Previous tier of raid content is meant to be pugged, says Bashiok
by Mathew McCurley 
Jun 30th 2011 at 7:00PM
Bashiok does say that servers will take a bit to gain the momentum and general fluency with the encounters, but that it is entirely able to be pugged. Further, he says that from here on out, Blizzard has adopted the mantra of one cutting-edge tier, with the previous raids nerfed to allow players an easier time to complete them.
Personally, I am a huge fan of this type of content shift, and I think we've reached a pretty good compromise with regards to content accessibility and raid design. Raiders get their challenge while the content is relevant, hard modes are still skill-based encounters that do not get the nerf bat, and the previous tier of normal mode content is much more accessible to more casual raiders. Much as Ulduar drakes still presented a challenge in execution during Wrath even though we outgeared them, hard modes in Cataclysm are the execution challenges that will still prove to be tricky for meta achievements. Count me in.
Bashiok comments on previous raid tier nerfs
We specifically intend for the 4.0 raids to be puggable now that Firelands is out. Grabbing some tier 11 by way of Justice, quest rewards, plus across the board difficulty nerfs should really be enough to get them going.
The patch has only been out a day or so though. I think it'll probably take a little bit before people really get it into their heads that they should be pugging the previous tier because it's not too hard to be successful. It's just getting people used to the various encounters and mechanics.
Maybe people are waiting for the holiday weekend? If nothing else, leading one yourself is always an option. I think we'd agree that we need some better ways to get pug raids together considering we intend to follow the "New Raid is Hard, old Tier is Puggable" format from here on.
The patch has only been out a day or so though. I think it'll probably take a little bit before people really get it into their heads that they should be pugging the previous tier because it's not too hard to be successful. It's just getting people used to the various encounters and mechanics.
Maybe people are waiting for the holiday weekend? If nothing else, leading one yourself is always an option. I think we'd agree that we need some better ways to get pug raids together considering we intend to follow the "New Raid is Hard, old Tier is Puggable" format from here on.
The news is already rolling out for the upcoming WoW Patch 4.2! Preview the new Firelands raid, marvel at the new legendary staff, and get the inside scoop on new quest hubs -- plus new Tier 12 armor!
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 4)
fbp Jun 30th 2011 7:04PM
I mentioned to my guild when the 4.2 nerfs to T11 content popped up that it was just going to make pugging that content to gear up for firelands much easier.
Some ignored me, but I already see some raid groups in our guild that had issues doing all the T11 content, come into 4.2 and they clear it out in one night.
cyanea85 Jun 30th 2011 7:05PM
How is this news? I thought that was the point of all the nerfs.
Pyromelter Jun 30th 2011 7:16PM
It's news because the lead community manager made an announcement in a forum post that it is the intended design is for old raid to be puggable and easy (or at least possible) for casual wow'ers to see and complete the content. (Thus ending speculation for blizzard's intentions in nerfing t11 normals.)
artifex Jun 30th 2011 9:10PM
It's also news because it states a new and better direction they're intending, at least for those of us who aren't hardcore raiders.
If you've got toons at the endgame but aren't skilled enough to be in an aggressive raid guild, or just don't have the time to get geared up when the content is brand new, you can still see the content you've been hearing about.
Still wish they'd put previous expansion raids on a cross-server raid finder for lower level players, so that people who know they have time for a long run and don't care about the gear can get one. Sure would like to see BT, Sunwell, even Icecrown on my leveling toons.
theRaptor Jul 1st 2011 12:29AM
Stop perpetuating the ridiculous "casual vs hardcore" divide.
Raiding for 2-3 hours a time, two nights a week, I saw all T11 normal raid content except Throne of the Four Winds. And my guild is ranked ~150th on the server*. Spending less time raiding then what the average person spends watching TV is not "hardcore" and I am glad Bashiok pointed that out.
The reason T11 has been "unpuggable" is because it relies on DPS to do a lot more then they previously had to do (like interrupts). And what you get in PUGs is normally a whole lot of bad DPS.
* And is "casual" in attitude. No raider/backup divide. No loot system that heavily rewards those who attend the most. If you want to raid only 2 hours out of a month you can do that in our guild. We also don't skill check people on the assumption they will get better as they play.
Eskarel Jul 2nd 2011 3:36AM
@theraptor
Being able to raid two to three hours twice a week or not is basically the defining point of casual vs hardcore. I am more than capable of raiding. What I am not able to do is allocate scheduled three hour blocks twice a week. This is why I am a casual and not hardcore. I certainly play more than six hours most weeks but not in scheduleable blocks.
The interesting thing about this of course is that there is no such thing as a casual raiding guild just different degrees of hardcore ones. Having firmly scheduled appointments and written rules in a game is hardcore and not having them when you need them just leads to drama.
Almost anyone with the ability to make it to level cap could learn to raid if they had the time, even back in Vanilla when bad class design and punishing mechanics made raiding much less accessible.
The thing that ma
Skarn Jul 3rd 2011 11:39PM
"The interesting thing about this of course is that there is no such thing as a casual raiding guild just different degrees of hardcore ones. Having firmly scheduled appointments and written rules in a game is hardcore and not having them when you need them just leads to drama."
Hmm, I agree that there are varieties of hardcore, but there are also varieties of casual. My own raid guild does 2 nights a week, 3 hours a night. We managed to clear all of the normal BoT/BWD/Throne content just before Firelands hit. We really do NOT feel "hardcore." I guess from your viewpoint we are, but from our viewpoint we're not. We take it easy, we have fun, but yeah, we have two scheduled raids.
I still don't think it's that bizzare an idea. Tons of people schedule time to practice/play baseball, basketball, football and whatever else in organized teams. They schedule at least one practice and one game a week, usually more. Why's it so odd/hard to schedule a pair of 3-hour blocks to play video games? Just the stigma that "video games r bad, sports r gud"? If it's just that you have no time to schedule, well, anything, then that is understandable.
Overall, I just HATE the "casual vs hardcore" mantra. It frustrates me to no end that the community tries to divide itself into two camps when there are so many more varieties than that.
Lloren Jun 30th 2011 7:06PM
I love this. Currently, I'm in a guild that pushes content and hard modes, but it's nice to know that when I decide I'd rather have a social life, I won't have to sacrifice being able to still see the content and have a good time.
Iirdan Jun 30th 2011 7:24PM
What's this? A person who raids current content and yet sees the merit of gradually lessening the difficulty of non-current raids so that more people can see the content?
...I think I may be in love.
Corath Jun 30th 2011 7:30PM
My guild is not in heroic modes of anything, but we were 11/12 normals before 4.2 hit. I personally don't have much time to raid, and am lucky if I do one raid night a month due to my and my wife's work schedules. This means I can actually pug things with a chance of success!
I'll take it. :D
Zakarii Jun 30th 2011 8:20PM
This is also great because it allows my guild to roll through the content on our alts while we push Firelands this week on our mains. :D
theRaptor Jul 1st 2011 12:33AM
@lirdan
Most people who raid current content think that. The people who are right at the top of progression, all normal mode bosses dead working or finished hardmodes, are a tiny percentage. It is much easier for us to gear up our 25 man team now so we can hit up 25 man firelands (dropped to 10 man guild because of ICC burnout).
I much prefer they make moderately difficult content and then nerf it later, rather then make easy content like ToC. Most guilds can't handle hardmodes but want more of a challenge then faceroll bosses.
eel5pe Jul 1st 2011 10:41AM
if hardcore raiders are honest about it they realize this change only benefits them- it makes it easier to recruit geared players.
Dril Jun 30th 2011 7:14PM
Depressing, it really is.
It demeans the whole ethos and reason to raid, and, frankly makes raiding unappealing.
Why should I bother with Firelands now, and struggle through it, when later on everyone and their dog will be able to steamroll through it. What do I get? Nothing apart from getting the gear slightly earlier.
It's a tragedy of raid and game design and it's one of the biggest mistakes Blizzard have made this expansion.
Why not have a really easy initial raid zone, then have a smooth curve of difficulty, rather than effectively cutting off content after an arbitrary number of patches?
It's sad, really, and it's the culmination of the misguided attempt to try and do everything that's begun to cost them subscribers.
SaintStryfe Jun 30th 2011 7:21PM
Because you enjoy doing it first?
Honestly, it doesn't sound like you like it much at all. If you don't like raiding - if you do it only to say you've seen things other people haven't - why not quit? Everyone will always see it all eventually.
Iirdan Jun 30th 2011 7:22PM
Yeah, I mean what reason is there now to go have fun with a reasonably difficult yet surmountable raid now when I can wait until it is laughably easy later? I mean really, the only fun part is the color of my pixels and the number of iLevel pixels it has, not having fun with 9/24 of my friends by learning to cooperate and play the game to the best of our ability to complete challenging boss fights.
Pyromelter Jun 30th 2011 7:23PM
Fail troll is fail.
lsprof4 Jun 30th 2011 7:25PM
How does this affect what you've already accomplished after the fact? Is it the exclusivity that gives a raid its value or the experience of overcoming a difficult task with the help and support of friends? Maybe I'm just missing the point here...
Ostentaneous Jun 30th 2011 7:25PM
You know what, just shut up.
angellusEU Jun 30th 2011 7:28PM
people can go back now and do sunwell and faceroll it, does that mean the people who killed it when it was new(and pretty damn hard,heres lookin at you M'uru) were wasting there time?
no i didnt think so.
quite frankly im glad, because it now means i can go on alts on off days and have something to do (since blizzard in there infinite wisdom combined raid lockouts for 10 and 25) and not waste my time