something: a fortune hunter.
Nothing about pets there. Every time I go hunting, I do so without a pet. I think a more accurate statement would be "you cant really call a BM hunter a BM hunter without a pet, it would be called something else", as BM is the only pet-centric hunter tree. But, we're not talking about BM.
I actually like this idea. I've played several similar classes in other MMO's, and it would be a refreshing change. As for the abilities mentioned, I liked the fighting-game style combos to proc a shot. You could even work it into the existing mechanics/abilities and just have it proc your free aimed shot instead.
Point is, pets don't "make" the hunter class. They don't even set it apart. I will say that pets make the BM tree though. The flavor of the marksman tree is all about taking an arrow/bullet and making it count. Taking the ONLY class that does its DPS with a ranged weapon, and making that ranged weapon better.
Your bow/gun/xbow is what makes the hunter class. You can say that pets are "ONE of the things", but many classes have pets. A few have perma-pets. NONE use ranged weapons as their main weapons, save for us hunters. Thus, it is our ranged slot that makes us hunters, and it is that same ranged slot that is supposed to be the specialty of the marks tree.
I think this is a great idea. Needs to be polished a bit, but the premise itself is outstanding.
SlavedHeart Jun 17th 2011 11:52AM
New Talent: Go It Alone - You relinquish your pet in exchange for 10%haste 10%crit, 25% of your base agility and your party receives 3%haste (on top of TSA)...
This way, blizz could easily adjust the stats involved with a pet trade-off using little more than a hotfix.
As a MM Hunter main (even before AP stacking), and only for the MM tree.. I really like this idea...
Vogie Jun 17th 2011 12:17PM
I have to agree. On one hand, in raw numbers PvE playstyle, the Pet is little more than a self-refreshing DoT. On the other side, removing the pet for a leveler or PvP removes some utility, removes a "stun" (as the target will attack the pet first, aggro wise), and the ability to attack around corners.
So even a strict damage boost on the top of the MM tree that removes the pet class feature won't likely be used until lategame raiding, which is different than the Fury duality, as that actually gives the player a choice where both sides are equally valid.
I suppose you could replace Chimera shot with one that does similar damage, but also applies a DoT, a small slow, and can hit targets out of line of sight (Wanted movie jokes encouraged).
thebitterfig Jun 17th 2011 4:11PM
I personally would hate to see pets go away from any Hunter spec, but Bliz could stand to put in more work about getting pets to me more involved than auto-dots and more tailored to each spec.
The BM pet-image seems fine - it's the face-eating pet. MM would do well to evoke the image of some upper class British nobleman, who's using his purebred to flush birds out of the rough so he can shoot them, then the dog returns the corpses to the hunter. In WoW terms, that's probably more like your pet helping to set up the target for big shots. Almost as if your pet rather than your Steady Shots provided the Master Marksman buff, or perhaps a Chimera Shot version of Improved Lava Lash (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=77701).
Maybe each spec ought to get a new Pet ability in addition to a Hunter ability.
For BM, this could remain Intimidation, but add in a Hunter ability. For MM, add something called "Flush Out" in addition to Aimed Shot. It could be a hunter-equivalent of Colossus Smash, a medium-length cooldown to provide a short-term, hunter-only debuff on the boss for you to exploit.
Ridgewood Jun 29th 2011 12:03PM
I think this is a fabulous idea. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE BM, and often wish it were more viable as a raiding spec. (like in BC, but without the rigid rotation) In my own head, I still think of BM as my main spec, even though I haven't raided with it for years.
When I play MM however, I find my pet to be just a plain nuisance. It's like trying to keep a bunny alive in butcher shop, and if the thing dies, I really don't want to rez it. It will just die again. Why? Because I just don't have the time in my rotations to really worry about the thing. There are many fights where I just put it on passive because then at least I know I will get the buff. In BM, I pay attention, because it's too important. Marks, not so much.
Bottom line: I agree, Marks isn't about the pet. I'd love a chance to get rid of it in favor of that DPS being given though some other method.
Androb Jun 30th 2011 1:25PM
perhaps instead of having a talent that makes the hunter inable of summoning his pet, give MM a move that is only usable while a pet is not actively summoned. OR give a talent that increases physical damage done by the MM hunter for the approximate ammount of DPS increase that pets give(Im not sure but my guess would be between 5-15% of dps)..
With the later it would actually give the MM hunter the option of removing the pet or keeping it as it would be about the same dps with both. The only problem I can see with it is that it would remove a talent point that could be better used somewhere else for dps gains, rather than an aesthetic appeal. Maybe it would be better off as a glyph(probably major, maybe minor)
I am by no means an expert on the hunter class.. Im just throwing some ideas out on the table
nygaard-ren-magi Aug 7th 2011 3:58PM
I just came across this post. Yes I know it's a decent amount of time ago :P but I got so outraged by your comment, about being able to choose not to have a pet for other benefits... the only way I can describe how much I disagree with this is: I would rather rip off my penis and throw it in a river, than loosing my pet.
You sir, are NOT a mighty hunter! you're nothing but a closet mage, who rolled the wrong class and cba to level another char to 85. But what you do instead is writing STUPID comments on ze internet. That's just my opinion ;)