Drama Mamas: The case of the guild bank thief
by Robin Torres 
Jul 15th 2011 at 4:00PM
I'd like to give the "friend" of this week's letter writer a talking to, but he's not the one who wrote in.
Hullo Drama Mamas,
I am asking for some help regarding a RL friend and WoW problem. I am in my teens and wear a permanent back brace as a result of complications in my spine, so WoW and WoW Insider have been a great source of enjoyment throughout my mostly stationary life.
With the new patch and reductions in game prices, a RL friend (who introduced me to the game in the first place) recently got back into WoW. I am in a fun, casual, high leveled guild, and he asked if I could give him some cheap item enhancements--"+1 Stam" and such -- to restart his army of alts and twinks, suggesting that I take some from the guild bank. I like helping people, but I was hesitant to do so in this case, because I felt it was effectively stealing. However, I later decided to do so anyways because of other small favors he had done for me in the past and the low leveled items had been sitting in the guild bank for quite a while -- now there would be more room for higher leveled enchants.
The thing is, withdrawing several stacks from the guild bank for someone not in the guild has caused me to lose my rank and privileges. It's not a huge discomfort as I rarely need items from the bank, but being questioned and reprimanded by an officer shook me to my core. There was also the implication that I was lying and used the items for my own benefits, eg. selling them on the AH, or the like. I did withdraw one mid-level enchant for my tanking set, but that was it.
I'm not on the best terms with this friend anymore; part of me blames him for convincing me to take out the items, but the other part blames myself for my naïveté -- how do I know he really needed them? Even then, shouldn't I have known that it was wrong to withdraw so much from the guild bank? Should I tell myself to stop taking the demotion so personally and grow a spine (literally)?
WoW isn't quite as enjoyable anymore. I don't have a questing buddy now, and I don't know how to come to terms with myself -- I can't change what I did, but I don't know what to do. I'm too ashamed to log in much because I feel like I've been branded as a wrongdoer in my guild.
Do you have any suggestions?
Spineless in Seattle
Drama Mama Robin: Hey Seattle, I won't call you spineless because you just seem to have done what most teens have done at one point or another: succumbed to peer pressure. I'm not condoning your behavior, but I think you're learning a valuable lesson here that will help you be strong against questionable behavior to "help" a "friend" in the future.Let's talk about how you could have handled it:
- Get your friend a guild invite. If your guild is a casual guild, it seems to me that getting him a guild invite would have been a simple matter. Then he could have worked his way up the ranks and gotten access himself to outfit his army of alts. This is so obvious, I wonder why you didn't do it. Did he not want to? Was there some other obstacle to his joining your guild?
- Ask permission from an officer. If you thought it would be okay and make room for better items in the bank, you should have cleared it with an officer first, though asking for just one of each item would probably have been better.
- Offer an alternative way to help. Saying no to a friend is hard. But rather than say no, you can propose a solution you are comfortable with that still helps your friend. Offer to craft things for him yourself. Group with him to farm for mats, gear, gold, whatever. Create an alt to do random dungeons with him to help him gear up. If he refuses this help and only wants you to steal the stuff, he's not your friend -- he's just using you.
You've been branded as a wrongdoer in your guild because, I'm sorry to say, you are a wrongdoer. You could apologize and explain the situation (possibly linking to this column), and perhaps your guildies will soften toward you. Lisa has more to say about what you should do now.
Drama Mama Lisa: Robin's right -- you don't take stuff from the guild bank for someone who's not a guild member. Period. You need to go back to the officer who demoted you, apologize again, and produce replacements (as close to the actual items as possible; comparable value in gold only if you absolutely can't replace the items themselves). That's the first thing you need to handle, right away.Once you've taken care of that, suck it up, carry on, and count this as an embarrassing lesson learned.
Taking stuff from the guild bank is just completely awkward, if you ask me. Unless there are specific rules -- and most often, those exist for raid team members but not so much for the inevitable army of alts -- you never really know what's appropriate. If your guild's anything like the ones my characters are in, people dump tons of stuff into the guild bank but don't really take much out.
Yeaaah, awkward.
Here are a few commonsense guidelines:
- Ask an officer first. Sometimes, rules do exist; they're simply unspoken. See if a quick "Hey, I was wondering how people handle taking out items from the guild bank for alts ..." doesn't prompt a few more details.
- Get a feel for what others are doing. Early internet etiquette guided new members of any group or forum to spend a week or so watching the action to get a feel for the group culture, before diving in with a comment or post. (It's still the mark of a n00b to fire from the hip too soon.) Watch what goes in and what goes out. Do things pile up endlessly? Do players occasionally withdraw items for lower-level characters? Are the only withdrawals being made by officers?
- Contribute. If you only take things out, you're not sharing -- you're just taking advantage of everyone else's stuff. If all the raiders are gobbling up food made with a certain type of fish, you'll put yourself in very good graces by going fishing.
- If you still feel awkward, simply replace what you take with something of equal or better value.
Note: Please see Robin's comment below for how It came from the Blog and The Insiders do things.
Dodge the drama and become that player everyone wants in their group with a little help and insight from the Drama Mamas. Remember, your mama wouldn't want to see your name on any drama. Play nice ... and when in doubt, ask the Drama Mamas at robin@wowinsider.com.
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Drama Mamas
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 5)
wow Jul 15th 2011 4:13PM
In Shinanji (The Guild I run) I would've demanded an explanation of taking so much out of the bank. As long as your explanation was satisfactory, I wouldn't complain, as long as the items were replaced or Gold deposited in the Bank of equality to the value of the items taken.
I would've reduced privileges and demoted temporarily, but would've restored them after some time has passed and proved you can be trusted again.
Other than that just look back on this as a lesson learned and move on. In time your guildies will forgive and forget the issue, unless they are total douche's.
Live Long and Prosper
Shinanji
maggs Jul 15th 2011 5:18PM
Every guild has their own approach.
My own guild has a "community chest" system for most of our guild tabs where we only permit the deposit and withdrawl of raw materials. Everyone above our lowest "recruit" rank has access and can withrawl, and we simply limit the number of stacks based on rank.
If the raw material in question is rare or very valuable and we feel it needs to be regulated, it goes onto a tab with officer access only. Anything not on that restricted tab is expected to be used, and we generally don't ask too many questions unless we notice someone pulling out way more than they are contributing. Typically, in that situation, we ask them to schedule or participate a farming event to set the records right again and restore balance.
Largely, this system works for all of our members and the "honor system" on withdraws has worked out splendidly. We've even found that so many of our members are on board with contributing that we were able to sell surplus materials on the realm AH and the proceeds pay for near unlimited guild repairs for all ranks.
Will this work for all guilds? Maybe not. We're a high-level progression guild on our server, however, with over 30 active members on at any given time of day and to-date our banking system has remained drama-free.
Food for thought to any officer experiencing guild bank drama. Caio!
-Maggs
mageusitout Jul 16th 2011 9:25AM
My only concern with your demotion practices would be this.
-If you demote someone, it usually instills lesser guild bank privledges than before or any at all- So how does demoting someone teach a lesson or "prove" they are trustworthy not to do it again, if they don't have access anyway?-
~just sayin....~
pdubbya Jul 15th 2011 4:29PM
While the drama mamas are right about everything they said I keep wondering to myself, why such a big deal over low level enchants? Unless they were BoA enchants which sometimes sell for a couple k a piece I don't really see the big deal. It seems to me the guild you are in may not have really cared for you before. Not because of any moral wrongdoing but because to them you're just another "guildie".
Being in guilds of all sorts and actually having a leveling guild of my own I only see my g bank fill up, wishing people would use more items. If it were me I'd actually be happy somebody was taking advantage of all the low level stuff that's there for that reason. As far as you using low level stuff for someone who's not in the guild, who cares? IMO if he's a friend of yours he's a friend of mine until proven otherwise. This would be that "otherwise". I'd politely tell you that next time he asks you for stuff from your g bank that he should join the guild or work on them himself. I have people ask me for gold all the time (partially because I'm very rich in game) and I tell them that I work hard for my gold and so should they.
Your friend does seem like he's using you though and if I were you I'd cut ties with him in game and RL. Otherwise he'll do the same thing again in a different capacity in-game and out. The one thing I do find funny is the officer who reprimanded you. Lets not forget how much guildies contribute through perks to these leveling guilds. It sounds to me that this guild is on some kind of power trip over items that probably added up to 5g.
I mean give me a break...let's not forget that this is just a game. Don't go branding yourself as a horrible human being, and remember kharmas always around the corner waiting and I have the feeling it's waiting on your "friend". Cheer up gamer...life's a long journey where we ALL learn valuable lessons thru mistakes.
Noyou Jul 15th 2011 6:16PM
1. Great song. Chevelle is a good group (and from Chicago)
2. I think both Mama's got trolled. I mean wtf does anything have to do with someone having a spinal condition? Is that some sort of way to see if we feel sympathy for him? Has totally nothing to do with his story- only to set up his ending comment "spineless is seattle"? Tacky.
3. Mr. Spineless get over yourself. You took the goods (if this is even true) not your friend.
4. If it was low level stuff your GM should thank you. I run a smallish leveling guild and I wish more people would use the low level stuffs as pdub also stated. People tend to take out things and then replace them with crystal vials they fished up. Can't understand that one.
5. As a GM I monitor the guild withdrawals from time to time. The only time I would talk to anyone about it is if they logged on and took their limit every day for a couple days and logged out. It would also depend on what they took. If it were items they couldn't use or items I know fetch a good amount of gold I would have an issue. In my guild I don't allow initiates access to withdraw. Members get 1-2 stacks per tab but only have access to first 3 tabs. I tell people not to put high level things in the first 3 tabs but people don't always listen/read. To some extent If it's there you should take it. If it was a newly promoted member that's one thing but if it's a legit member of the guild who has been around for a while- they have the right to take what they want- if they want to sell it, use it for an alt, give it to a buddy, whatever. That's what it's there for.
6. You should promote people on level of trust and how helpful they are to the guild. With the guild finder now there are plenty of low level ninjas going from guild to guild to see what they can see. Don't give them access to the guild. They will usually leave within the hour or day depending on how patient they are.
Nadia Jul 15th 2011 8:02PM
@ Noyou
Maybe the person included the spinal condition as a way of showing that an answer of "go do some other activity outside" is not going to be feasible for him or her.
Pyromelter Jul 16th 2011 7:52AM
Most guilds I've been in have a kind of a "junk" tab. This is generally a free-for-all for things, like low level greens and blues, vanilla era motes, easy to obtain mats like copper ore and bars, as well as some leveling crafted stuff like non combat pets, enchant scrolls, and gnomish army knives.
So this letter kind of doesn't make sense, and I'm with the other people that are kind of puzzled over why an officer or GM would care that a guild member took out some very low-cost things that would otherwise clog up the g-bank.
dubiety13 Jul 16th 2011 6:01PM
@Noyou -- The fact that he mentions that he's a teen with a spinal condition that limits his activities is relevant for two reasons: a) it tells me he probably has few close friends, if any, because not only is he unable to engage in alot of the activities which his peers enjoy, but also, teenagers can be mean as shit to anyone who is "different", and b) it explains why WoW isn't merely a game to him, it's a way for him to interact with people where his disability is completely irrelevant, if not entirely unknown; it lets him feel normal, and that's important to teenagers. All of this explains why, even though this friend of his doesn't seem to be a CLOSE friend, he felt compelled to help him anyway -- this is the guy who got him into WoW, and WoW is clearly a meaningful part of this kid's life.
I don't blame his guild for acting the way that they did. If they're a casual guild, they're probably much less stringent on who they're willing to invite, and they may have had several prior experiences with people removing "worthless" stuff from the GB for non-guild purposes. It's also possible the demotion wasn't so much punishment as it was an attempt to prevent the guild from also being victimized if this "friend" tries once again to take advantage of "Spineless" -- because chances are good he will.
It's pointless, however, to tell "Spineless" how he SHOULD have handled the situation without also telling him what he should now do to make amends -- and it's clear he DOES need to make amends to the guild, at the very least to earn back the trust he lost. He needs to approach the GM, on a low-level alt if he just can't face the rest of the guild, and apologize, explain that he realizes in retrospect he was used and is embarrassed by the entire situation, and ask what he can do to get back into the guild's good graces. Do they need the materials replaced? Fine, he'll do his best to restore the GB to it's previous state. Is it really just a matter of principle? Ok, he'll pay a sum of gold in restitution and penance.
My guild operates a little bit differently than the average raiding guild; it's comprised primarily of a core group of people who have played together for years, plus RL friends and family of those people. Thus, although not everyone has equal guild bank access, most everyone feels they have a stake in the guild. As a result, most if not all of us consult with one another before removing items from the guild bank, although it's not actually required. The GM limits access to certain tabs, and has one set aside specifically for Cata mats and other high-value items that only he can access. No one in the guild has full access to any tab except for the GM, and alts rarely get access to the bank at all (if you need something that badly, you can log on your main for it). Other than the odd hacker here or there, I don't think we've ever had anyone try to loot the guild bank...
Izzy Jul 15th 2011 4:27PM
If they don't want you withdrawing items, they should put a daily cap on it, or protected tabs. Bad officers are bad.
Robin Torres Jul 15th 2011 4:35PM
The problem with enchants is that they stack into one big pile and are counted as one withdrawal. So you can pull out 3 stacks of enchants and get a huge number of enchants as opposed to just pulling out one at a time. You can't regulate how much of each stack you can take from the guildbank permissions.
The Dewd Jul 15th 2011 5:12PM
Robin - Unless the bank is completely packed full, there's nothing to say things like enchants (and gems, now that stack) and the like, can't be stacked individually. Or, if it's a problem, the officers should full stacks locked away in a officer-only tab where they can move a single enchant scroll (or two or whatever) to an all-access tab.
That having been said, yes, it's much easier to simply right-click a scroll and let it stack.
Finnicks Jul 15th 2011 5:33PM
@The Dewd
Even if you individually separate out the enchants into stacks of 1, there's no stopping someone from restacking them in the guild bank then withdrawing them all at once.
Anyone can move items around in a bank tab, arrange them, change how they are stacked, ect. There's no way to restrict that.
Noyou Jul 15th 2011 6:27PM
It's really easy- Low level enchants guild tab 1 (member access 1-2 stacks per day). Higher level enchants put in another guild tab with stricter access. With the way the guild is set up now there is no reason to have tons of crafted items plugging up your bank anyway. You can see what everyone in the guild can make and go to that specific person to make it if you need to. One of the more annoying things for an officer or GM is when people flood the guild bank with low level crap they made while leveling. I can't remember how many times I had to tell people "This is not your personal storage".
Karuna Jul 16th 2011 7:52PM
I think they should just break the lock off on guild banks, it's not like anyone DARES to even withdraw things anyway. The guild bank is nice in theory but nobody ever uses anything for fear of issues like this.
Shinae Jul 15th 2011 4:28PM
I would be glad if people used up the low-level stuff in the guild bank, even if it's to give to non-guildie friends. As it is, I can barely keep myself from scolding people from unloading their low-level crap (albiet useful crap) into the guild bank.
I'd rather keep the guild bank stocked with higher-level items, which would then require more care about how much is taken.
I think SiS's guild officers are being too harsh.
Gendou Jul 15th 2011 4:45PM
After the last bank cleanout where I had to sell a stack of 3 peacebloom here and a stack of 4 copper ore there, as well as destroy 14 stacks of snowballs, I've stopped bothering to not scold members when they deposit stuff that no-one will use.
Britty Jul 15th 2011 4:47PM
I find myself agreeing with, Shinae. The only exception, I could logically see, is if the writer was taking out the enchants that are commonly used on heirlooms. Those cost quite a pretty penny to sell on the auction house. The rest of the low level enchants...not so much in my experience. I can't fathom why they were punished so severely for things that are quite often deemed as trash.
The Dewd Jul 15th 2011 5:13PM
I agree wholeheartedly.
My guild has 7 tabs and the first few are pretty much always near full. Every so often someone (myself or one of my officers) will get fed up, AH a TON of stuff and throw the profits into the gbank for repairs, etc. I love the fact that people toss in what they don't need but I hate having to clean out the bank. I am, by nature, a WoW-Packrat and I've had to learn that, no, we don't really need stacks and stacks of raw fish and the like.
Anything that is too expensive to "give away" is locked up where it takes an officer to retrieve it - but we'll generally give stuff out to anyone who asks because otherwise it just sits there and rots.
Noyou Jul 15th 2011 6:33PM
Can't agree with you more. Low level crap is low level crap. I know when I first joined a guild I didn't even look at the guild bank for weeks. Then when I did take useful stuff out I felt the need to put gold in or fill it with something of equal or lesser value. After you see what some people take out and put in (or not put in) you quickly get over that.
KrisseyB Jul 15th 2011 7:45PM
Destroy SNOWBALLS?!? the humanity!!! (ok. i'm addicted to anything that can be thrown at another player)