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6-23-2011 @ 3:12PM
1: it's not the journal and knowledge of tactics that makes top guilds good. 2: they can say "we used to learn the tactics by ourselves but now Blizzard will provide it to everyone" but usually they kill these bosses on the PTR, while most people don't. The result of that is: A - they already know the tactics when a boss comes live; B - the tactics are already on wowpedia when the boss comes live so everyone can see it. Bottom line: it's not the knowledge of tactics that makes top guilds good.End of storyPS. There are normal people in Paragon, not like Kungen and the other whiny jackasses, so I doubt that specifically Paragon whined about this.
6-23-2011 @ 3:14PM
The complaints of the high end raiders are valid. This is a huge boost for some of the 10-50 guilds that are great with execution, but lack the creativity of the higher end guilds that consistantly push high level content. For those players, it essentially removes a decent chunk of the metagame for them. However, I do think that adding the DJ is a great move for the majority of the player base. A good compromise would be set up the DJ so that it only unlocks the page for a boss when a guild on the server downs the boss. That way it's more like an actual journal, rather than some magic book that people consult for advice.
6-23-2011 @ 3:24PM
Won't the Dungeon Journal "kill Wow"?For the eleventy eleventh time?
6-23-2011 @ 3:40PM
It is simply AMAZING to me that people would complain about this. After all, what is one of the first things elitist jerks (people, not the website) use to exclude players. "know the fights" and whats the first thing people ask newcomers in raids to do "go hit tankspot and research the fight".So now players can do that in game. What is the problem......oh yeah. The same problem as making good gear not impossible to get. A small minority needs this game to feel like they are better than others or their life isn't complete.Glad that Blizzard realizes that the more accessable the game is, the more money they make, and that for every "elite" that /ragequits, they replace them with a hundred 'casuals'.
6-23-2011 @ 4:20PM
@DarkseidThere's a small subset of raiders, essentially just the guilds on the front page of wowprogress, for whom there are no guides written, because they are the ones who write the guides. This is blizz not only taking away the need for them to write guides, which they enjoy, but it also takes away the opportunity for them to see these encounters without such assistance. And before you say "They don't HAVE to use the DJ!" Yes, they do. Upper echelon raiding is a bloodthirsty, machiavelian realm that most people who frequent this site have no clue of the specifics of. Exodus and Ensidia exploited bosses for world firsts. Premonition poached members from other guilds to unlock ICC heroic the first week. Stars runs a roster of over 100 raiders to pick and choose from. Premonition stacks any alts they can find, be it 11 feral druids, or a half dozen holy pallys, or swapping out their main tank for a DK in blues if it make the fight easier. When they're in progression mode, anything that can give them an edge in the race will be used. Because if they don't, the guild behind them will.@EldoronYou doubt that it's high end guilds like paragon complaining?Here's an EU thread complaining about the DJ. http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2098122483Let's look at the first ten posts of people complaining.1: Paragon World #12: Inner Sanctum World #243: For the Horde World #44: Apex World #175: Storm Legion Unranked6: Paragon World #17: Paragon World #18: Flying Shrimp World #30359: Ensidia World #310: Paragon World #1Multiple members of Paragon complaining, along with many other top tier guilds.Here's the North American thread.http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2548994977Pretty much the whole threat is various members of Premonition, the world #7, US#2 guild, including Xav, their GM, complaining about the DJ.We're not talking about random trolls trying to keep the casuals down. These are respected raiders from the best guilds in the world voicing their concerns about how this change will affect their gameplay. Their concerns are legitimate, even if they don't affect you.
6-23-2011 @ 4:43PM
People who whine about blizzard catering to casuals and bads are normally "bads" themselves, they are the type of person who needs to feel superior to others to feel adequate in themselves. Ensidia/Paragon/Vodka or whoever is top of the raiding ladder atm does not feel even a tiny bit threatened by this, someone who is afraid of losing the advantage they have by having others access the info they get from wowpedia or wowhead is somoene who is not very good at this game.
6-23-2011 @ 5:12PM
Now Now, guys don't get upset, you have to remember this is the same community that complained about the patch that gave us the ability to lock our action bars.
6-23-2011 @ 6:48PM
Exactly!! Why are those people complaining now? When a player enters a PUG group who has never been in that instance, those same people say "please drop group and get on youtube or look up that fight so you know what to do before you come back." ....... kids these days....
6-23-2011 @ 5:57PM
DragonFireKai, there are two vital problems with your argument:1) Dungeon Journal doesn't tell you how to win. Guides will still need to be written/recorded, and world first guilds will still need to cut their teeth for everybody else's sake.2) Boss abilities aren't "discovered" by world first guilds. They're discovered by MMO-Champion literally within hours of a PTR build going live.The Dungeon Journal is only slightly more informative than the source of info world first guilds *already use* before stepping into a fight. In conclusion, all this worrying is bullshit.
6-23-2011 @ 6:14PM
The worst example I've seen so far was brought up by DragonFireKai, where the DJ says that players clustering during Phase 4 of Heroic Ragnaros triggers a Magma Geyser. However, this is stated *in the tooltip*:http://ptr.wowhead.com/spell=100822/magma-geyser
6-23-2011 @ 6:23PM
imho the best way to deal with the complaint is to not add the info of ptr bosses, that way top guilds can figure new fights for themselves, and add the info on the live realms so "casuals" can get the info without having to search for it online.
6-23-2011 @ 7:44PM
Honestly, if they really don't want the proper catalog of what the bosses have to offer, coming straight from the devs, then they can bitch and moan in the corner. I, for one, and my entire guild, will be enjoying the extra (and proper) source of information.Blizz just can't make a single feature without a good chunk of squawkers, and while I won't deny that I've done my share of QQs to other changes.... This is literally crying because Blizzard is handing out free candy.They're MY candy now.
6-23-2011 @ 11:46PM
I have a question.When are people going to realize a list of abilities does not equate to "tank him in this spot, or use x number tanks, or x number healers, or put only ranged on this add, or Interrupt this ability (unless it tells you which are or are not interrupt-able in the first place)"?This isn't a map with a play by play "how to" of the fight. This is the same ability list that's on wowhead ptr before there's even a strat guide out for the fight. You can get this same list from mmo-champ datamining.It still doesn't tell you how to execute the fight.This change doesn't effect shit for the top guilds. If they're electing to not read datamined abilities off websites then they can elect to not read this. If they're pissed other guilds will have a better chance (which how can they, if this is the same data found everyone else on the internet already) then too bad. What is this, "waaaaah other guilds might be able to catch up to us!"? Really now..
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