Ready Check: Catacysm raid changes a tier later

When Cataclysm was being developed, Blizzard announced a lot of changes that they would be making to the raiding scene. Specifically, 10- and 25-man raids would now essentially be considered one and the same. They would share the same lockout, reward the same loot, and generally be considered as equal.
The community, in their grand resistance to change, called foul on many of these changes. Certainly, WotLK created an embitterment towards 10-man raiding as being "easier" or a "lower class" of raiding that simply wasn't on the same scope as 25-man raiding. In their defense, they had every right to think this because that is exactly how Blizzard had made raids at the time.
Now that we've been through a whole tier of raiding under these changes, and as we move onto the next tier, it is time to reflect back on all of the arguments that sprouted and see how realistic they really were.
Rant 1: 10-man content is easier
Shooting right at the heart of the fight, there largest concern regarding having both 10- and 25-man content provide the same rewards was that 10-man raiders wouldn't face nearly the same challenge as 25-man raiders. Way back to what seems like forever ago, 10-man content was easier. In fact, raiding first at the 10-man level in order to advance into the 25-man level was considered to be a common trend. Although the gear rewards weren't the same, they still provided that extra boost that could help a struggling guild progress.
In Cataclysm, I feel that Blizzard has actually done a rather good job in terms of balancing the difficulty of encounters across the two raid sizes. That being said, there are certainly some very obvious discrepancies between the two that can cause a little bit of friction.
The first is one of cooldowns. The entire raiding scene this expansion has been all about cooldowns, no one cares how much you can actually heal for, it's all about how much damage you can mitigate. In this respect, 10-man content certainly has an easier go of the matter. This is because there are several abilities that have artificial caps on them. Anti-Magic Zone is a clear example of this.
Dropping an Anti-Magic Zone in a 25-man raid and a 10-man raid will probably result in the same amount of damage being mitigated due to the cap, yet in the 10-man raid there's significantly less damage going out. Nefarian is a prime example of this with his Electrocute ability. While AMZ will clearly break early in both situations, it would reduce a larger percentage of the overall damage in a 10-man raid.
The off-set of this is numbers. While such cooldowns are more effective in 10-man content, one would expect more of them in 25-man content. This dichotomy that exists between the two creates a natural balance, but is it balanced? Certainly healing in 10-man content is less intensive, but at the same time one can easily make the argument that each healer has more pressure on them because there is a disproportionate amount of healers. A 10-man with two healers has 1/5 of the raid healing, which equates to five healers in 25-man, yet six is a more common number to see.
I've seen nearly all 10-man content healed by a single healer once the raid is on farm. Though the accounts of 25-man content using two and half healers are fewer, it's possible that such occurrences simply aren't talked about as much.
Balancing encounter mechanics
For what it is worth, most content has been pretty evenly balanced at this point, but there are still some rather obvious outliers that deal exclusively with encounter mechanics themselves. It's a fact that we have to face: Certain mechanics will always be easier to handle in 10-man content, while others will always be easier in 25.
The Twilight Ascendant Council, as an example, is far easier in 10-man instead of 25-man. This is because the spreading mechanic that players have to deal with is simpler with fewer players. Further, DPS control is easier to do with fewer DPS, particularly fewer DOT effects ticking off on a boss. Perhaps the most grievous case of this offense was Al'akir, who was ridiculously easier to defeat in 10-man content than 25-man. So much easier, in fact, that many 25-man guilds broke down into 10-man raids just to tackle this encounter.
To be fair, not everything is rosy for 10-man raiders either. Encounters which rely heavier on certain class mechanics are far more difficult for them to handle. Cho'gall proved this rather effectively. 10-man guilds had a lot more composition trouble in having to deal with slowing adds and breaking mind controls. There are a plethora of abilities that can break Worship, but it's easier to do in 25 than 10.
The same is also true for encounters which require the use of a player to perform a secondary task. Having a death knight kite adds for Magmaw or Conclave of Winds is trivial for a 25-man group whom have plenty of players to spare. It's a bit harder to do this in a 10-man, though, where you don't have the player capital to go around.
With pros and cons on either side, it's difficult to say that either holds less value than the other. The reality is that both offer their own, unique challenges that have different ways of over coming them.
Rant 2: 10-mans require less logistical planning
Getting 25 different people together and running in a smooth raiding guild is tough work -- any guild or raid leader can attest to this. If it isn't one problem, then it's another. 25-man content requires more coordination, period. You need more time to set up player roles, more time recruiting, more supplies, more everything. It isn't easy, and for that 25-man raiding guilds felt they should be rewarded for the additional effort.
Blizzard agreed with this sentiment and offered superior loot gains for raiding in a 25-man setting, allowing you to gear up players faster (at least in the theoretical sense). While this wasn't entirely enough for some players, I frankly think that it is overly generous.
While there is no denying that it is more difficult to organize a 25-man raid, 10-man raiders certainly face tough logistical problems of their own. Raid composition matters far more in a 10-man raid than it does to a 25-man raid. This can actually result in recruitment problems just as difficult as those seen by 25-man guilds.
A 25-man raid doesn't need to stack any particular class nor spec. They need a few bare essentials, but after that, a vast majority of players are pretty much filler. Have two or three balance druids? Whatever, sucks for them to fight over the gear. Four hunters? Who cares? Having a surplus of any particular class or spec isn't really prohibitive in that setting.
This simply isn't the case for a 10-man raiding guild. You have far fewer options in the type of spec or class that you can take, and every one of those choices matters far more. For example, a 10-man raid with a fury warrior, retribution paladin, shadow priest, elemental shaman, and arcane mage as their primary raiding DPS is going to be in a really sore spot for AOE and slows.
Who you takes matters far more in a 10-man raid. There, your composition can literally make or break you for certain encounters. There's buff stacking to worry about, cooldown disparity, and a slew of other concerns that you have to juggle, too. 25-man raids aren't easy to organize by any means, but anyone who claims that 10-man players can just pick up nearly anyone and go is fooling themselves. Ten-man raids take their fair share of planning.
Rant 3: 25-man raids won't matter, guilds will die!
OMG RUN! RUN! RUN! It's the guild-pocalypse! Guilds all across the WoW-verse are suddenly going to implode and no one anywhere is going to be raiding 25-man content ever! Hide your children! Hide your wives! Hide your cute, fluffy teddy bears!
There was a lot of hubbub that every single raiding guild in the game was suddenly just going to disappear and that the days of the 25-man raider were numbered. Why would you bother running 25-man content if it was harder, more logistically challenged, and didn't actually offer anything tangible in return?
On the personal side of things, back then, somewhere deep down, I probably shared this fear. The guild that I had spent all of TBC and Wrath with died due to this very specific change. We were a struggling 25-man guild that was always recruiting people, and constantly looking for people. All in all, we were average. When it came about that we could do 10-man raids in Cataclysm and get the same rewards, that was that. We became a 10-man guild.
I prefer my 25-man raids and wanted to keep that, so I set off. It left me wondering how many other people had the same experience that I did. In all honesty, there's probably a large number. And yet, 25-man raiding didn't die in the least.
Twenty-five-man raiding still happens all over Azeroth. New 25-man guilds crop up all the time, and there just isn't any real sense that it's a waste of time to work towards 25-man raiding. It is clearly a matter of preference, and you'll gravitate to the one you like the most. If you want a 25-man raid group, you can easily find one, just as it was before.
Where will we go from here?
This has only been the first Cataclysm tier. The changes are still just settling in and no one can ever really predict what the future is going to hold. The player base changes as the demographic changes, and with that comes different needs. It is unlikely that we will ever return to the previous days of 40-man raiding, and I will honestly say that any new MMO out there which tries such a thing will only be able to reach a niche level of success that simply won't compare to what WoW has grown into.
MMOs themselves are changing, because those that play MMOs are changing. The original player base is getting older; their wants and desires morph with their age. The new young guns hold different ideas and values when it comes to gaming. Further, the "older" generation is becoming more and move involved in the gaming community. As time changes all things, so will games adjust. This has been one raiding adjustment; so far I believe it has worked out rather well.
What shall the future hold for the raid setting as a whole?
Ready Check shares all the strategies and inside information you need to take your raiding to the next level. Be sure to look up our strategy guides to Cataclysm's 5-man instances, and for more healer-centric advice, visit Raid Rx.
Filed under: Raiding, Ready Check (Raiding)
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Reader Comments (Page 3 of 4)
Trisnic Jun 17th 2011 7:41PM
I agree with this completely, I far prefer the epic feel of downing things on 25 man. I can just feel the excitement from the raid and the cheering and yelling is always great. When I down new bosses in 10 man (Al'akir we did first on 10 for example) it does not feel the same.
Also I agree with the part about not wanting to pick which people to take. We have around 22 raiders I can completely count on. I don't want to cut down people we bring to 10-14.
zmalmquist Jun 17th 2011 5:07PM
You missed the big point that I am curious about. How much fail can you have in 25 man versus 10 man?
Take cho'gal. 10 players 358+ gear. 1 death you can usually recover with your 1 brez. Beyond that you have to go into phase 2 with everyone less than 20 corrupted blood.
My impression from a 10 man raider is you have to have a higher level of perfection from your players. But I don't raid 25 man, so how much fail can you have in a 25 man?
Udain Jun 17th 2011 5:17PM
This is a first for me - but frankly this issue really gets under the skin. 10 man raiding has killed many many 25 man raiding guilds and has pushed raiding down to a "big 5 man " party feel....
I dont care about the mechanics issue and whether a raid is "harder" in 10 man, I do care about the fact that 10 mans are murdering guilds.
A guild is a collection of players - forming a community - raiding - having fun. Facts are the equalisation of raid loot has broken the back of larger guilds and the entropy is spreading, we are the only serious 25 man raiding guild alliance left on our server - yes the ONLY one - this is ridiculous.
Blizzard could have at least kept achievements seperate - they wouldnt even do that. Frankly they may as well get rid of 25 man raiding as well and have done with it.
This head long focus on making "content" accessible but not rewarding the tougher to organise large guilds will result in the end of this game sooner or later as guilds continue to fragment - serious players arent interested in 10 mans - 10 man content is played by players that want an easy win, easy loot and little skill period. As quality players continue to burnout and drift away the "nursery" of new players - large guilds will die - 25 man raiding allows guilds more leeway in larger raid teams - hence more players gain experience and develop as players - 10 mans are frankly too small social groups and cannot deliver.
Will I be playing 10 mans - Nope - will I leave wow if 25 mans go - yep - because the challenge and more importantly the FUN will finally be gone...
Sad priest :-(
nonregularway Jun 17th 2011 6:22PM
I respect your opinion. I empathize that the Cataclysm raid changes seemed to drive away the 25-man guilds. As someone who has experienced guild struggles, and a guild of any size can struggle, I can only guess that you and your guild are working hard to remain together and raid in the group size that you prefer.
But as a 10-man raider I have to say that this:
"...serious players aren't interested in 10 mans - 10 man content is played by players that want an easy win, easy loot and little skill period."
is NOT why my guild raids.
I don't want to start a discussion on if one group size is more difficult than the other but I do want to say that my 10-man raiding team does not just waltz into a raid with complete disregard for talent specs, gear, gems, enchants, flask and food buffs, raid composition, and encounter strategy and expect epics to be handed to us. We expect the best from ourselves and each other in, I'm guessing, the same way that you expect the best from yourself and the 24 other people on your team.
I agree with your point that if less 25-man guilds are raiding this creates less opportunities for players to raid, gain experience, and develop as players. It's not that there is no turnover for 10-man teams but it does happen on a much smaller basis.
I worry that in the WoW community this 10-man vs. 25-man raiding discussion is creating a divide the way the "casual" vs. "hardcore" discussion does. While any discussion is healthy there is no reason to paint stereotypes over the side that you don't belong to. Each side has their own concerns, their own problems, and their own benefits. Just as we should not generalize that all "casual" players are lazy n00bs wanting epics for 30 minutes of game play we also should not generalize that all 10-man raiders are lazy n00bs, probably in a PUG, wanting epics despite their un-enchanted blues and complete lack of encounter knowledge.
"A guild is a collection of players - forming a community - raiding - having fun. "
This statement you made is true for a raiding guild of any size. Somewhere down the line I know that you and your 25-man team will be standing over the corpse of Deathwing with a feeling of great pride that you have all accomplished something amazing together. I hope you can understand why it will be just as amazing for me and the other 9 people on my team.
Tarragon Jun 17th 2011 6:26PM
What?
Saying that "serious players arent interested in 10 mans" is very, very wrong. I'm a serious player. I run a guild. I raid 3 nights a week. I'm almost up to 3 level 85s, including a paladin that I took from 1 to 82 in about 2 weeks, despite having a full-time job. My raid team downed Cho'gall for the first time after about 5 attempts.
Almost every one of the serious players in my guild prefers 10 mans. We like them because we like having actual responsibility, instead of only having about 4/25 people do work and everyone else is essentially replaceable.
The reason 25 mans died is because the only people that actually like doing them are the ones who are the dead weight and would never be successful in a 10 man raid. Unfortunately for those players, none of them have the competency or motivation to organize their own 25, and they aren't being carried by the good players who just want better gear, like they were in Wrath.
silentk Jun 17th 2011 7:01PM
@Tarragon
Yes. Absolutely yes.
There are still many successful 25 man guilds... but as far as my observation has allowed, the 25 man guilds that disintegrated were the mediocre ones that allowed 5-8 players on roster to have a spot based on "seniority" or "association", and not skill.
Highly progressed 25 man guilds (7+ Heroic bosses) can't afford to carry players until the content is on farm. 10 man guilds in the same progression have an even harder time carrying a player with bad performance.
"Casual" players - make sure your gear is enchanted and you study your class and the fight for a couple minutes a week. Lazy players get out. I would love to see more successful guilds out there clearing content.
rigorm Jun 19th 2011 2:02PM
@Tarragon
Is this some sort of trolling? I've cleared the entire content, including Sinestra and Al'akir, since March. I think 10m is a silly format that can barely provide me entertainment. Am I in for easy epics, am I not good enough for 10s? Our altraid (10 man, by the way, without special comp or handpicking players, just whoever is available) cleared 8/13 in 3 hours or so without breaking much sweat, and that is with some players being in 353~ gear.
The amount of good 10m guilds is abyssal. Most of you have no idea what you are talking about because your knowledge is limited to what happens after X waves of nerfs and reaching certain bosses after Y months of farming gear from previous ones. You have guilds in #10 world, in the 10m format, that raid 2-3 days/week, that should give you a good indicator of how much "dedication" goes around there.
Matter of fact is, the core of players who are actually above the wave in this game still raid 25. Plenty of people rushed to the 10m format thinking it's gonna be a chicken with golden eggs and when they discovered that the times of wrath triviality are long gone and the format's difficulty has been increased, they started crying.
Except the part regarding the future of 25m guilds (which is, by the way, grim, seeing how there are almost no new 25m guilds forming and the old ones are dying left and right - fact triggered by 10s also further reducing the already small recruitment pool available), Tyler is pretty much spot on in his post.
Saruya Jun 17th 2011 5:16PM
Catacysm?
Send out a search party for the missing L! :P
thedoctor2031 Jun 17th 2011 5:20PM
I think people do 25 man raids because when people have 40 plus people who want to raid it is easier to do 25 mans than create 3 or more 10 mans. The new guild I just joined runs 2 25 man groups with one occasionally dipping into 10 man if they don't have enough people. Also heroic 25 mans seem to be much less stressful and challenging than heroic 10 mans.
Celeane Jun 17th 2011 5:28PM
You missed a key point-where do people go for whom the new 10 man difficulty isn't appropriate? There's a massive hole for us, we either level alts, or we grow to hate the game one overtuned-for-us encounter at a time.
Kuro Jun 17th 2011 5:36PM
The problem is being addressed in 4.2 -- you go to the previous tier.
Celeane Jun 17th 2011 6:04PM
Why would I do that tier all over again?
Tarragon Jun 17th 2011 7:02PM
Celeane,
You just said the current (soon to be previous) tier was overtuned for you. So you presumably didn't do it. Once 4.2 comes out, 4.0 will be nerfed, and you can do it.
But with your reply, you insinuate that you've already done the current content, in which case you go do Firelands because it obviously wasn't THAT overtuned, considering you beat it.
Dave Jun 17th 2011 5:52PM
Coming from a hard core and casual raiding guilds, I find 25 man much easier then 10 man raids for progression. Reason, loot. You gear up much faster than 10 man guilds. I have ran antramedes (10man) since cata release on my hunter and still no bow. Whereas my warrior has every piece drop in my 25 man. As far as solo healing, I would love to see Nef, Alkir, or Chogall solo healed.
Tyler Caraway Jun 17th 2011 9:45PM
Nef and Al'akir would be difficult purely due to logistics. Cho'gall nearly not as bad, but you have the issue of Worship RNG. With a highly skilled group, you could probably pull it off.
Although, solo heal is probably a bit off. I don't think any of them would be possible, save Atramedes and possibly Maloriak, without a shadow priest in the raid -- which, if your second healer is a priest, is kind of on hand in a sense.
Really though, I don't think there's that big of a disparity between 10 and 25 normal modes in terms of healing. Keep in mind that guilds were doing this content in mostly blues, so doing it with heroic raiding gear is rather trivial.
The only reason that 10-man raids are probably going to be easier to downsize the numbers of healers is purely due to the logistics of the raid style. It's far easier to avoid splash damage and chain damage effects in that raid setting than in 25. Couple that with reduced overall ability damage and it significantly reduces raid damage.
Further, while each player has more individual responsibility in a 10-man raid, there's also a lower risk of emergency situations occurring on multiple people at once. For example, on twin dragons, it's highly unlikely you'll run into an instance where three people are caught in a bad breath situation, while that's far more plausible in 25. (Although, realistically, it shouldn't be happening to anyone.)
The other side of it is that there's far more of a dramatic effect by cutting out a single healer in 10-man instead of 25. Having an extra DPS in 10's accounts for far more than having an extra in 25's. Half of being able to solo heal any content isn't the raw healing output of the healer, but the ridiculous DPS output of the raid.
yocraigst Jun 17th 2011 6:12PM
I believe the combined raid lockout has killed 25-man, guild-run pugs. I referring to a guild that can only produce 15-20 players and so pugged the rest. These "casual" guilds are now running 10-man only.
I learned how to raid as a pug. I miss it.
thebitterfig Jun 17th 2011 6:24PM
My thought, as always, is this. There ought to be some very marginal reward for doing 25m rather than 10m. 10s have the added difficulty about being more sensitive to individual deaths,* but 25 mechanics are typically tuned slightly harder. It is also perfectly clear that the Wrath way, with 25m loot being a full 13-ilvl tier above 10m was far too much. In Cataclysm, an increase of 13 ilvls increases the stats on the item about 13%. What I'd like to see would be, say, a 2 ilvl difference between 25 and 10m, about 2% more stats from gear. Maybe I'm stuck in a pre-cata mindset, but I think the thinnest separation in gear would be a good idea.
*From my experience, the mistakes which cause death are more common in 25m, with the increased frequency of deaths. Those situations which cause a single death in 10m can easily lead to 3 in 25m.
Skinless Jun 17th 2011 7:24PM
A point I haven't seen mentioned is that DPS players outnumber tanks and heals by a fair margin. There are 5-6 DPS spots in a 10man, some of whom need to be hybrid while there are 17 DPS spots in a 25man and many of them can be pure DPS classes.
When we were running 10man as a guild I would be on the bench at least 1 out of our 3 raid nights. Now that we're running 25's only the latecomers sit on standby.
If we hadn't switched to 25s I probably would have had to gear up and move on to a guild where I could get a spot. The coordination is harder and we frequently have to pug out some spots but I'm grateful the raid leader was willing to go this way to keep everyone in the game.
Balgus Jun 17th 2011 8:16PM
Not sure if anyone else has mentioned this because I havent read all teh comments, but don't forget 25 man also get more buffs and more battle rezzes.
Trisnic Jun 17th 2011 8:18PM
The main thing I'm going to disagree with in this article is that 25 man raiding guilds are being created all the time. From my experience this is not happening. On my server for example every 25 man guild that exists today has existed since June 2010 at the very latest. Many, many 10 man guilds have tried to expand to 25 man and they have all failed. Two guilds that started Cata as 25 man guilds have become 10 man guilds and another 25 man guild dissolved to merge with a different 25 man guild.
It is far tougher to run a 25 man raid and even tougher still to form one. These types of guilds do get formed from time to time but it's the exception rather than the rule.
At times I've considered narrowing our guild to a 10 man force because I know we could progress further even though I don't like the format as much. Hell we tried it for the first time last week, our 25 man took one week off before Firelands but 10 players still wanted to raid. With those 10 we downed a new heroic boss we had been working on for awhile in addition to killing the ones we've downed in 25 in record speed and this is with a group who had never run 10 mans outside of Al'akir all throughout Cataclysm.
Sometimes the constant recruitment and screening for a 25 man raid is taxing but I do it because I really prefer this format. I would trust 20 at least of our raiders at least to stand on their own in a 10 man format. I do not want to divide people up when they enjoy each others company. At times we do carry a few but that is how it is. We have had to cut nice, friendly people from our 25 at times as well which was hard, but for whatever reason they were causing issues so they went.
Anyway that is my main concern. It will be interesting to look at wowprogress in a few months and see how many guilds are still raiding in a 25 man format. I am fortunate that my server still considers 25 man raiding to be serious and we have multiple highly progressed 25 man guilds that are very stable. We also have 10 mans that seem to fall apart every few months. I'm guessing that only a few of these 10 man guilds will exist come 4.3 although this format may become more stable as time goes on.