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6-17-2011 @ 5:17PM
This is a first for me - but frankly this issue really gets under the skin. 10 man raiding has killed many many 25 man raiding guilds and has pushed raiding down to a "big 5 man " party feel....I dont care about the mechanics issue and whether a raid is "harder" in 10 man, I do care about the fact that 10 mans are murdering guilds.A guild is a collection of players - forming a community - raiding - having fun. Facts are the equalisation of raid loot has broken the back of larger guilds and the entropy is spreading, we are the only serious 25 man raiding guild alliance left on our server - yes the ONLY one - this is ridiculous.Blizzard could have at least kept achievements seperate - they wouldnt even do that. Frankly they may as well get rid of 25 man raiding as well and have done with it.This head long focus on making "content" accessible but not rewarding the tougher to organise large guilds will result in the end of this game sooner or later as guilds continue to fragment - serious players arent interested in 10 mans - 10 man content is played by players that want an easy win, easy loot and little skill period. As quality players continue to burnout and drift away the "nursery" of new players - large guilds will die - 25 man raiding allows guilds more leeway in larger raid teams - hence more players gain experience and develop as players - 10 mans are frankly too small social groups and cannot deliver.Will I be playing 10 mans - Nope - will I leave wow if 25 mans go - yep - because the challenge and more importantly the FUN will finally be gone...Sad priest :-(
6-17-2011 @ 6:22PM
I respect your opinion. I empathize that the Cataclysm raid changes seemed to drive away the 25-man guilds. As someone who has experienced guild struggles, and a guild of any size can struggle, I can only guess that you and your guild are working hard to remain together and raid in the group size that you prefer.But as a 10-man raider I have to say that this: "...serious players aren't interested in 10 mans - 10 man content is played by players that want an easy win, easy loot and little skill period."is NOT why my guild raids.I don't want to start a discussion on if one group size is more difficult than the other but I do want to say that my 10-man raiding team does not just waltz into a raid with complete disregard for talent specs, gear, gems, enchants, flask and food buffs, raid composition, and encounter strategy and expect epics to be handed to us. We expect the best from ourselves and each other in, I'm guessing, the same way that you expect the best from yourself and the 24 other people on your team.I agree with your point that if less 25-man guilds are raiding this creates less opportunities for players to raid, gain experience, and develop as players. It's not that there is no turnover for 10-man teams but it does happen on a much smaller basis.I worry that in the WoW community this 10-man vs. 25-man raiding discussion is creating a divide the way the "casual" vs. "hardcore" discussion does. While any discussion is healthy there is no reason to paint stereotypes over the side that you don't belong to. Each side has their own concerns, their own problems, and their own benefits. Just as we should not generalize that all "casual" players are lazy n00bs wanting epics for 30 minutes of game play we also should not generalize that all 10-man raiders are lazy n00bs, probably in a PUG, wanting epics despite their un-enchanted blues and complete lack of encounter knowledge."A guild is a collection of players - forming a community - raiding - having fun. "This statement you made is true for a raiding guild of any size. Somewhere down the line I know that you and your 25-man team will be standing over the corpse of Deathwing with a feeling of great pride that you have all accomplished something amazing together. I hope you can understand why it will be just as amazing for me and the other 9 people on my team.
6-17-2011 @ 6:26PM
What?Saying that "serious players arent interested in 10 mans" is very, very wrong. I'm a serious player. I run a guild. I raid 3 nights a week. I'm almost up to 3 level 85s, including a paladin that I took from 1 to 82 in about 2 weeks, despite having a full-time job. My raid team downed Cho'gall for the first time after about 5 attempts.Almost every one of the serious players in my guild prefers 10 mans. We like them because we like having actual responsibility, instead of only having about 4/25 people do work and everyone else is essentially replaceable.The reason 25 mans died is because the only people that actually like doing them are the ones who are the dead weight and would never be successful in a 10 man raid. Unfortunately for those players, none of them have the competency or motivation to organize their own 25, and they aren't being carried by the good players who just want better gear, like they were in Wrath.
6-17-2011 @ 7:01PM
@TarragonYes. Absolutely yes.There are still many successful 25 man guilds... but as far as my observation has allowed, the 25 man guilds that disintegrated were the mediocre ones that allowed 5-8 players on roster to have a spot based on "seniority" or "association", and not skill.Highly progressed 25 man guilds (7+ Heroic bosses) can't afford to carry players until the content is on farm. 10 man guilds in the same progression have an even harder time carrying a player with bad performance."Casual" players - make sure your gear is enchanted and you study your class and the fight for a couple minutes a week. Lazy players get out. I would love to see more successful guilds out there clearing content.
6-19-2011 @ 2:02PM
@Tarragon Is this some sort of trolling? I've cleared the entire content, including Sinestra and Al'akir, since March. I think 10m is a silly format that can barely provide me entertainment. Am I in for easy epics, am I not good enough for 10s? Our altraid (10 man, by the way, without special comp or handpicking players, just whoever is available) cleared 8/13 in 3 hours or so without breaking much sweat, and that is with some players being in 353~ gear. The amount of good 10m guilds is abyssal. Most of you have no idea what you are talking about because your knowledge is limited to what happens after X waves of nerfs and reaching certain bosses after Y months of farming gear from previous ones. You have guilds in #10 world, in the 10m format, that raid 2-3 days/week, that should give you a good indicator of how much "dedication" goes around there.Matter of fact is, the core of players who are actually above the wave in this game still raid 25. Plenty of people rushed to the 10m format thinking it's gonna be a chicken with golden eggs and when they discovered that the times of wrath triviality are long gone and the format's difficulty has been increased, they started crying. Except the part regarding the future of 25m guilds (which is, by the way, grim, seeing how there are almost no new 25m guilds forming and the old ones are dying left and right - fact triggered by 10s also further reducing the already small recruitment pool available), Tyler is pretty much spot on in his post.
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