Officers' Quarters: Prodigal raiders
by Scott Andrews 
Jul 25th 2011 at 9:00AM
As Oscar Wilde once wrote, "I can resist everything except temptation." There will come a time when raiders in your guild are tempted to leave and join another group. Many things can prompt this desire: struggles in a new raiding tier, unhappiness over loot, personal issues with other raiders, scheduling conflicts, and so on. Losing raiders is part of the game, unfortunately. But what do you do, one guild leader asks, when they change their mind?
Hi,
First I need to probably intended to apologize for the very poor English and I hope the text is understandable. To read English texts is not my problem just write is not as good.
I am the founder of a small Raid guild. Guild was founded by myself and two friends. Since we have found no guild on our server, which could meet our requirements, we have decided to take matters into their own hands. The goal was to create a small raid guild for 10 man content and fill available spaces possible only with talented players. We only raid twice a week and still want to complete the content successfully, both NHC and HC. Currently we have set 11/12 and 1 / 13.
The real problem is as follows. Since we are the last 2 weeks Nefarian failed for various reasons is currently not possible to move forward. The Guild Board is of the opinion that we have before tackling other HM only complete once the content on NHC. The equipment of the raid member is above average, and thus should Nefarian actually be a problem.
In the last week we learned that two members have applied for another guild, which has put in 25 man content already 7 / 13 and is four times a week raiding.
We have both of course asked about it and talking it came out that one of the two like to do more raiding. We indicated that we would thus be unable to take in a raid, we might just as well give away the loot to a random player.
The two of them have inexplicably decided to go now but do not want and pulled their application to the other guild back.
This player is now unfortunately a caster and it was actually planned in the upcoming patch 4.2, giving it the legendary weapon. Our raid composition containing unfortunately no other Casterclass and we do not now what shall we do. We could of course change by twinks and bring back other caster in the group, but what would be the right thing?
The two Desateure lose their raid place and the two seats are vacant?
The two Desateure keep their raid space but ignore the legendary weapon?
The two Desateure keep their place and the raid group converted by alts of other players to get the legendary weapon?
You may have any tips?
Thank you for your time and hope for a response.
For the record, let me just say that I hate the Nefarian fight. My guild has had the normal mode on farm for months, and we still wipe to it all the time. It's a long fight, and all of the things that kill you happen well into it. Once you've got it figured out, it's not so much a test of gear or even skill as a test of your melee's ping, your raid's ability to jump over the strangely uncooperative pillar edges, and your kiter's ability to perceive the barely visible suggestion of fire that constitutes a raid-wiping hazard 8 minutes into the fight.
Anyway, my first recommendation would be to speak further with your two prodigal raiders about why they decided to pull their apps and come back. It sounds like one was unhappy with the amount of raiding your guild was doing, and I don't see how his problem has been solved unless you added more raids to the schedule.
What's really going on?
The real story could be that they were rejected by the other guild and came crawling back to yours. So, my second suggestion is to ask the guild leader of this other guild about what happened with their applications. Don't take your players' word for it. Guild leaders usually want to help each other out, so he or she is likely to be honest with you about it if you ask directly.
If it turns out they were rejected and they weren't honest with you about that, then they should no longer be welcome in your guild. I can't abide liars in online games. It's too easy to get away with it most of the time.
Is this the first time you've had trouble with them? If they've caused other problems, then maybe it's time to replace them. If this is the first time they've given you a headache, and if they've been honest, then they deserve one more chance.
A second and final chance
When players take that step to leave but then regret it and sincerely want to come back, they've learned something. They've realized what they like about your guild, and they've figured out that the grass isn't always greener. In these cases, they're actually more likely to stay than someone who has never tested the waters.
Before you let them off the hook completely, however, ask them what they plan to do in the future. Do they intend to stay for the rest of Cataclysm at this point, or are they still looking for other guilds to join? They may not be truthful with you, or they may simply change their minds later. Still, it doesn't hurt to have a conversation with them to gauge their intentions.
Of course, if they do this to you again, don't invite them back -- and make it clear ahead of time that you won't. You can't control what people do, but you can show them that there are consequences.
I don't recommend giving one of them the legendary staff just to bribe them to stay. That rarely works out well. However, if they truly do intend to stick around and you have no reason to doubt them, then treat them as you would any other raider until they prove you shouldn't. If it makes the most sense to help the caster build the staff, then do it. Just don't treat it as a reward. Treat it as a logical way to help the raid succeed.
/salute
Recently, Officers' Quarters has examined how strong new leadership can create a guild turnaround, the pitfalls of promising more than you can deliver, and lessons learned from Scott's own guild demise. Send your own guild-related questions and suggestions to scott@wowinsider.com.
Filed under: Officers' Quarters (Guild Leadership)
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)
Burnaphatone Jul 25th 2011 9:45AM
Deserter?
Sinthar Jul 25th 2011 10:16AM
I would like to say I would like to be able to speak/text another language as well as the person asking the question. Was it perfect? No. Was it understandable? Yes
At this stage in raiding - getting replacements should not be a major issue. So my answer would be similar to the author - allow them back (as I agree people - if they are being honest - should have a second chance). However also look for replacements. Make sure they know that if there are handy replacements for there slot, you WILL consider them. If they do not feel completely secure (ie they have a guarrenteed raid slot) then they may improve their behavoir.
As to the staff - well if you genuinely have noone else to give it to, then sure let the caster have it - it makes no sense to just ignore it and waste a potential upgrade for the raider. However if there are viable alternatives, explore them. There is nothing more galling than seeing the person who was to recieve the legendary say 'well thanks for that - now I have the dps for (insert guild name here) so Im off - bye'. That happened to our guild and tbh if wrecked peoples drive to raid for a while.
I personally do not believe the raiders in question 'changed their minds'. I suspect they were told that either there would not be raid spots for them, or possibly that the staff would not go to the new caster. I am also wary as two raiders went and came back at the same time. This smells fishy to me - are they RL friends by any chance? If so then it may be that the 'other' guild only wanted one of them as a raider - and they want to raid together.
No matter what happens - if i were the raid leader I would make it very clear that both of them have lost a lot of trust, and now need to regain that trust before their raid slots were secure again - let alone the gift of the best dps caster weapon in the game currently.
Mortenebra Jul 25th 2011 10:30AM
I'm trying really hard to suppress my desire to say, "Screw that."
I understand that people leave guilds for various reasons and not all of them are bad or malicious. What I do have a problem with, however-- and the reason behind my "screw that" kneejerk-- is the sense of entitlement of the returning members. If I'm the only one perceiving that (which I feel like is the case when the OP brings up the legendary staff), please call me out on it. When someone leaves on raiding reasons and then suddenly comes back, I tend to think it reeks of 1) the other guild/team didn't have a desirable spot for them; and/or 2) the other guild/team presented competition the original guild/team didn't have... e.g. the other caster class capable of using the legendary or gear competition. And so they turn hide and run back, thinking that they will and should be welcomed back with open arms, guaranteed a raid spot, etc etc. mostly because they think you need them.
In addition to the advice under "A Second and Final Chance," I'd suggest keeping them on non-raid status and see how much effort they're willing to put into the guild and community for a little bit. Even if the guild is a raid- and progress-oriented guild, the feasts and cauldrons, for example, don't magically appear out of nothing: it requires a bit of work to make them possible even after the achievements. The effort could even be on a personal level of making sure they're doing the Molten Front dailies to unlock vendors and obtain gear that way... After all, a raider who cares enough about optimizing and updating their gear outside of raids is still a plus to the team as a whole.
My guild once had a prodigal raider in our midst: he would disappear inexplicably for months and suddenly reappear when the guild had worked through all of the kinks and strategies for raids so that we were pretty much on farm for the bosses aside from the very last boss in an instance. And, on top of all that, he'd be late for raids and go afk often. He pretty much took his raid spot and the raid team for granted, especially since we had difficulties filling the 10th spot as it was, let alone filling the spot with a dps'er who could crank out numbers like he could.
It wasn't until the GM/RL sat him down and said, "Shape up or get out," and he realized we were progressing and farming bosses just fine *without* him that he really turned things around. He even went as far as helping fish for the 10k fish achievement for the feast!
eel5pe Jul 25th 2011 10:58AM
So I clicked on this article expecting to read about wasteful raiders: maybe ones who waste time or waste the guild's money...
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/prodigal
Heh. People commonly misunderstand the word "prodigal" to mean someone who is lost or has departed, as the narrative of the Parable of the Prodigal Son revolves around a son who leaves dramatically, burning all his bridges, wastes his inheritance (hence, prodigal), and then comes crawling back, only to be surprised by the warm welcome he receives from his father.
Incidentally, my favorite parable. Always gets a bit dusty in the room when we discuss it.
Gnogmengnon Jul 25th 2011 11:37AM
That is because the focus is usually on the father's joy for the return of his son, and not focusing on the son's departure and waste of his inheratence.
Hor Jul 25th 2011 11:21AM
It fits here too though eel5pe, as the raider in question has squandered the goodwill of his/her guild mates. All of the work done building up guild rep, etc. Thrown away, only to come crawling back. Perhaps this is a bit too apologist of a response, but I can see it being apt if taken in the right light.
Shoryl Jul 25th 2011 11:44AM
What I would do:
If your players want to come back, and you have already found potential replacements for them, I would absolutely tell them they are behind the potential replacements for their raid spots. If those replacements get turned away because the old raiders came back, that news will travel, and you will have problems recruiting should the need arise in the future.
This is especially important if those replacements are folks who have been in the guild and raiding on standby/backup. They've put in their time not getting a raid spot every time and don't deserve to be put on the spot.
If you're in the position of not having any replacements for them, a serious conversation is in order, as mentioned, but how you handle it at that point is a much more grey area. I would absolutely make it clear that you won't stand for a second departure on their account. Gone and back again is not something you need in your raid, and allowing it will give the raiders control, rather than officers.
As far as the Legendary goes: Just because it might be the best fit for the caster dps doesn't mean that it won't be a significant upgrade for another, more stable raider. While I don't advocate wasting the legendary, I also don't necessarily think that player deserves it. Since I don't follow caster weapons (I don't raid any more and I don't play casters) I don't really know what use it would have to other roles.
Chance Jul 25th 2011 12:33PM
I left my guild at the end of wrath for a more "progressive" raiding guild. Cata hit and we went 11/12 within the first month, but I soon realized hardcore raiding wasn't my thing. I took my leave of the new guild, explaining that id rather be more laid back in my playing, they understood, and I requested a re-invite to my previous guild. I've worked up the ranks and am now an officer in my original guild and do not intend to ever leave it again. Sure the faster paced progression was a nice ego boost but as I say to all my guildies when they suggest I join a pug with them on a week that the guild doesn't raid "id rather not raid one week than get yelled at by an opressive raid leader and just down some bosses next week when all of our friends are able to get together".
As you stated, sometimes we have to see for ourselves that the grass isn't always greener on the other side, and id never hold it against anyone who wants to leave our group for something more progressive, however, as you also stated if it becomes a pattern and we become somebodys safety net then id be inclined to not have them return.
Chance Jul 25th 2011 1:11PM
Id also like to add that I was offered to be the first to get the legendary and turned down the offer. I remember an article here listing reasons someone should receive the staff and although I listed them to our GM/RL as a reason why the mage in our group should receive it first. There's also the fact that I sometimes have to sub as a tank and it would just take the guild that much longer to complete the staff if I was only receiving embers half the time while the mage received them when I had to tank.
Although id love the staff I can wait until after the mage completes stage 1 to start collecting my embers.
Lipstick Jul 26th 2011 5:26AM
Be aware that not all hardcore guilds are like that, and that there are some guilds out there that raid hardcore, with fast progression, where people aren't jerks, everyone gets along and they have that friends and family vibe. It's rare, but it does exist.
So don't assume just because you like the people in your current guild it's impossible to find a group of raiders who raids up to your level you also enjoy spending time with.
roosterfish Jul 25th 2011 1:52PM
Some good advice here. The other thing I'd suggest is to ask the other members of the guild what they think about the return of the prodigals. Some raiders might feel (quite understandably) that they've been betrayed by the sudden departure, and they don't want to play with those deserters anymore. If the other members feel they've been loyal to the guild and you reward a legendary staff to the returning mage, it could cause a lot of resentment and affect the entire team.
No one wants to pug the extra spaces, but you have to weigh that cost with the possibility that even more raid members could get very ticked off and leave. It's a delicate situation, good luck!
aloisgault Aug 5th 2011 6:33AM
Definitely talk to the other GM. I have a sneaky susspicion the moment these two get the staff epic they will leave again. The reason they came back to the guild is the competition factor, where can he get the shiny first. Take the "shiny" off the board. Do they want to be guild members regardless, having learned about possibly greener pastures? If they are not really returning to a group for the group's sake but just looking to "strap on a guild to use to win the epic" and just be gone again you may be better off sticking with a recruited mage and other class...........