Drama Mamas: The case of the guild bank thief
I'd like to give the "friend" of this week's letter writer a talking to, but he's not the one who wrote in.
Hullo Drama Mamas,
I am asking for some help regarding a RL friend and WoW problem. I am in my teens and wear a permanent back brace as a result of complications in my spine, so WoW and WoW Insider have been a great source of enjoyment throughout my mostly stationary life.
With the new patch and reductions in game prices, a RL friend (who introduced me to the game in the first place) recently got back into WoW. I am in a fun, casual, high leveled guild, and he asked if I could give him some cheap item enhancements--"+1 Stam" and such -- to restart his army of alts and twinks, suggesting that I take some from the guild bank. I like helping people, but I was hesitant to do so in this case, because I felt it was effectively stealing. However, I later decided to do so anyways because of other small favors he had done for me in the past and the low leveled items had been sitting in the guild bank for quite a while -- now there would be more room for higher leveled enchants.
The thing is, withdrawing several stacks from the guild bank for someone not in the guild has caused me to lose my rank and privileges. It's not a huge discomfort as I rarely need items from the bank, but being questioned and reprimanded by an officer shook me to my core. There was also the implication that I was lying and used the items for my own benefits, eg. selling them on the AH, or the like. I did withdraw one mid-level enchant for my tanking set, but that was it.
I'm not on the best terms with this friend anymore; part of me blames him for convincing me to take out the items, but the other part blames myself for my naïveté -- how do I know he really needed them? Even then, shouldn't I have known that it was wrong to withdraw so much from the guild bank? Should I tell myself to stop taking the demotion so personally and grow a spine (literally)?
WoW isn't quite as enjoyable anymore. I don't have a questing buddy now, and I don't know how to come to terms with myself -- I can't change what I did, but I don't know what to do. I'm too ashamed to log in much because I feel like I've been branded as a wrongdoer in my guild.
Do you have any suggestions?
Spineless in Seattle
Let's talk about how you could have handled it:
- Get your friend a guild invite. If your guild is a casual guild, it seems to me that getting him a guild invite would have been a simple matter. Then he could have worked his way up the ranks and gotten access himself to outfit his army of alts. This is so obvious, I wonder why you didn't do it. Did he not want to? Was there some other obstacle to his joining your guild?
- Ask permission from an officer. If you thought it would be okay and make room for better items in the bank, you should have cleared it with an officer first, though asking for just one of each item would probably have been better.
- Offer an alternative way to help. Saying no to a friend is hard. But rather than say no, you can propose a solution you are comfortable with that still helps your friend. Offer to craft things for him yourself. Group with him to farm for mats, gear, gold, whatever. Create an alt to do random dungeons with him to help him gear up. If he refuses this help and only wants you to steal the stuff, he's not your friend -- he's just using you.
You've been branded as a wrongdoer in your guild because, I'm sorry to say, you are a wrongdoer. You could apologize and explain the situation (possibly linking to this column), and perhaps your guildies will soften toward you. Lisa has more to say about what you should do now.
Once you've taken care of that, suck it up, carry on, and count this as an embarrassing lesson learned.
Taking stuff from the guild bank is just completely awkward, if you ask me. Unless there are specific rules -- and most often, those exist for raid team members but not so much for the inevitable army of alts -- you never really know what's appropriate. If your guild's anything like the ones my characters are in, people dump tons of stuff into the guild bank but don't really take much out.
Yeaaah, awkward.
Here are a few commonsense guidelines:
- Ask an officer first. Sometimes, rules do exist; they're simply unspoken. See if a quick "Hey, I was wondering how people handle taking out items from the guild bank for alts ..." doesn't prompt a few more details.
- Get a feel for what others are doing. Early internet etiquette guided new members of any group or forum to spend a week or so watching the action to get a feel for the group culture, before diving in with a comment or post. (It's still the mark of a n00b to fire from the hip too soon.) Watch what goes in and what goes out. Do things pile up endlessly? Do players occasionally withdraw items for lower-level characters? Are the only withdrawals being made by officers?
- Contribute. If you only take things out, you're not sharing -- you're just taking advantage of everyone else's stuff. If all the raiders are gobbling up food made with a certain type of fish, you'll put yourself in very good graces by going fishing.
- If you still feel awkward, simply replace what you take with something of equal or better value.
Note: Please see Robin's comment below for how It came from the Blog and The Insiders do things.
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Drama Mamas
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Reader Comments (Page 4 of 5)
Noyou Jul 16th 2011 5:03AM
Yeah. I think the whole story is fabricated right down to the "spineless in seattle" name at the end. It is an interesting topic to take on. Much ado about nothing. If it was truly someone getting butthurt about low lvl quest greens and enchants even if taken in stacks then the OP is better without the guild. It all comes down to one rule- if you care that much about the goodies in your bank don't let anyone take them out who you don't trust. Simple as that.
Velaxis Jul 15th 2011 8:18PM
Guild banks often have a tendency to fill up with a lot of rubbish, or low level mats, that members feel *someone* might find useful, so it's dumped in there en masse. As most have said already here, few guild officers would mind such items finding a home somewhere. It just frees up space. But donating to ppl outside the guild is a no no.At least ask first. It seems to me your officers were rather harsh on you, but I don't know the level of friendship you have with them or how large your guild is (large guild obviously means less one to one communication). You learned what was not a right thing to do, and everyone stumbles across these issues as they get to grips with guild etiquette. Just apologise, say you understand, and move on, imo. And if someone outside your guild asks for similar items in future, just say no. As others have said, there is always the opportunity for them to join your guild, if they lack one.
towermac Jul 15th 2011 8:23PM
Spineless,
We've seen lots of reactions on how your guild overreacted, (they did) but not much in the comments on what you should do, which was your question. I'm going to disagree with with the drama mamas on resolution; you do not need to admit you did anything wrong. I mean you didn't, did you? Not even by the guild's standards did you do anything wrong.
Was it ever posted that you shouldn't give anything from the guild bank directly to a friend? If it was, wouldn't that same logic then extend to say: "If you take x from the guild bank, you are enriched by $x gold. If you then later give away $x gold, you have effectively taken that gold from the guild." So by taking their charity, you have signed away all future rights of your own to provide charity? What is that? They have the right to dictate how you conduct your personal business? It's a bunch of crap is what it is. They can't treat you like that. It's bullying is what it is.
I'm going out on a limb here, and I apologize if I miss the mark: But I'm going to bet that you haven't had to deal with traditional bullying. When you are around your peers, playground, school, etc.; you have a back brace on maybe? At the least, people are aware of your disability? If so, then no real life bully worth his salt would be caught messing with you. (Playground bullies are crafty and know how to politically select their targets.) This is unfortunate for you, and one of the very few places in life where your disability actually puts you at a disadvantage. Of course, even in this case, it's not your actual disability; it's the way people treat you differently. I'm thinking that you are ill-prepared to deal with bullies.
Here's the thing: You can't let yourself be bullied. Never. Yeah, I know they got "reasons": Guild bank ... non-member ... principle of the thing ... blah blah blah... Whatever... for some freakin' low level enchants that are always dumped below cost 20 at a time on the AH by levelers? Unless they don't even bother and just vendor them? Really? That is the pettiest thing I have read on these forums. But yes, I guess bullies always do have good reasons. (They make good politicians later in life:)
That officer is bullying you. He's pushing you around.
What do you do? You pick up a two by four and beat a bully with it until he quits bothering you. Whatever it takes, is what you do; you don't allow yourself to be bullied. Period. Seriously. You say that's not fair? To hit him with a board just because he demoted you? Is it fair that he abused his officer position and talked badly to probably the nicest person on the server? Is it fair that you got in trouble for tendering charity and helping somebody? No. None of it is fair; just like it's not fair that you have to wear a back brace and he doesn't. It is what it is, and you have to deal with what's in front of you. The universe exists as it is, and it's good to be a part of it. Theres already plenty of "stuff" for us to deal with already in this universe; life is too short, my friend, to also deal with other people's self-inflated drama.
What do you REALLY do, since smacking some random guy on the internet with a board is likely a tough logistical challenge? ;) You drop that guild like a hot potato. Don't even say why or anything. lest you start some drama of your own. Just go. Perhaps; if they demote/kick/scold the officer sufficiently, and ask you really nicely to come back; maybe you'll re-join. Probably not, but maybe. In any case, you're the boss of you. And if they want you, they need to be worth it to you. More likely is; you go guild-less for a while, join up with a couple of guilds until you find a group of really nice people. People worthy of your company. People who, when they find out about your charity work of outfitting some lowbie; ask if they can help with mats or gold or something. People who have your back, instead of have at it. Don't let this guy bully you off the game. If you do, do you let him continue to take advantage of the weak and accommodating after you're gone? In the end, it's your duty to stand up for yourself, and make the planet a little better place for all of us.
Once you've decided that, you'll be a pillar of strength for the rest of us, in a position to take someone under your wing, perhaps someone in a weak and vulnerable position, without the strength of character you showed by writing into Drama Mamas in the first place. Someone who needs the protection, friendship, and good example of someone strong like you.
Good luck, my friend, and see you on the battlegrounds :)
Gimmlette Jul 16th 2011 12:09AM
I think one thing we can agree on is that the banking rules in Seattle's guild don't seem to be spelled out. In "Officer's Quarters", Scott pushes that relentlessly. "Always have your guild policies in writing." It seems to me that Seattle's guild does not have them clearly spelled out.
Seattle asks what, if anything, he should do. I look at what he did from the point of view of a guild leader. I've been through this kind of thing where people kept removing materials that it was obvious he and she were not using for him or herself. Plus, we've had suspicions about some people's consumption of some items. Our banking policies are spelled out so either myself or an officer would ask someone about the amount of materials removed. Based on their response, we would decide what, if anything was to be done.
Even if the items are low level, a flag goes up when a large quantity of things are removed by one person. I would have asked Seattle and then, upon hearing the things were for a non-guild member, would have reminded him that's inappropriate. We have all levels in my guild so that level 25 enchant may be useful to someone leveling an alt. I would not have demoted him for what appears to be a first offense. That's not how I do things.
Seattle needs to decide if this guild is one he wishes to stay with. I'm uncomfortable with how they treated him but it's his decision. If he wants to stay, I think he should apologize to that officer and the guild leader and ask what he can do to replace the items. Let them guide him. Do exactly what they ask. Explain that Seattle realizes he was used and he won't let it happen again. Then, allow the officer and guild leader's reaction to determine if this is really where he wants to be. I'll bet there are other guilds on his server who would treat him with more respect.
SiS Jul 16th 2011 2:32AM
Thanks Drama Mamas and everybody who commented. I appreciate
your input and time--it really means a lot. I'll try talking to the officers
and see if I can gain their trust back in time, but if they refuse I'll look somewhere else for a fresh start. I just hope I can enjoy the game without being reminded of this incident. And to those who are doubtful about my back condition, sorry if the name was a little cheesy--sometimes I'm not as funny as I think I am.
Thanks everyone again.
Undead Zombie Jul 16th 2011 4:14AM
I've never understood guild banks. I don't understand why there are greens there if no one is supposed to take them. It's confusing, and therefore, I usually don't take anything. I'm afraid people will take things a bit too seriously, and from what I see here, it looks like just that. This is what I'm afraid of, and why I stay away from that business. It never seems to end well.
librariankay Jul 16th 2011 6:38AM
Whatever the policies about a guild's bank are, the first and most important rule is that any rules must be made CLEAR, and communicated effectively to all existing and new members. It's imperative that everyone understand exactly what's expected of them for any deposits or withdrawals. There's a bit of uncertainty hovering all over the OP's letter, and that more than anything else would concern me about the situation. Whether or not their actions were allowed should not have even been a question. They should have known, dead certain, whether or not what they were doing was against the rules. If they did, there's little question the actions of the GM and/or Officers was more than fair. If they did not, the GM and/or officers need to re-evaluate their position and truly have only themselves to blame.
Robin Torres Jul 16th 2011 10:40AM
Having clearly posted rules in multiple logical places does not, unfortunately, mean that the guildies actually read them.
Corvana Jul 16th 2011 12:50PM
@Robin:
Then that is the guild member's responsibility and problem. If the guild rules have been posted in multiple logical places, and the posting has been communicated to the guild at large....at some point, there must be some accountability by the guild member. There's only so much hand-holding that a guild can do.
librariankay Jul 17th 2011 7:55AM
This is true, maybe I should have been more clear. Obviously if the GM and/or Officers made a clear effort to communicate and the guild member failed to take notice, the egg is on their face.
Pyromelter Jul 16th 2011 7:58AM
There have been letters in the past that I think us readers have ferreted out as trolling. I've personally never seen a +1 stamina enchant scroll in a guild bank, and can't imagine anyone would actually deposit something like that.
Also, there seems to be a split on the commenters. Some seem to think "what the heck is the big deal," while others are saying "there needs to be explicit rules, and if there are rules, and he broke them, the punishment was fair."
I kind of feel both ways. The whole letter just seems kind of off to me.
caroltoys Jul 16th 2011 9:36AM
As the mother of two teenagers who both play wow, I would have an issue with the "friend" who insisted that SiS do something that he knew was wrong. As an officer, I would be asking myself what SiS's "friend" would be asking him to do next, and how would it affect the guild.
To the people accusing the guild officers of bullying: protecting the guild is not bullying. SiS is being bullied, but it is by his "friend" who is pressuring him to do things that make him uncomfortable.
SiS, if you feel comfortable doing so, I'd let your parents know about the situation so they can help you stand up to this friend in the future, should the need arise. Good luck.
Robin Torres Jul 16th 2011 10:37AM
I wish I could underline this comment and put exclamation points at the end.
Koleckai Jul 16th 2011 10:31AM
I have always made sure that my contributions into the guild bank have been more than what I remove. I usually contribute consumables like food, gems, belt buckles or leg armors. However there are times when I contribute materials and gold as well.
This has kept me in well with the guild bank authorities.
undeadgoat Jul 16th 2011 11:54AM
Well, first off I don't think it matters if this letter was fake, because the advice given and discussions occurring are insanely valuable so seriously stop it you guys.
Second off, all my toons are in private, family/RL-based guilds--my bf, his siblings, his sis-in-law and me, I would ask before inviting anyone and would only ask for e.g. my brother (if I ever convince him to play). So we have over 9000 withdrawals (9001 I think?) Horde side and 500 Ally side and we STILL get huge gluts of low-level mats, six-slot bags, stuff that was bought on the AH and is useful to no one, and we all still forget to enchant our gear. So there's that.
Corvana Jul 16th 2011 12:42PM
When it comes to the guild bank, I've found that the best policy is simply to pretend that it does not exist. It may sound a little cynical, but I've found that it's oftentimes less hassle to procure what you need via other means (i.e., auction house, crafting alts, etc.)
Will in Seattle Jul 16th 2011 1:15PM
God, you're all so passive aggressive.
Seriously, should you give stuff from your guild bank to a non-guildie? - No.
Should you stop whining about Guild officers catching you? - Yes.
Should you grow a pair? - Definitely yes.
And stop playing WoW - people like you are spamming up my trade chat.
Tansey214 Jul 16th 2011 4:25PM
If the officer demoted him and took away his bank privileges BEFORE asking him why he took all that stuff, then yea, that officer overreacted. I don't think the OP says if the issue was discussed beforehand or not.
However, as a "Guild Leader" of a smallish, casual guild myself, I wouldn't have reacted this way (I put "Guild Leader" in quotes because when I started the guild and had most of the current members, I made it Guild Policy that it's not just MY guild, it's EVERYONE'S guild. We all work to level it, we all contribute, so therefore it belongs to everyone and my "Guild Leader" tag is just so I can set ranks and clean out the bank every month).
Ok, that being said, is the OP was in my guild and had done that, I would've approached him and had a polite, mature discussion about it, preferably over vent because I could get a feel if he was telling the truth or not by how he answers and the tone of his voice. A lot of "Ums" or "Uhs" or word stammering is a red flag (unless they have a speech problem, of course, which I'd take into consideration). Plus, it was low lvl stuff. If it was THAT big of a deal they could've requested he put gold back in to cover it or something.
I feel bad for the OP. Not because of his spinal problem, but because he feels alienated from his guild now. If they don't want him in the guild, they need to kick him, not be passive aggressive about it and make him feel unwanted so he leaves.
SloBash Jul 16th 2011 5:03PM
If you lay out a table with food with a sign that says "FREE FOOD" and then tell all the people around it "ok you're only allowed 4 things from the table" then people will take 4 things and if they take 6 you tell them off. If you say nothing then what are people supposed to think? It's a table full of free food. Your mate's hungry, no one said you had a limit so why not feed him too?
The amount he/she took matters not, what matters is that they had the rights to withdraw as much from that tab as they liked and then were reprimanded when they used that right. Most guilds have access to at least 6 bank tabs, some guilds up to 8. If you have items you want limited access to then you set those permissions in one of the tabs, if you have tab that has unlimited withdrawals then you're ignorant in thinking that people are going to just take one or two things and not just strip it if they want to. If this were a situation in court there's no way you could be found guilty for a crime that didn't exist before you committed it.
You mention rules that weren't stipulated. Imagine you've parked your car on a busy street, you come back to find it's been towed. The towing company says "yeah that street's really busy so we decided you can't park in those spots during the week anymore, we assumed people would realise that as it's so busy". Do you think the towing company had a right to tow your car?
The thing that really gets ME about this is that people think they can just throw their weight around as an "Officer" whenever they like claiming they have the "best interests of the guild" etc. You talk about guildmates being "just as real as your real life friends" and yet officers don't give them the same courtesies they would to real people.
If it had happened in my guild and it was items that we didn't want stripped from the bank (which wouldn't happen as we have pretty clear roles for our bank tabs) then i'd have had a word with the player and said "look, that tab was meant to be for guildies and you're not supposed to take so much out, we should have been clear about that before, please don't do it again and please pay back some of the debt" and left it at that, making sure that EVERYONE was aware of the 'new' rule. Knee jerk demotions and public humiliation are just bullying and I find it pathetic.
Karuna Jul 16th 2011 7:43PM
Whatever you do, don't be using items from the guild bank! As everyone knows, guild banks are for putting into only, anyone that takes things out is breaking the rules!