Drama Mamas: It's time for That Guy again
Monday is a good day for drama, don't you think?
Dear Drama Mamas,
I'm in a small dilemma. I'm in a guild I've been raiding with since the last six months of Wrath or so. At the time, I helped to pull them out of a rut with Sindragosa and make an LK kill possible. [...] Now with Cata in full swing, I'm feeling a little undervalued as a pally healer. It's not my GM and his wife (who tends to co-lead), who are wonderful, amazing people. It's this relatively new-to-guild player who is a friend of an officer's irl. Since having to adapt to class changes with Cataclysm, I've had to undergo what looked like a lot of retraining, IE: my healing output changed drastically, not to mention I was compared to our other pally healer and fell far short. Now that I'm back on my game so to speak, I'm doing fine. Sometimes accidents happen though, and sometimes I make mistakes. I apologize, do better and we profit. I will say I haven't wiped a boss we had on farm. [...]
My big issue is that this newer player has pretty much dominated the raid night. He seems to do more talking than our glead/raidlead, and tends to try to work the group composition around himself, by swapping among his two healers to 'compensate' in a way for the other healers. He doesn't do this when I'm not in group and consistently makes allusions to the fact that he doesn't feel that I'm competent for my class/role. IE: "If we had better healers/better geared healers, I'd dps this fight." It was myself and an older member returned to the game aside from him. My GM's wife has said that he was called out in officer chat about it, however I have yet to see a change, as he has made similar assumptions/comments about group composition again this week. I've been told that this player never really got over that I had taken a while to 're-learn' my class so to speak, so each mistake is a 'nail in the coffin'. He's a good player. He's a valuable asset to the guild and it's raiding progression, whereas I am beginning to believe I'm not. I can raid only one night a week right now due to IRL concerns, and in the same token haven't been able to do much in the way of badge grinding. I really feel like if I hear more of this, I'll g-quit. I informed the GM's wife of this, and she answered that not all of the guild felt that way about me, which doesn't really show because they're mostly quiet when this player talks.
So far I haven't said anything in gchat. I've mostly just sent tells to the GM's wife, who I'm fairly certain talks to her husband... cause that's usually a safe assumption. I've sort of commiserated with our main tank, who really isn't that great of a tank, but a fixture in the guild. This player also tends to critique the tank when he's not around, going as far as backing up his reason for saying the tank is bad, such as failing interrupts, not focused, etc. With me, I get sidelong comments and no constructive advice, hence my frustration at what seems like unfounded attacks. I've done my research, I've listened to our other pally's advice, and I've altered my rotation and play style. Our guild is not a serious raiding guild, it's considered casual, even though we do have an application system. This player tends to push hard for progression. [...]
I'm just stuck trying to decide if it's worth staying in this guild where I've been and have wonderful friends, but get looked down on by the most vocal person in the room, or if I should cut losses and server transfer like I've been debating, or none of the above.
Thanks!
-Hurt Healadin
PS: I think it's super-cool that there's a WoW advice column. Who says we're not a subculture?!
WoW funnels more raiders into the endgame today than ever before. Guilds that never would have dreamed of taking on the latest raids even a year or two ago are hanging with the big dogs. That means that players who were perfectly content to cruise along a tier or two behind the cutting edge are now eager to keep up with the latest content. With that desire comes a natural escalation in expectations for skill and experience, time spent, mastery of material, and gearing levels.
Some guild members will dig that. And some won't.
I'm sure that Robin will have much more to say about the interpersonal dynamics of this situation, but I want to make sure you're looking squarely at the realities of the situation as it stands. This isn't the same guild that you bootstrapped out of the Arthas doldrums. It's two full raiding tiers later. There's a new guy at the center of attention in raids, and he's a hotshot, and he's very, very vocal. As you yourself point out, guild members are pushing hard for progression. And in the midst of all this, you're working with a reduced play schedule and the inevitable gearing and experience deficits that naturally brings.
All this boils down to two naked realities:
- Your guild culture is undeniably shifting. It doesn't sound as if Mr. Hotshot's behavior is a deal-breaker for your GM and his wife, and your guildmates seem to be willing to ride the new wave of energy and take things at a more aggressive clip, too. This isn't to say that your guild will inevitably become a hardcore raiding guild, but I think you'll agree that the tone has already ratcheted up a notch. You won't change that now, not at this point.
- You've become a casual player. For a while there, you'd worked your fingers back into the healadin gloves, but now you're already falling behind the curve again in terms of badge gear, drops, and experience with the encounters. You can't have your old spot back because you're simply not there often enough to fill it. As a casual player in a guild that's moving more quickly than you are, you need to get happy riding the other end of the teeter-totter ... or look for a new playground where everyone shares the swings at the same speed.
- Don't get defensive. Apply this to almost all situations. Yes, you are insecure about your role and the perception of your skills. But making declarations and accusations is a weak way to come at this issue.
- Don't be demanding. No matter how much the leaders may like you, they won't want to work with a troublemaker. I'm not saying you are, but I'm just warning you in case you are considering giving an ultimatum.
- Verify what the raid leader expects from you. Are you both on the same page? Does he know what day you can raid and what you are able to do outside of the raid to keep up with everyone else? This is the raid leader's chance to either confirm your role in his raid or give you a warning of changes to come. If it's bad news, it's best to find out now so you can adjust if possible or find a new home, if not.
- Be open to criticism. Perhaps there is some extra reading you can be doing during your offline time. Maybe you can squeeze in a few more activities to help keep up. Your raid leader may have some things to say to help your game that may hurt, but it's better than the silence from him and the nastiness from That Guy.
- Make a request for reduced drama. That Guy's snottiness is not the way to handle the situation. Duh. So once you've worked things out with the raid leader as to how he wants you to move forward, request that he inform That Guy about his decision. Explain that you find That Guy's behavior rather unprofessional and you hope that it will stop so that everyone can enjoy a drama-free raid experience.
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Guilds, Drama Mamas






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
blazenor Aug 1st 2011 9:22AM
I had the same problem with "That Guy" in my guild a long time ago, the side comments is what really got to me and cause me to make the mistake of confronting him directing instead of taking to the GM. I wish I had Drama Manas back then.
LynMars Aug 1st 2011 9:25AM
When stress and other factors got me to a point where my raid leader took me aside and said "hey, other people are feeling like your comments during raid are downing them" I took a step back and let a week or two go before raiding again. I will take off my headset (I listen through the speakers and just use the mic) so I'm not overtalking everyone, or if someone's frustrating me--because we're a casual guild, not hardcore progression.
Real Life pal of the guild leaders or not, if this guy actually has been spoken to, he needs to take some time out and realize he might be driving people away from the raid, whether they're regular members or back ups (like the writer may end up being due to his scheduling conflicts and lack of time--which there's nothing wrong with!). Losing back ups can be just as bad as losing regulars.
Expecting everyone in a casual guild to hold to the same personal standard, when the bosses are dying and progress is being made, can be harmful to the overall. I remind my roommate a lot that not everyone can perform to her levels (she's one of our mega-DPS), and the only thing she can do about it is to offer advice, link to pages with helpful info, and run people through instances on off nights to get them points and gear--or go to a more hardcore raid group. Otherwise, the raid leader needs to handle it during the raid and being elitist is only going to get her a disappointed talk from the raid lead and bad feelings from the rest of the guild.
Gendou Aug 1st 2011 9:33AM
Sometimes a guild's desire for a 'lack of drama' (read: inability to criticize players who are not doing their job) conflicts with their desire for progress. The 'new guy' might simply be saying what everyone is thinking.
Several things struck me about the OP's letters: The lack of time to raid time, the lack of time to spend grinding for gear, and their apparent performance issues.
The OP said, "I will say I haven't wiped a boss we had on farm." That means the OP has wiped a boss that they were trying to progress on.
If these 'mistakes' are consistent (and by the OP's own admission, they seem to be), the other players in a progression-minded raid environment are going to resent the player causing them - especially if that same player isn't grinding heroics for the gear necessary to get the gear they need for raiding.
Think about it: You have a player who logs in once a week to raid, who isn't working to upgrade their gear outside of raids, and who is causing wipes on progression bosses.
Even the most drama-free raid-team is going to resent having to carry that kind of player.
If all the new guy is doing is making indirect comments about inadequate healing and trying to arrange healing to compensate for carrying an under-geared, under-prepared player, I'd say his patience with the OP is a lot higher than would be the case with a lot of progression raiders.
The Drama Mama's are right: Talk to your guild leader (and possibly the other officers) without the benefit of your hugbox (ie: the GM's wife) cushioning you from what very well may be a hard truth: You might need to step back and let someone else have an opportunity to raid if you are unable to put in the time and energy needed to progress at this time.
Gendou Aug 1st 2011 9:40AM
Good lord. The typos, they abound.
/goes to retrieve coffee
SymbolSix Aug 1st 2011 10:21AM
^This
It's an unfortunate fact that there are very few players who are both (1) Competent to evaluate other raider's play, (2) Confident enough to speak up with appropriate criticism, and (3) Courteous enough to do so without coming off as "That Guy."
It's unfortunate that this "That Guy" is as much of a jerk as he is (reported to be), but Hurt Healadin seems like he's more out of place than he realizes. Raiding once a week and not making up the VP difference with Zulsjust isn't reasonable for a guild trying to make "progression," whatever your definition of the word is.
zubbiefish Aug 1st 2011 10:53AM
I agree with your sentiment about self-examination re: playtime etc., but I think most people have wiped a group on a progression fight. Unless you're on wipe # 23456, chances are that you're still getting the mechanics down as a group. So long as it's not the 12th instance of the same mistake, by the same person, complaining and blame gaming is counter productive.
Wrath trained us all to be much less fault tolerant. Towards the end you could bang out 5 heroics in an hour and a half, then pile into ICC, on your 4th alt, with a PuG, and roll up (at least) the first half of it without breaking a sweat, raiding became a game you couldn't lose. Mostly you ran out of time, or got bored, and that's when you stopped.
That state of affairs lasted quite a while, and now the pendulum has swung back, somewhat. The raiding game has simultaneously become more difficult and more accessible than ever. The patience we lost in Wrath hasn't quite returned to us, and expectations are higher than ever. It's a no-win for a guys like Hurt.
Regarding something LynMars said above; good back-ups are a fabulous thing to have, and hard to come by. It's what I do. I told my guildies right up front that my time was kind of limited, and that as much as I'd like to make every night I simply can't. I struck deal whereby I always, always, always, am available when I say I am, and I sit if the entire regular group shows. I think I sat out once, maybe. It's likely easier for me to do that as a DPS, I went Shadow for Cata after healing since BC, but it may be an option for Hurt.
Matt P Aug 1st 2011 11:09AM
I disagree that passive aggressive criticism is a sign of patience. In this case, it seems more like cowardice or reveling in causing someone else distress. I'd much rather have someone call me out directly than beat around the bush while tapping me on the head and giggling.
Gendou Aug 1st 2011 11:23AM
@Zubbiefish:
I don't mean the usual wipes while learning a fight, or the understandable, occasional accident that happens to everyone.
I'm talking about "That Guy" who only shows up on raid night, undergeared and underprepared, expecting to raid.
Not running heroics means that his gear is likely inadequate. It also means that he is learning Cataclysm play mechanics (healers and tanks were hit especially hard with the 're-learn your role' hammer this expansion) during the raid rather than in heroics.
That combination of undergeared and underskilled is deadly to progression. It means that at best the guild is nine-manning the fight, and at worst means they are being killed by someone standing where they shouldn't be standing.
If all of the healers are going OOM halfway through the boss fight, then the DPS is probably standing in the fire.
But if one healer is going OOM (or worse, letting their heal assignment die) before the others, then something is usually wrong.
If that healer is undergeared and refuses to gear up outside of raids (regardless of their reasoning), it's unfair to ask the rest of the raid to suffer repair bills and wasted time just to carry them and gear them up - especially when the other nine or twenty-four people have likely been grinding heroics in order to get themselves ready.
Ultimately, what I'm saying is this: The hotshot might be "That Guy" for speaking up about the OP's failings, but the OP is also "That Guy" for not holding up his end of the raiding bargain.
Gendou Aug 1st 2011 11:32AM
@Matt P:
I agree that I would rather someone call me out than beat around the bush.
But many, many casual raiding guilds have a 'no drama' policy that doesn't let people do that.
While it prevents name-calling and naming names in a harmful manner, it often also creates an environment where useful or necessary criticisms are seen as 'stirring up drama.'
There is a difference between helpful and harmful critiques, but these sorts of guild policies often don't differentiate.
It is also possible that "the hotshot" is trying to nudge the OP into doing the things the OP obviously needs to do, like run heroics for gear. He may even think he is being polite by not calling the guy out by name, but simply saying, "Healing is inadequate for our goals, we need to gear the healers up."
In the end, it seems that the OP wants to blame the new guy for creating a hostile raiding environment while the OP continues to rest on his ICC laurels, expecting the guild to both pat him on the head for showing up once a week while carrying him through the new content.
That seems like a far more selfish thing than anything the new guy has done.
Duffman Aug 1st 2011 12:23PM
@Gendou
butthatswrong.jpg
"It is also possible that "the hotshot" is trying to nudge the OP into doing the things the OP obviously needs to do, like run heroics for gear."
If you read, Healadin stated that he could only raid 1 night a week due to real life concerns, and really couldn't run heroics that often either. If he or she has a full time job, kids, other social priorities, ect., you can't expect them to drop everything just to go grind heroics. If their guild thinks their gear is good enough, then it IS good enough. Real life > WoW.
That Guy is probably the guy with multiple 85s, all geared to the teeth (due to the fact he probably has nothing to do most of the time) and expects everyone else to be able to do the time with much less time. I'd simply tell him to HELP his fellow guild members out, not tell them that they suck and need better gear. Being passive aggressive can ruin many things.
Dan Aug 1st 2011 12:53PM
@Duffman:
I agree that RL > WoW, but raiding is meant to be an activity that is meant for people who are committed to the game, if not time-wise, then at least effort-wise. If Healadin barely has enough time to get geared up through heroics, there are plenty of other activities he can do in-game that don't require nearly as much time and committment: random heroics, PvP, dailies, questing, achievements, collecting stuff, etc.
The difference between those things and raiding is that he won't be unnecessarily handicapping people who ARE putting in the time and effort. I think what Gendou is trying to say is that Healadin and other "casual" players shouldn't expect to have their cake and eat it too at the expense of the other raiders. Of course, we don't know Healadin's situation directly, so YMMV.
Just my two cents.
LynMars Aug 1st 2011 1:57PM
A "no drama" policy doesn't mean people can't talk to the raid leader to have him/her talk to the problem player.
Geared Shadow priest not pulling nearly the DPS she should be? Point out their meters to the Raid Lead so he can get someone on that to help. Someone's gemmed/reforged/enchanting incorrectly or not at all? Point it out to the raid lead so he or someone he assigns can handle it diplomatically, rather than having player A get jumped by random other team members.
"No drama casual guild" does NOT mean "never ever critiques or helps people who are lagging behind to improve." It just means it's handled by the appropriate guild/raid team channels at the proper times, not during the raid itself via snide remarks and snippy comments everyone knows are directed even if they don't name names, even if they're thinking it themselves.
There's being a team player, and then there's being a jerk to make yourself look cooler to the team. Same as there's being a team player, and knowing when to sit out or stick to back up/alt runs if time to gear and practice are an issue.
Trisnic Aug 1st 2011 9:46AM
From reading this I'm not sure if Hurt Healadin really even wants to raid. I run a raiding guild and as we've aged we have found that there are more and more retired raiders in our ranks. These are people who no longer have the time to raid but they still want to hang out with us. Even my husband is a "retired raider". With having only one day a week to raid I almost wonder if just doing the occasional guild 5 man, where new gear and experience would be obtained, would be more fun for this player.
With the one day a week thing I also wonder if there really is a problem with this. I don't know about this guild, for us we raid three days a week and someone who can just raid one doesn't help especially if the day is not one of our "naturally lighter" days. For example if we have 28 people online on Tuesday and 24 online on Thursday and the guy can only raid Tuesday that doesn't help matters and we'd rather bring someone who will be there all three days.
We also had to sit a long time raider and former officer who played a holy paladin because he wasn't keeping people alive. It sucked to cut him but we had to do it.
rodmin Aug 1st 2011 9:57AM
I have a smoother version of That Guy in my guild. I was on the main team as a paladin healer known for my quick thinking and vast patience on wipe nights.
Then That Guy came along, and i was shoveled into the backup team because he was a irl friend of the GL. Still, the days passed and i've did my best in the back-up team. Eevntually That Guy started to behave better, even though he does some fatal errors here and there.
My 2 cents for you:
- Whatever happens, be yourself and don't go away form that. Speak with everyone around, including firends and family, if they understand the subject (or at least bring the talk ot their level). If you stop being the one all in our guild like, then you'll give advantages to That Guy.
- Never exclude him 100%, talk with him sometimes, and show the reason behind your strategies, your ideas, YOUR CHOICES THAT MADE YOU A VALID RAID MEMBER OF THE GUILD. Be open to improvement, like dear Ms. Robin suggested. And most of all, remember that today's foe may be tomorrow's friend, as this did happened in my real life...twice.
Noyou Aug 1st 2011 4:48PM
Pretty solid advice. The only thing I would add to it is people like "That guy" tend to burn out or change guilds. To the OP: your willingness to get better is what makes you a good player and a good guildy. Keep doing what you can when you can. Also as they have said,
Talk to the GM yourself. Don't assume his wife tells him everything. Even if she did he might just think you are trying to stir things up by not talking directly to him. Talk to him, get all your concerns out in the open.
Scooter Aug 1st 2011 11:01AM
That Guy either needs to get in line or it's time to look for a new raiding group. It's important that everyone be on the same page; however, it could be that YOU are the only one who isn't. If no one is giving you a straight answer then it is time to pack up and move on.
My raid group considers itself to be casual, but also recognizes the importance of the individual pulling it's own weight. Raid awareness and adaptability are our #1 skills. There is no such thing as "I only work well with this person". You're either doing your job or you are not. Knowing your rotations is one thing. Being aware of what is needed is another. It's the difference between a 2-button and a 12-button Mage. Which one are you?
MichaelBerean Aug 1st 2011 4:58PM
I feel the pain of the Hurt Paladin here. I have been there. On the one hand, guilds change. It is unlikely that this guy will stop saying the sorts of things he has been saying. On the other hand, you are unlikely to find another guild that will let you raid with them once a week. There are a lot of guilds that would welcome a healadin who tries hard and who is consistently available twice a week. Still even in a great guild it will take a long time to develop strong friendships again.
My advice is to hold conversations in /tell with the guild leader, the vocal rude guy and the other healers asking for specific advice (pretty much in that order). If I understand your situation correctly they may not have anything further to say at this point other than gearing up. Whatever they say, try to be very positive and happy that they took the time to chat with you.
After that if the non-specific put downs in vent during raids continue, whisper the guild/raid leader *when it happens* that you need to talk to him after the raid about what the dude just said on vent. This is not to start a discussion during raid, just to flag it in his mind so he knows what you are talking about when you bring it up later. When you get a chance to talk to the leader tell him how you felt. Be specific. Don't make threats and don't get insulting. Try not to argue if the leader justifies or excuses what the rude guy said. Just communicate where you are coming from, how you feel about it. This may very well not change anything in the short term but in the long term it could have a big impact that could help your guild.
The next step would be muting the rude/vocal guy unless he is the one laying out the official fight strats etc. If that were the case he would be a defacto co-leader for the raids and his criticisms are officially part of the raid. You would have to decide if the overall experience is worth your time.
Peebers Aug 1st 2011 11:29AM
Hey casual pally dude, it's cool man! Sounds to me like part of the prob is letting go of being a "raider". I've been there. You're not quite as badass as you were or could be because you simply don't have the play time. You def don't have time to get your feathers all ruffled by some peacockin new loud mouth. Not worth the game time/money. Sucks to give up that hotshot first raid invite but just relax and enjoy the guildie relationships you still have and raid and build new relationships when you can. You do you man.
Peebers Aug 1st 2011 12:43PM
Whoops! Didn't have time to read the whole article and reply while on the crapper at work. Drama mama's nailed everything I wanted to say. Rock!
zEagleEye` Aug 1st 2011 11:35AM
Just a quick correction / observation:
From the problem description:
Our guild is not a serious raiding guild, it's considered casual, even though we do have an application system. This player tends to push hard for progression. [...]
From Lisa's advice:
As you yourself point out, guild members are pushing hard for progression.
Slight inaccuracy ...