Officers' Quarters: Raiding without characters
by Scott Andrews 
Aug 1st 2011 at 2:00PM
A question for the readership: How important is it to you that the players you raid with are interesting and engaging people? Is it essential, or merely a bonus?
This week, a raid leader complains that his guildmates are boring -- to the point that he's considering leaving the guild altogether. He wants to know what he can do to inject some much-needed personality into the guild.
Hi Scott
I read your column regularly and find it very insightful. I have implemented various pieces of advice within my guild to varying degrees of success so thank you for this. Now however its my turn to pose a question.
How do you create a guild with character? Let me explain this a bit with some history. I have been raid leader for my guild for the last 7-8 months and in the last 2 I inherited the GM tag as he didn't have much time to play. I was practically doing all the work anyway so this wasn't an issue. My issue is two fold, firstly I don't think I really like anyone in the guild apart from one person. And secondly it seems like I play with a bunch of automatons. This isn't to say I dislike anyone but its just they all seem to lack any sort of character and wouldn't say boo to a goose!
We built the guild with some core friends around 5 of us, we then recruited around those. We have done quite well clearing 12/12 prior to the nerf and starting work on Heroics. However when some of these left or stopped playing I obviously recruited more. I was hoping people would be friendly and gell and do things together. This just hasn't been the case. No one hardly speaks in guild chat. No one organises to do heroics with each other. Running raids isnt fun as there is no banter its just a job. Even going to Firelands recently no one was excited and it put a massive downer on me as we have been working on the old content for so long. I personally was very excited to be seeing the new zone but no one else was. I try to encourage people to interact, I have setup a website and forums where everyone is required to introduce themselves to try and formulate a bond etc, but as the saying goes... you can lead a horse to water.Hi, Confused. The concept of character is one of those intangible things that naturally develops (or doesn't) within a guild. When it's there, we take it for granted more often than not. Yet, it can be so important for the longevity of a guild.
I want to have fun in the game but running this guild is like a job where no one appreciates anything you do. As its the summer my gf and I have just decided to try and get through to September then make a decision. I either pass the GM tag to someone else and move to a guild where I might have fun again. Or I try and build an atmosphere of fun and friendship, I just dont know how to do this beyond what I have tried!
Please help!
Confused GM.
People are much more likely to stay in a guild where they enjoy the other players' company in a personal way. The fact that you're considering quitting the guild over this issue speaks volumes about just how critical it can be.
Unfortunately, it's not something you can really force. You can't dictate it through policy. You can't make people be more social or more fun to play alongside. You can only encourage.
Encouragement is the key
Your only hope is to lead by example and gradually draw people out of their shells -- at least, those who are willing. Here are some ways you can try to do this.
1. Be more social yourself. Be as active in guild chat and on the forums as you can. Talk about non-game issues to try to find some common interests among your players outside the game. You can try to spice up your raids with some banter -- even if it falls flat, at least it will give your players something to talk about.
2. Skip the Dungeon Finder. Make an effort to earn your valor points with guild members, even if they aren't much fun. You can sometimes get people to open up in a smaller group setting like a 5-man dungeon, whereas they might be too intimidated to do so in a larger raid. It also sets a good example for other members who might rely too much on PUGs.
3. Get on Vent early. See who else is on and try to engage them in a personal conversation prior to the raid start. The same principle of a smaller group of people applies here. Also, it's easier for some people to chat on Vent -- where their words disappear into the ether once spoken -- versus guild or raid chat, where what they've typed lingers for all to see.
4. Organize social events. Events like contests and games, achievement hunting, or PVP nights can give your players something extra to bond over. However, if no one shows up, the whole idea can backfire and merely reinforce the perception that it's not a very friendly guild. Thus, for your first attempt, keep it simple. A night for running classic raids or attacking Horde/Alliance leaders is a good start.
5. Recruit friendly. Go out of your way to find people who tend to be more chatty or social. Sometimes it only takes one or two people who are well liked to get more people involved in the act.
Realistic expectations
It's difficult to change an entire guild's social mindset once it's been established. It won't happen overnight. You'll have to keep at it and stay patient.
In the end, you could be stuck with what you've got. Your group is successful at raiding -- maybe that has to be enough. Not every guild can boast your level of success these days.
If that's not enough for you, and your attempts at creating a more lighthearted atmosphere bear no fruit, then perhaps you should consider a change. However, I would urge you not to look a gift horse in the mouth when it comes to successful raiding environments. They're not always so easy to come by.
/salute
Recently, Officers' Quarters has examined how strong new leadership can create a guild turnaround, the pitfalls of promising more than you can deliver, and lessons learned from Scott's own guild demise. Send your own guild-related questions and suggestions to scott@wowinsider.com.
Filed under: Officers' Quarters (Guild Leadership)
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
wow Aug 1st 2011 2:29PM
Confused,
As a GM of a very, very casual raiding Guild (A lot of my members raid in PuGs or with a guild we've created an alliance with. Plus, I created the guild to be a Social/RP Guild), I like to do Achievement hunting or doing old Raid Content. Doing these kinds of events just makes the game more fun. The other nite we did a Guild BG run. For the first time in awhile, we beat the horde at WSG. :)
Just keep plugging away at it, if they open up, they open up, but I wouldn't give up your Raid status.
Shinanji
Caliea Aug 1st 2011 2:38PM
It sounds like you have to decide what's more important to you right now. Do you want to be on the high end of raiding, or are you more concerned with finding a group that you enjoy? I don't think that the culture of your group is going to change drastically even if you take the good advice mentioned by Scott.
I don't belong to a guild that is in the leading edge of raiding. But I do belong to a guild that has some fun and engaging people in it that make me want to do things with them. We are leveling alts, trying our hand at classic raids, doing Achievement runs to earn drakes, and generally having a blast. We venture into new content when we feel like it, but it honestly isn't a priority for us. We have fun no matter what we're doing, and that matters a lot to me.
If you want an experience that's vastly different from what your guild is offering you now, you either need to recruit fun people or go somewhere else to find fun people to hang out with. It's a hard choice, but being the social director and trying to make people be outgoing and fun when they don't want to be is going to be even harder.
b0ydrgn Aug 1st 2011 4:05PM
Hey, I have the same issue, only not as a GM. I run my mouth on the guild Vent alot, and talk alot in raids during trash pulls, about anything under the sun. This has brought out more folks to banter in Vent than ever before. During raids, if we are pulling trash and not a boss we all know,I talk alot, in boss fights I shut up and let people explain the fight, afterwards, back to banter. Lots of folks are from "old School", shut up in Vent in raids since we are talking strategy. In "new school" we talk all the time. And alot has to do with other than the game. Good luck!!!!!
MattKrotzer Aug 1st 2011 2:46PM
In addition to raid nights, I can't say enough for Old Content nights. Going through and getting achievements in Ulduar or Icecrown (or even Naxx), where the fights are FAR easier with current gear/levels can go a long way to loosening people up and getting some fun chatter going. When you don't have to actually worry about dying, and can afford some silliness, you can make more jokes.
And remember: There's always Monty Python. Python is the great uniter in jokes, it seems.
Pyromelter Aug 1st 2011 2:48PM
This will either become blue with upvotes or black with downvotes, but I think there is a very simple way he can spice up his guild:
Recruit a few girls. Maybe like 3 or 4. I guarantee people will start talking and being more chatty. (Just be careful you don't get any real big drama queens - although that will definitely add some intrigue, it can bring down the guild.)
Good luck.
roosterfish Aug 1st 2011 3:13PM
That's assuming there aren't any girls to begin with, which is a pretty big assumption given that many players nowadays are female. Also, Female =/= Social Butterfly. We have several women in our guild, and some are quiet because they are simply quiet people.
Or they've learned the hard way that being female means they get a lot of undeserved sexist assumptions thrown at them (which you just did).
MattKrotzer Aug 1st 2011 3:40PM
Either way, guys DO get more chatty as soon as a female voice pops up on vent. (Or, as I witnessed one night, much to my amusement and several enthusiastic guildmates' embarassment, pre-pubescent boys.)
B1ue Aug 1st 2011 3:54PM
And there are plenty of guys that are incapable of shutting up for five minutes at a stretch, and force even Zul pugs to loosen up and chat. Like, oh, say, me.
Bynde Aug 1st 2011 3:01PM
I'm not a raider nor am I in a raiding guild. I may be wrong but isn't having 'boring ' people in your Raiding Guild the least of possible troubles ?
Kay Aug 2nd 2011 4:29AM
I'd have to disagree. For me, raiding is about having fun with friends. Otherwise, why not just play a single player game?
AudreyR Aug 1st 2011 3:15PM
I've been in guilds like that. And while I prefer to quest on my own, I much prefer someone to chat with while doing so.
Luckily, I'm now an officer in a very social guild. The above tips are right on the nose.
I run weekly old school raids. I sometimes give away loot card codes in silly contests. (The newer expansions have a much higher chance for loot cards, so I sometimes end up with an extra pet when I pick up a few packs.)
One thing I'm curious about is what kind of social environment the letter writer's guild fosters. A few simple rules could make people feel safe enough to open up.
With as many people as there are playing the game, you really never know who silent guildy number 7 is. If he feels that the environment is potentially hostile, he's much less likely to open up.
Another thing to remember is that some people just aren't chatty. Even in my current guild, we have several people who log in and never join in the conversation. We never push them to, either, as we encourage a play-your-way atmosphere.
People will chat when they feel ready and not before.
lockwoodnick Aug 1st 2011 3:16PM
To be honest, the guild I'm in now used to be very "nit-picky" and very seclusive (meaning that they liked to pick favorites). However, I talked to my guild leader every day about some of the improvements we could make to try and break away from that. Sure enough, we all banned together to work at it. It took a LONG time for everyone to get comfortable with the other players that the main guildies didn't know as well, but now we consider ourselves a family. Like how Scott said, one of our main keys that we used at first was classic and BC raiding. It was nice and relaxing and we all got some cool looking gear and actually completed some gear quests after the 2nd run through or so. We loved it so much, we all started looking into getting old legendaries! My guild is working with me to get Thunderfury, and our other paladin is trying to get Sulfuras. Some of the other ones are shooting for other legendaries like Valanyr and Shadowmourne, but this whole thing really helped to bring us together. Hope this helped. Good luck with bringing your guild together.
killer_tunes Aug 1st 2011 3:56PM
It took me over 3 years to find a guild that suited me. I'm still in that guild and my 3 year anniversary with them is in the fall. It just takes time and a lot of trial and error. I don't know about character but we have some characters in our guild. =) I think character comes with age and consistency of the player base. Lot of us have been in the guild for years, we carry on in gchat or in whispers and there is always some sort of witty banter going on. That only comes when people get comfortable with the people they play with and the environment they are in.
KPB Aug 1st 2011 4:12PM
It might sound odd but get people to stop using Push to talk. My guild uses skype for our 10 mans since it's free but also because it doesn't really have a p2t and the open microphone just leads to a more friendly open conversation. Might not work as well for a 25 man but works well for our 10 man.
terph Aug 1st 2011 6:01PM
I think I might agree with your madness. I tried Skype in a dungeon run with some friends and we were having a grand old time. The occasional silly sound or curse just added to the fun. If you're trying to get people to bond and talk like friends, getting rid of push to talk does wonders.
snarkygoldfish Aug 1st 2011 5:04PM
Fun, friendly, and pleasant people matter to me more than any other aspect of this game. I have left guilds of "competent" and "good" players in different aspects of the game in the past simply because I didn't mesh with their personalities, or found them to be downright abrasive.
I want my game time to be spent with people whose company I enjoy.
locksoflocks Aug 1st 2011 6:47PM
Being the GL of a guild that started as a lvling/social guild, that has maintained our player base for the last 3 years, I can honestly say that I blame Bliz! The concentration and focus that is required for even the daily quests is the elimination od guild chat or atleast has been for my guild.
At the end of BC (I started the guild 2 days after 2.4 dropped) we were all leveling and the guys were all very social, enter wrath, again for the entire duration of Wrath we were a very social bunch, we picked up a few new players along the way, and started to raid. Our raids were a hoot, everyone was having fun and being so social we actually went over on our scheduled raid times almost every raid (just so we could keep having fun together as friends).
Enter Cat. . . at 1st nothing changed, then more and more of us were getting to 85 and started in on the grind for heroics and dailies, people began to talk less and less. . . not that we aren't still having fun, but the amount of guild/raid chat has decreased so dramatically with 9 people on line it can be like a ghost town. When some one says something others respond, but the silence quickly descends again.
We are all still friends, and there is no chance that my locks are gonna bail on me, the problem is the focus necessary to get anywhere has gone up, we talked about it in a guild meeting, and we all agreed, it has become a job to get what we need done to be able to raid.
As to an answer to the problem, the only one we can see, is to know that we are all there for each other, but it is ok for us to focus when trying to kill this boss or do that daily, and if someone needs help we speak up and someone will come running as soon as we can (their may be a small wait).
Philster043 Aug 1st 2011 6:57PM
"Sometimes it only takes one or two people who are well liked to get more people involved in the act."
This is so, so, so true. I was a GM too but I'm going to talk about something else, when I was the administrator of a rather large forum. My responsibility was getting the staff together that was necessary to keep things going well and orderly. Early on, I was just looking for people who got the job done. The first version of the staff were a bit ho-hum, but they did their job well. I hadn't been planning to be administrator very long, just a year, and then I was going to turn it over to somebody else.
Then something happened. We got new staffmembers who were FUN - they were so personable that they made going to that forum personally enjoyable for everybody else too. I ended up being administrator an additional year and a half because I enjoyed the camaraderie so much, and the staff became more like a family. Sure, we would've gotten the job done regardless, but it didn't feel like a job anymore. And that was awesome.
So yeah, sometimes it takes one or two people to suddenly make everything fun. There are certain individuals out there who are talented at simply bringing out the camaraderie. It sounds like "Confused" doesn't have one of them. I actually doubt "encouragement" will help too much because if it's not there, it's not there. Recruitment is probably the only route that you can really take on this. Look for fun people and ask them whether they're interested in becoming something like a cheerleader type of contributor. Who knows.
Philster043 Aug 1st 2011 7:02PM
P.S. I wasn't as fortunate in my own guild. So I certainly sympathize.
rkaliski Aug 1st 2011 7:38PM
I have to wonder if the problem is "the daily grind". Honest folks it's the same stuff as wraith just different numbers. People are getting burnt out doing the same things but in different dungeons as they did with wraith.
You want people to get excited about raiding again? Get rid of the "insert name" points grind and go back having to get raid gear...OMFG.... from raiding not from running 5 mans. Get rid of the dungeon finder.
Seems like the only time people come online since mid Wraith was for the raid. There are no more alt runs in 5 mans to gear up, no more fun stuff like naked gnome runs. Its all business. Get the points, get the gear so you can get to the heroic and then the achievement, pound chest and yell.