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6-29-2011 @ 2:28PM
First: I agree on the general premise that an ability that strong on some encounters is essentially un-balanceable.But - there are a few points I disagree with:1) I'm not sure it is good for the game's design for any class to be able to swap targets without penalty, and almost all classes take a penalty for swapping (run time, build up, etc). The few that don't should probably be brought in line with the others. We've seen affliction and shadow toned down in this space, and I imagine other specs that seem too easy to target swap on likely will be (or should be) as well. My own marks hunter comes to mind. This is different from me saying that rogues are or are not paying too high of a penalty for swapping targets, but there seems to be an argument in the article that they should be able to swap for free. This is what I am contesting. 2) Beast mastery is no longer a dead tree, just an unpopular one. Look at the articles by wow insider's own authors on the topic - it’s within 10% on most fights for a hunter with the same gear and skill. Its long time position at the bottom and the fact that it’s still not ahead of the other specs on most fights keeps it from showing well on the big DPS log aggregators because the most skilled players are used to other specs and don't have another reason to change over to BM.
6-29-2011 @ 2:41PM
Agreed BM isn't bad at all these days. Getting tired of hearing about how bad they are in game and out when it simply isn't true. Pile on retribution though all you want - that spec does ok damage but is really not fun to play.
6-29-2011 @ 2:49PM
10% behind is not competitive. If everyone in your raid is 10% behind where they could be, it's like 9-manning content (or 23-manning). That might work for normal modes, but a class needs to be able to scale from dungeons to heroic raids.
6-29-2011 @ 2:57PM
BM now has better burst aoe than most aoe classes. Spirit worm + bestial wrath + burrow attack = 250000 dps for the duration of the burrow. Our top hunter can nearly solo kill the aberrations on normal maloriak.The point is: is there really a problem with having certain specs fill niche roles? That's why we have dual specs, right?
6-29-2011 @ 3:20PM
Within 10% isn't balanced? Isn't that an almost impossibly high bar to set for game balance? I mean, +/- 2-3k theoritical possible max dps is less than the difference between playing a spec well and playing it great. Its only like 9 manning if everyone in your raid are hitting the simulator DPS of their spec/gear. Almost no one is within 10% of those numbers.I don't think its reasonable to push the devs to balance wow classes better than they have ever been balanced and better than any video game aspects of similar complexity have ever been balanced. Even in a heroics, I have to imagine people do better DPS in specs that they like rather than ones that sim a little higher. Otherwise, you'd better re-roll marks or affliction instead of making your team carry you because you sim low as a rogue right now right? :) Or... you probably beat out players of lots of classes that sim higher than you because you're more skilled than they are! Skill matters more than a 10% theoretical dps difference.
6-29-2011 @ 3:26PM
"Almost no one is within 10% of those numbers."I regularly beat my simulated dps as sub...but that's probably because Shadowcraft isn't great at measuring sub. That or i'm just uber leet.
6-29-2011 @ 3:27PM
A 10% DPS differential is fine for what I do, which isn't heroic raiding (on my rogue). However, if with just 50g spent and a bit of time at the reforging vendor I can make my rogue do 10% more damage, I can guarantee you that I would do it in a heartbeat.
6-29-2011 @ 3:35PM
@OriflameI don't think you're taking into account how crippled hunters are in PVP. If Marks had a target switching penalty in addition to how many globals they need to use just to stay at range, they would be even worse off.Personally I think having a target switching penalty isn't very good game design. It's awkward and leaves the player feeling powerless. Rogues are the poster child for this with DP having to stack to five and the craptastic talent known as bandits guile. I think it's a huge part of why the rogue population has dwindled. Go check out Aldriana's post about ramp up, pretty much explains everything wrong with the class:http://elitistjerks.com/blogs/10672-aldriana/536-rogue_dps_ramp_up_time_burst/
6-29-2011 @ 3:38PM
I agree with Dale, though I know we are the minority. I have long been against class homogenization and the "bring the player, not the class" theory. We are still bringing the class instead of the player, but instead of basing the decision on what buffs he can bring, we are basing it on what is the "flavor of the month" class/spec as far as dps.Classes should do comparable dps, but still provide unique buffs/benefits to the group. Then, maybe we'd see something like "combat doesn't quite measure up to assassination, or arcane mage, but we'll bring him anyway because x buff for the group makes up for it."Of course, there is a breaking point, where the buff does not equal the dps loss (see 5% crit from HoT), and vice-versa, but using buffs to give a sub-par dps spec that extra oomph for balancing purposes seems a lot better than giving all classes the same utility, and trying to balance dps around class and fight mechanics.
6-29-2011 @ 3:45PM
Sorry, the end of my post should read "countless combinations of different class and fight mechanics".I just got distracted and forgot to complete my sentence.
6-29-2011 @ 4:23PM
"Chase Christian Jun 29th 2011 3:27PMA 10% DPS differential is fine for what I do, which isn't heroic raiding (on my rogue). However, if with just 50g spent and a bit of time at the reforging vendor I can make my rogue do 10% more damage, I can guarantee you that I would do it in a heartbeat."I like being one of the only combat rogues on my server. I like being in a casual raiding guild and getting laughed at in PUG raids by hardcore rogues. But I love beating them on meters. I love combat... and 10% more isn't enough for me to switch.
6-29-2011 @ 4:27PM
@Oriflame"Almost no one is within 10% of those numbers."You are comparing people's DPS with simulator DPS, which is not the point at all. You should compare Player 1's DPS with spec A vs Player 1's DPS as spec B.If the player chooses a spec that simply does less damage than he could be doing as another spec, he's probably holding his raid back, which was what Chase meant.On the other hand, you are right when you say that that does not mean that the top simmed spec will be the spec with which the player can unleash his best potential. I am such an example, Affliction sims better than Destruction, but I simply play Destruction better and do more DPS with it. That kind of sucks because I love Affliction, but I simply cannot reach the same numbers I do with Destruction... The thing is, I like Destruction, too, so I'm not really giving up fun for that either...
6-29-2011 @ 6:32PM
@XayideThe problem with what you're saying is you're assuming thata player will be as skilled with spec B as he is with spec A. I could respec my frost mage to, let's say, arcane; and maybe I'd see a 10% boost in dps. I'm just using those specs as an example, and pulling the percentage out of my butt so let's just pretend for a moment that that's true.The problem is I can't play arcane to save my life, but I have been frost since I rolled my mage and can do it in my sleep. I love the playstyle, I enjoy the character more with my spec, so I'm more motivated to practice and improve. I know I could pump more dps on my druid if I respecced and regeared as boomkin over kitty because so many fights favor ranged but again, I don't enjoy boomkin and I cannot play it worth a damn. I say a player who is playing the spec he enjoys will usually perform better than one playing another he doesn't, even if that other is a theoretical dps increase.
6-29-2011 @ 6:47PM
10% more damage is totally worth it if it just cost reforging. I'm still not understanding why people aren't kicking out huge numbers and topping meters even in fights with switching. Everyone HAS to switch so in theory everyone should be dropping slightly in damage.
6-29-2011 @ 10:54PM
It's not 10% behind, it's actually ahead on some fights, especially now that the marks nerf is active.
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