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All of the latest Mists of Pandaria newsOfficers' Quarters: The strategy behind casual motivation
by Scott Andrews 
Jun 27th 2011 at 3:00PM
A guild's raiding suffers most when your players feel entitled to rewards without making the effort to earn them. Part of what makes leading a hardcore raiding guild easier in some respects than leading a casual raiding guild is that your players are always motivated to do their best to succeed. This week, an officer asks how she can motivate her casual raiders to meet some basic requirements and get a second team up and running.
Hi Scott,
We run a small casual raiding guild on a server that isn't very progressed. We currently have one successful 10-man team, and have been trying to get a second one off the ground since February. We have some lenient requirements for raiders to pass: they must be willing to listen on Vent, have DBM installed, be appropriately gemmed, enchanted and glyphed, and as of 4.1, have an ilevel of 346. The raiders in the current 10-man team had no problem with this at all, but the people who would comprise the second team, and complain about wanting to raid, have put in very little effort towards actually raiding. At the time of writing this, it's June -- we have endured 4 months of trying to get this team off the ground, 4 months of complaining, and 4 months of trying to help these people get a raid happening, to no avail.
We have tried recruiting but have been having a high turnover of people who HAVE put in the effort and found themselves without a team; they get frustrated and start looking elsewhere, and I really don't blame them. Meanwhile, the lazy members remain and continue to complain, but do nothing to progress themselves towards actually raiding, no matter how often we remind them. You can't walk into Blackwing Descent with an ilevel of 328, no enchants and only two glyphs -- these people don't seem to understand that! One member even told us he was "far too busy and important" irl to have time to watch a boss fight on Youtube, despite being fairly active and often online.Hi, Frustrated. Boy, this is one of the most annoying parts of casual raiding, and I don't blame you for feeling that way. One question for you: Did you put these requirements in writing? Are they listed on your website somewhere? Such requirements never feel quite tangible enough if
It feels like all of these people want something for nothing -- they want to raid but they don't want to put the effort in to learn any of the fights themselves or meet the requirements we've set out. And when they're frustrated at not raiding, it's the guild leadership they look to for blame. I'm completely at a loss for what to do here; the old adage of "you can lead a horse to water but can't make it drink" really comes to mind. Simply giving up and canceling the second team isn't the answer, because then it punishes the people who HAVE been putting in the effort. Everyone (including the officers) is incredibly frustrated at this situation -- it seems like no matter how many times we remind them to put in the effort, they assume that raiding will be like it was in Wrath.
Any advice you have on this would be great,
Frustrated
they're merely understood.
The power of the written word
As I mentioned last week, writing down your policies is an incredibly helpful way to prevent drama and head off complaints. By formalizing your requirements in writing, you give your members a checklist of things to do. It won't get everyone to do it, but at least you can point to it when people want to raid before they've met these standards. The written requirements would also serve notice to people who are looking to join that they must do these things if they want to raid with your guild.
I would also suggest keeping a public list of players who are "approved" for raiding, so you have a black-and-white system for determining who gets invites and who doesn't. Ask players to request an evaluation for the list once they've met all the requirements and feel that they are ready.
Have an officer or a class/role leader look at their armory and give them feedback. It's a great opportunity for some constructive criticism before the player sets foot in a raid. Then the evaluator can either put them on the list or tell them what they still need to do to qualify.
You could even go a step further and post a list of required roles for this second team. Post the people who qualify in the appropriate spots and leave blanks for the spots no one can fill yet.
You'd be surprised how something so simple can serve as a kick in the pants for people to get things done. Seeing others on a list that they're not on is a stark reminder of their own laziness. Your requirements are so simple and reasonable that hopefully it shouldn't take much more than that to get people to meet them -- if they truly want to raid.
Consider other solutions
Until you get this second team off the ground, it might be a good idea to rotate into your first team some of the players who have been patiently waiting for the second. When patch 4.2 goes live, some of your first-team players will probably want to skip out on farm runs of tier 11 instances anyway.
If every player who qualifies gets a chance to raid, it could serve as more motivation to people who aren't yet approved. I imagine it may be hard to feel motivated when you know you'll just be sitting around waiting for everyone else to catch up.
In all honesty, depending on how many players you have that qualify to raid outside the first team, you may be better off in the long run working out a rotation and not bothering with a second team at all. Recruiting is very difficult right now. If you have only two to three extra raiders, then it's probably not worth building an entire team out of that until you manage to recruit more people.
Don't give in
As for the guy who says he's too "busy and important" to watch a 5-minute video -- wow. What a lame excuse! He has hours and hours to raid, but not an extra few minutes to prepare to raid well? I don't buy it.
Yes, it's casual raiding, but the fact that he thinks his time is more valuable than others' is the exact opposite attitude that you want to see in your raiders. That is one member who should never see the inside of a raid instance until he changes his attitude.
Maybe once the tier 11 nerfs hit with 4.2, your second-team players may see a surge in activity to get prepared and jump in. Don't count on it, however. And don't let them blame you for the lack of additional raiding, either. Make it clear exactly who is preventing these raids from happening -- themselves.
Whatever you do, stick to your guns and don't lower your standards. Outside of Vent and ilevel, your requirements are really just the minimum anyone should do when they're playing group PVE content in any form. It goes beyond smart play to a matter of common courtesy. The moment you give in to the laziness of your players, you'll put your guild on a slippery slope toward failure.
/salute
Recently, Officers' Quarters has examined how strong new leadership can create a guild turnaround, the pitfalls of promising more than you can deliver, and lessons learned from Scott's own guild demise. Send your own guild-related questions and suggestions to scott@wowinsider.com.
Filed under: Officers' Quarters (Guild Leadership)
Reader Comments (Page 2 of 3)
Priestess Jun 27th 2011 6:04PM
@Mortenebra
I wouldn't say you're a clique. I've dealt with that too. At least for me, the whiner was someone who was lonely and annoyed IRL and wanted people to specifically go out of their way to invite him, even beg him, to join them so he could get whatever it was he wanted from whatever it was he finally condescended to do with you, and so he would feel important and subject all of you to his pointless or demeaning babble for the rest of the experience. If you didn't, he'd whine about you and your mother and your uncle to anyone else who would listen when your back was turned. I learned a little late you should just tell those people "Stop or leave". When all's said and done, everyone but them will thank you for it later, especially yourself when you don't have to deal with it. The people you're running with are team players, and he is not. Having him join you will not change that, and having him continue to undermine the cohesive and friendly qualities in your guild will get you less than the one team you've currently got.
Sally Bowls Jun 27th 2011 4:00PM
I can only offer more sympathy than helpful suggestions.
After you get over this hurdle, you get to my bete noir, attendance. I heard a definition on TB about hardcore is someone who is willing to arrange their RL to benefit their game. And casuals are not. ( Which of course is fine; people should choose their commitment to any hobby based upon costs($/time) and enjoyment. )
It was so frustrating to get 12 people to show up but not have the proper number of tanks or healers. Even more so is when the next week you have an excess of whatever cancelled the previous week. Or to realize you have not run the same ten people for more than an hour this month.
You can do a realm first progression much simpler since people will sign up on a calendar and make their commitments. You are either going to have to get your new team to commit to the schedule (tbh unlikely considering these issues) or you are going to need a significantly larger team in the hopes the RNG has the right players on.
SymbolSix Jun 27th 2011 4:28PM
IMHO, the problem here is that we, as a playerbase, have forgotten that there's a difference between "casual" and "bad." My main has a three day a week raid, and I participate in a weekly alt run, so I can't say I'm a casual, anymore, but what I *can* say is that raiders absolutely recognize the difference between casuals and bads.
A casual player doesn't have much gold, doesn't sign up for main raids, and may not be aware of subtleties like "tanks lose avoidance when they're knocked down, stunned, or casting" and "For hunters [and other classes?] the value of haste depends on how much haste you already have." However, a casual player is still a decent human being, and will recognize and value the advice of other players, and will respect the effort (and time!) that other players dedicate to the game. The alt run I manage has a couple raider alts, and a couple casual mains (and pugs, each week, oh lord the pugs), and the casuals do *just fine* because they aren't *self centered jacknapes with entitlement issues.*
Bads, in comparison, may be bad at the game, but I think that on a deeper level they are actually bad people. Bads are the type of person that either doesn't recognize that their sloppiness costs other people time and energy, or recognizes it and doesn't care. If someone makes it to level 85, they have enough gold to buy glyphs, whether they leveled by questing, running dungeons, or *pacifist herb farming.* Anyway who queues for a heroic (much less asks for a raid spot) has either failed to recognize the importance of glyphs, or expects other people to carry him (or her). In the former case, they've paid so little attention to the game that they hurt the rest of us just by joining us in a cooperative effort, and in the latter, they're a bad person from first principles.
Bads exists as a consequence of the GIFT ( http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/3/19/ ), and I think that we confuse the difference between bads and casuals partly because the 1-85 game is easier these days (anyone remember trying to do Zul'Farrak as a group of 44s? Man, I'll never forget The Steps and Zul'Farrak), and partly because the popularity of WoW means that there are lots and lots of both bads and casuals running around, and when you meet someone in the impersonal setting of RDF, it can be hard to tell the difference (key identifying phrases for casuals are "I'm sorry" and "Thank you").
Regarding this particular situation, I'd recommend a tactic my guild has used to some effect: Create a "Raider" rank for people who raid regularly, a "Raid Ready" rank for the list described by Scott, and a "Social" rank for people who aren't interested or are not prepared for raiding.
Utakata Jun 27th 2011 4:40PM
I will agree it's a pain that so much work has to be done on gearing a character for raiding and such instead of relying on skill. But until Blizz changes it's current system to more user friendly one that relies on skill, players have to deal with the current system they've got if they wish to advance. I know this sucks for many, but them are the breaks.
SymbolSix Jun 27th 2011 5:08PM
What should Blizz do to make the game more "user friendly?" Have players learn glyphs automatically, instead of having to buy them? Take out enchants, since they're not really part of the PvE or PvP experience, and just extraneous? Take out leveling?
I respect the preference for a more streamlined play experience, but at its core, WoW is about having a character, and having that character be more powerful as time goes on (this even applies to the auctioneer game, if you're willing to concede "X many crafting toons" as "More power" for a player), and running content with them.
If you take out all the content that doesn't directly involve delving into dungeons and slaying dragons, you no longer have WoW, you have DotA. Maybe you also have ten player coop Call of Duty; I dunno. I'm not saying necessarily that that would be a bad game, but that's not the game you paid for when you bought Warcraft, and it's insulting when you try to play it while the rest of us and gearing for progression.
Utakata Jun 27th 2011 6:41PM
You seemed to be threatened by what I said, SymbolSix. I am not sure why. But the hyperbole is most becoming...so I am not going to entertain it. And to leave to you to think whatever you want to think about it.
But rather to address what is meant by skill versus gear. I will agree there is some skill involved in perfecting a character so it's most effective in gearing appropriately, but not as near as learning the fight to take down a boss or complete an instance. I personnaly feel the tail is wagging the dog in Blizz making gear aquirement needlessly complicated in this regard. It shouldn't be. But instead focusing on end game content by making it more dynamic, interesting and rewarding. I guess this case of some of us wanting the game to be progressive and not just progression oriented.
With that...as for insulting you for playing this game. You no longer need to worry about that, I am not planning to play it much longer. /shrug
Astoreth Jun 27th 2011 7:30PM
This comment is fascinating to me because I really feel like this current tier *does* put a lot of emphasis on skill and personal responsibility rather than gear. Most of the people I've heard complaining about Cata being too hard *have been* complaining about the skill requirements, not the gear. You can have the best gear available but if you don't execute the fight properly, down you go... which is a change from Wrath, where it seemed if you had awesome enough gear you *could* just brute-force a lot of encounters.
This isn't to say that you can (or should be able to) rock up in Cata quest greens and "skill" your way through BoT. But it doesn't take THAT much effort to kit yourself out in Heroic/crafted gear of the appropriate level, and gem & enchant in a not-forehead-slappingly-stupid fashion. (Heck, if you don't want to do the research yourself, a lot of JCs & Enchanters will be able to tell you what their other customers buy and you can take their recommendations!) There is a level of dedication involved here, in that you have to be willing to invest some time and effort into raiding outside of the actual raid times... but I kinda like knowing that the people I'm raiding with are at least serious enough about what they're doing to make that minimum commitment. I don't think that necessarily needs to change.
(By way of reference: I consider myself casual. Full time job, three kids, raiding six hours a week. WoW is not my life.)
Utakata Jun 27th 2011 11:01PM
I don't think my comment fasinates you whatsoever Astoreth...simply because you disagree with it...
...but with all due respect, it's a bit credulous to presume everyone is at the same skill level as you. I don't know personally many players who can hold down a full time job, juggling 3 children whilst raiding 6 hours a week. Perhaps you can do it all standing on your head while spitting nickles singing the hokey pokey. Not everyone is like that. Just saying.
However I disagree, I do not find how the gear system works now emphasises skill over gear (which in itself seems an oxymoron I will add), but the opposite. I did not find this in Wrath and less now in Cata. And each expansion the emphasis on gear and it's peripherals is more so. Just look what they did with Hit Rating as an example for this expansion.
That being said though, did you not understand the gist of my original comment that agrees with the complaint of letter? Yes, despite I disagree with the current gearing system, doesn't give anyone any excuse who still wants to raid to slack off in gear preparation. They need deal with it and hope Blizz comes out with a better system as I said...or find another game.
Astoreth Jun 28th 2011 2:28AM
Wait, I can't find your comment interesting because it's something I haven't heard before? How does that work? I was being genuine and attempting to be non-threatening; I'm sorry you seem to have interpreted my personal experience and expressions of opinion as insults. That's not how they were intended.
What did they do with hit rating? Hit cap is still 8% for melee, 17% for spellcasters, like it has been for a while. (I can't say forever; I'm a Wrath baby.) The raw *amount* required has gone up, but the amount provided on gear has gone up as well. You're still allocating the same fraction of your total stats to hit that you were all along.
I'm actually not certain what your original comment has to do with the OP, no. You speak of gear being an unfortunate obstacle, when the OP pretty clearly states that the problem is raider commitment. It's not that they have bad gear, it's that they're not motivated to take any personal responsibility for their raid prep -- they're not even enchanting the gear they *have*, or filling out their glyphs.
rice2007 Jun 27th 2011 4:41PM
If he doesn't want to put in the effort, /gkick. Or just keep him off the roster. It's been said a thousand times and I'll say it again, recruiting is hard. I know on my realm though, you are able to pug raids fairly easily. Use your roster to fill as many spots as you can and pug the rest, but do not give in to the laziness of your guildie.
Hanketsu Jun 27th 2011 4:45PM
The problem people in the guild are what are referred to as Morons & Slackers or M&S for short.
yes, this is taken from the Greedy Goblin blog and I feel his arguments are totally valid and describe the mentioned problem in the guild.
You're better off /gkick them all and move on and recruit some good people rather than have the M&S drag your guild down.
Steve Jun 27th 2011 5:14PM
We're in a similar spot...my guild has been struggling to fill 10m raids for the past couple months, where prior to that we were trying to build a second 10m raid group. Now, one of our healers has an issue where he thinks it's OK to ignore mechanics, because he's healing, and then jokes when he wipes the raid. We have one consistent tank, 2 consistent heals, and several consistent DPS...it's annoying and a little embarrassing having to pug 2-3 spots, and still be at 10/12 when we've been there for at least a month. And in every case, it's just because someone fails at mechanics, and then it turns into a downward spiral. One of our DPS has died almost every single week on the same boss fight, (the twins) because he doesn't do what he's supposed to do. And generally we still make it through the fight, but it's frustrating that we're basically carrying him, and that we can't kick him without being forced to try to recruit a replacement or just pug the spot every week.
Basically, my long rant = baddies are bad.
Arrohon Jun 27th 2011 7:33PM
Try to recruit some of the good pugs you've run with. You'll help fill out the roster and give that one dps less of an excuse to keep failing because he'll be easier to replace.
terph Jun 27th 2011 8:30PM
To add to the pug comment, make it easy for your good puggers to come back. My guild died so I'm pugging my raids until I find a good home. I've had a few re-invites saying "please come back next raid night, you're great!" But when I log in, ready with flasks and buff food and repaired gear, no one shows up. This has happened a few times now. :( Make calendar invites and keep them up to date on what is going on.
DayDreamer Jun 27th 2011 5:25PM
I understand reality doesn't bend at whim, but I don't see casual raiding as requiring that much.
I suggest guidance and flexibility.
They might need more than just a list of requirements from you, like some guidance on how to accomplish them, or perhaps a discount on gems and enchants. Perhaps demand some compensation in the form of useful materials or manpower support (for guild rep or automatic guild donations).
I personally found gemming and especially enchanting to be complicated.
If they need help, point them to wowpopular.com and the Elitist Jerks forum. Both have unique info to provide, although Elitist Jerks is a little more advanced.
I would not think watching a video is required. People learn in different ways. Some from video, diagrams, explanation from someone that can answer follow-up questions, some like to learn from experience, or combinations and gradients. (eg: experience could be two very different things, like what cements what they've been told, or it could be going in mostly blind to improvise with their combat/raid skills and likely wiping repeatedly.)
I find videos are rarely comprehensive, showing all modes, explaining what needs to be done from all player roles, or pointing out with diagrams what's happening in the video even if it's being explained, or ENUNCIATING and having proper mixer volumes. Even TankSpot isn't that good.
As far as encounters, the new dungeon journal system coming out in the patch should help. (although I'm not sure it beats a comprehensive but concise summary from an experienced player)
You might be investing the time of professional raiding players to their group, but if they make it hard or impossible to play cooperatively with them, there's not much you can do except step out.
I'd present it as being more about options instead of limitations or threats, although even if they protest you'll probably want an experienced eye to supervise and offer suggestions in their first one or two raids. Beyond that, anyone who wants to lead can lead. (Anyone who doesn't want to follow doesn't have to. It's just a matter of compatibility, regardless of which one of you is in either role.) Let them play undergeared or unstudied on encounters or on raid awareness or with sloppy rotations. Many of those things can be compensated for.
Priestess Jun 27th 2011 5:42PM
Now I'll pop down here and give some thoughts. Mr. Andrews gave excellent advice for a casual raiding guild! Just because you raid casually doesn't mean you have to interact casually. Write things down, this really is great. My guild nearly collapsed over raiding in BC, and we learned a hard lesson. First, we now have a website and an application. We don't ask anything about your character's gear, experience, etc. We want to know who *you* are. We joke among ourselves that we can fix gear, but we can’t fix stupid. If you are lazy and self-centered, either you won't do the app, or we'll have seen you coming before you caused us any trouble. Part of the app involves reading our written policies (which basically say you need to be nice to others and follow the guild rules regarding raiding if you raid). So if we ever do have problems down the road, we can say “You knew the rules, you broke them, here’s your last chance.” It’s very, very rare that we have to kick people.
Having that as a foundation makes it much easier to run raids. In Wrath we had certain requirements for raiding. People were competing heavily for raid spots, so we had a set-up for who ran when, how they were prioritized, etc. If there’s competition for that spot, people will work harder for it if they actually want it. If they want something for nothing, they will whine louder, and they need to be stopped, either by being told to, or being removed. I usually do first one, and if that doesn’t work, the second. No one whiner, no matter who it is (for us, the GM’s wife) should be allowed to make 9-24 (or more) people miserable. It’s a game and should be fun. Funsuckers should be stopped. Only problem is who gets to be the one to do the dirty work, lol. I hope your guild has someone who’s good at being nice about being mean.
But the shake-up that was Cata threw most of that out the window. Most of the people in our teams stopped raiding or left the game. Now over 60% of our guild membership (individual accounts) has been in it less than six months, and the majority of the rest have been in it several years. So we did not go in expecting what we had done before to work again.
Once we decided to start raiding this time, we did post to our website a list of requirements exactly the same as those in the letter, as well as spreading the news by word of mouth. At first we did have to cancel a few raids, but when we made it clear that we would continue to not raid until there were people who were properly prepared, a few more stepped up. Some people will get that you’re serious, and some won’t. It wasn’t enough though, so we took in a few pugs once or twice. That worked better. Several people who’d been being lazy realized that we’d ignore them, bring someone else, and not let them ruin our fun, so we got one team up.
The second team is proving to be harder, since we, as the writer, have the even less motivated people left. Sometimes we’ll take who we get and let them beat their heads, sometimes we cancel. What we’re trying at the moment is to get a *third* raid going instead, jumping right over the second group. We have some people who want to raid and can’t come at the time of the second raid group, so we are setting up a very late raid for them. We’re hopeful that this third slap in the face to the lazy, entitled people will either encourage them to step up or leave. If we continue to have loud objections when they have had three different “wake-up calls”, I will probably be the one asking them to shut up or pack up.
It’s a load of hard work and frustration for the officers, I grant us that. I’ve sat listening for long periods to more than one entitled annoying person go on and on about how they deserve this and they shouldn’t have to do this or that. When they run out of air or tire their fingers (and sometimes it’s an hour that I’m off doing something else before they do, lol), I note their pertinent points, tell them clearly why we are or aren’t doing what they demand, and tell them they can take it or leave it. Sometimes if possible I’ll give suggestions. Like the late group. Quite a few of them really wanted to raid and did the work, so they were rightly upset about not having a raid they could get into. So moving a few of the motivated people around and setting up a later time seems to be addressing that. Other things, like “I’ve been here so long I deserve to be in any group I want to be” gets a “No, you don’t, and you can end your time here or stop complaining. We value your involvement, but can’t allow you to upset everyone else because you’re choosing to be selfish. The choice is up to you.” And it is. They can choose to be a jerk, but that choice will net them a gkick once they’ve been warned and continue to do it.
And if you don’t like kicking people, or they are very longstanding members, be brave. I had to do a few of those kicks, and it sucks. Removing your GM’s best friend or someone’s family member isn’t my favorite part of the game. BUT! The payout for sticking to your guns with one bad egg is huge. People in our guild know that that fate awaits them if they make that kind of choice to inflict misery on others. And so no one does it! Occasionally people will join and test the limits, and I find it very encouraging that the guild as a whole comes down on it, because no one enjoys it and we’d rather encourage good behavior than brutally kick people, especially with how guilds are set up these days with rep and such. After a particuarly big blowup with one person in early Wrath, I can count on one hand the number of people I’ve had to gkick since then. So really, it sucks once or twice, but know that there’s likely a better future ahead for you and the rest of the guild.
This should probably have been a Seed article instead, sorry it’s so long. TL:DR, be brave, don’t let people ruin your guild or your raids with their entitled or lazy attitude, and keep moving ahead. In my experience, it lightens your load over time, even though it’s tough at the start to set all of it up, it’s worth it in the end. Our guild is celebrating five awesome years together this year, and our guild meet-up is next week!
Best of luck in your own guild leadering!
thawedtheorc Jun 27th 2011 5:57PM
I'm too casual to read this.
Priestess Jun 27th 2011 6:07PM
But hardcore enough to reply. =)
Matthew Jun 27th 2011 6:04PM
I for one am looking forward to the nerfing. It means the effort I am willing to put in will be matched by the content. (I don't raid at the moment because I'm not willing to commit to what being a good raider entails.)
You can't expect the content to change, so, in the case of 'team two' I say either increase your effort (and I think the idea of showing them how the fail will happen is a good one) or wait for the nerfs.
Astoreth Jun 27th 2011 7:37PM
Kudos to you for defining what you want vs. what you're willing to expend for it, making a well-reasoned judgment call based on it and owning your choices. I hope 4.2 brings you everything you want. :-D