Zarhym muses about 15-man raids
by Mathew McCurley 
Aug 11th 2011 at 6:00PM
There are many benefits to 15-man raids that work around the scaling problems of 25-mans and the tuning issues of 10-mans. The big issues with 25-man raids include scaling and filling out the roster. Many guilds cannot field 25 people for their weekly raid and usually have to resort to pugging a few stragglers who aren't in tune with the group. Other guilds who cannot field 25 players choose to do two 10-man raids, but the issue of group composition takes center stage; where two 10-mans require a total of four tanks and five to six healers, the 25-man requires two tanks and six to eight healers. You can get a nasty split if you don't have just the right number of specific classes.
10-mans have the benefit of being an upgraded group in that the regular group dynamic of one tank, one healer, and three DPSers is just doubled (in favor of one extra healer, usually). The biggest issue 10-mans currently have is the class distribution issue -- it is hard to accommodate every class in a 10-man, especially in heroic encounters, making group makeups and careful, specific group fixing the norm in order to progress.
15-man raiding potentially solves the issues on both sides of the coin. With 15-man raiding, you would have less of a burden to field a group consistently, as well as more spots for more classes. Also, Blizzard would have the ability to design encounters around a three-group setup, each with a tank, three DPSers, and a healer. There is a natural progression from 5-mans to 10-mans and potentially in 15-mans that doesn't appear in 25-mans because of the odd group configuration.
Anyway, it's all speculation and just fun to think about. There is no indication that 15-man raiding will become a feature in the future, but there are definitely plusses to the system in terms of design. We haven't seen a Dev Watercooler from Ghostcrawler or Fargo in a while, and I would love to hear their thoughts on the subject from the design point of view.
Zarhym discusses 15-man raiding
Quote:
I think the should add 15 man raids in cataclsym.
10 is too little and 25 is too much. It's like the PERFECT number.
So will we have 10/15/25 man raids. 15 mans will drop 3 pieces of gear following the 1Gear:5Players Ratio.
Please give your thought on this i would LOVE to see 15 man raids.
Edit:10Man-120VP 25Man-140VP so 15Man-130VP
I think the should add 15 man raids in cataclsym.
10 is too little and 25 is too much. It's like the PERFECT number.
So will we have 10/15/25 man raids. 15 mans will drop 3 pieces of gear following the 1Gear:5Players Ratio.
Please give your thought on this i would LOVE to see 15 man raids.
Edit:10Man-120VP 25Man-140VP so 15Man-130VP
I'd actually agree that 15 players make for a pretty optimal number of raiders, in terms of the logistics of forming a raid and class representation. The task of tuning raids for three separate sizes is one you probably won't see on our radar any time soon though.
The news is already rolling out for the upcoming WoW Patch 4.2! Preview the new Firelands raid, marvel at the new legendary staff, and get the inside scoop on new quest hubs -- plus new tier 12 armor!Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Blizzard
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 3)
razion Aug 11th 2011 6:09PM
5 mans -> 10mans -> 15mans
Seems logical.
It would all scale up in sets of fives--I'm certainly a fan of the idea, and I can see how it would be easier to balance the game, if only from a conceptual point of view (group + group + group = 15man raid, although it likely wouldn't end up working like that exactly). This could also help loot distribution be a bit more even.
I'd hope that if they do introduce 15-mans that they would replace 25-mans so they wouldn't have to balance for too many size tiers--the scaling sounds difficult to work with.
Boz Aug 11th 2011 7:03PM
After raiding in a 25-man environment for years it became difficult to swap to a 10-man of the same encounter. The raids feel (on a relative basis, mind you) empty.
I like the hustle-and-bustle of a very large group, despite the increase in potential delays due to player disconnects and real-life interruptions. I like the chatter, I like the variety, and I also like the flexibility of redundant class representation. But in the end, there's no logic to it: One is special ops and the other is a large assault force.
I get the appeal of both, but socially prefer the larger raid format, and would be saddened if it were mothballed.
PvtDeth Aug 11th 2011 6:19PM
15-mans to replace 25s would be interesting, maybe ideal. The only problem is that the outcry would be so great that it would sunder the forums leaving a swirling maelstrom in its wake.
razion Aug 11th 2011 6:27PM
We've changed raid sizes every expansion--we went from 40mans to 25mans and then to 10 and 25mans. It certainly isn't the first time they've done it, and it likely won't be the last.
blazenor Aug 11th 2011 6:31PM
I think there was a time when people cried about the end of 40man.
Sidone Aug 11th 2011 6:34PM
ideal? outcry? replace?
i really cant see your point, from my purely selfish perspective 15 mans ideals are replacing those hard to balance/idealsetupreq/tooeasywhenyouneedspreadout 10 mans..
just cant imagine blizz really destroying 25 mans, many folks ( including my guild ) has been togerger since tbc days ( and trust me, vanilla40 > tbc 25 transition was really painfull]
and now what? suddenly you dont have spot in your raid for 10 of your friends? how you choose who to pickup?
from my pov is much easier to go and find another five awesome ppl to your raid than go through your raidlist and picking names who 'make' it
Angus Aug 11th 2011 7:49PM
Sidone: chances 5 people in that 25 DON'T have a level 85 alt?
Grats on have 2 functional raids at 15 man level. And that is ignoring the obvious solution. 10 people left over? Guess we can do a 10 man...
matticus Aug 11th 2011 6:22PM
I worry that somehow a 15 man raid would require 1 Tank and 5 healers.
Methuus Aug 11th 2011 6:23PM
I really expect that Blizzard will only have one raid size in the next expansion. Having multiple raid sizes just makes Blizzard's job a lot more complicated for very little benefit.
I had thought that this would be done by dropping 25 and just going with 10mans for everything. But now maybe Bliz will split the difference, drop both 10 and 25, and just go with 15mans.
Mathew McCurley Aug 11th 2011 8:59PM
I have an odd feeling this will be the case as well. It would not surprise me.
Hollow Leviathan Aug 11th 2011 6:24PM
15 mans seems the logical next step for replacing BOTH 10mans and 25s. 5man dungeons, and 15man raids. I wouldn't get that bent out of shape about it. Plus, they could finally build encounters for 2-3 tanks, 3 healers, and 9-10 dps and maintain about the same ratios as 5mans, which could help with dungeon finder class inequality.
blazenor Aug 11th 2011 6:37PM
I think people who run 10man would cry about having to get 5 more players and players who run 25 would cry about having to get rid of 10. This would create huge drama in raiding raiding guild, but it is still a ideal number.
Revynn Aug 11th 2011 7:00PM
I know that the transition would be an easy one for my guild. Historically, we've run 10's with 2-3 good players sitting because we didn't have enough for a 25, or we run a 25 with 6-7 people who don't pull their weight and are only there because having 6-7 bad DPS is still better than trying to kill 25 man content with 18 people.
15 really does seem like an ideal setup. I wouldn't mind at all if every raid in the next expansion was tuned for 15 people.
Jorekas Aug 11th 2011 6:28PM
15-man raids - IDEAL!
Tfish92 Aug 11th 2011 6:28PM
I think replacing 25 with 15 or 10 with 15 would work out for the best anyway.
jfofla Aug 11th 2011 6:27PM
Remember when BD Strat was 15?
Matthew Rossi Aug 11th 2011 6:29PM
I'll say it again: why it went to 25 as max raid size instead of 20 has never made even a lick of sense to me.
15 man doesn't interest me, tbh, I'd much rather see 5/10/20.
jordan Aug 11th 2011 7:21PM
Yeah, 25 is kind of an odd number considering it is 2.5 times the next smaller raid. it makes balancing the largest raid and the smallest raid size trickier than it should be. Right now 25s drop 3x the loot despite not being 3x larger by proportion. Drop 25 mans down to 20s and you've got the right balance.
JA Aug 11th 2011 10:00PM
This is so logical that it astounds me they skip 20 and went to 25 as max raid size.
5/10/20 = perfect scaling
Hell, they could add a 40-man raid to that for the really hardcore and it'd still be logical scaling.
Mr. Crow Aug 11th 2011 6:29PM
The "logical progression" argument is the biggest flaw here. While there are some 10-man fights that require two tanks, there are some that aren't. There are no 5-man fights that don't require a tank, except for gimmick fights like the Jousting Match in 5-man Trial of the Champion.
A 15-man raid might appear to be a logical progression, but now we're talking about having anywhere from 1-3 tanks at any given point in time. And when it comes to 25-man, how do you handle it there? Still have it be a 3-tank fight or make it a 5-tank fight to keep the proportions right?
And if you have a fight that asks for 3 tanks, how to balance that in 10-man, where you may only have one plate-wearing character, which is likely the sole tank? They haven't used caster-tanking as a mechanic since BC, really, because DPS players like doing DPS, not tanking.