Officers' Quarters: More on raid saves

Part of good leadership is admitting when you've made a mistake. I admit it: When I wrote last week's column about trash farming, I was operating under the old raid ID system where the ID is shared among everyone. As many of you were quick to point out, that is no longer true. Each player simply gets saved to the bosses they've killed, plus any required bosses for those killed bosses, if the player didn't kill them. If you (like me), completely forgot about this new system, here's the full explanation of how raid saves work now.
I wish I could say that I was jet-lagged from traveling halfway around the world, feverish with a strep throat infection and disconnected from WoW after not playing for more than a month. Actually, I was all of those things when I wrote the column. It's not an excuse for fumbling such an important point. There really is none, but I hope my readers will forgive my lapse in accuracy. I'd like to thank everyone who pointed out the error for the benefit of any readers who may have been confused.
Now that I actually know what the heck I'm talking about, let's revisit the issue and talk about a few other controversial topics in the context of raid saves.
Trash farming
In the case of last week's email, the farmers in question were saved to a raid that had already cleared Shannox and a few other bosses. If they decided to kill a boss that was still up -- let's say Alysrazor -- it's true that the boss would still be available to the rest of the guild. However, the players who killed Alysrazor would not be able to participate in the guild's kill.
Let's assume that the guild doesn't have subs for all the players who are tied to the Alysrazor kill. That means the guild can kill any of the first five bosses except the traitor dragon, but without killing Alysrazor, the guild can't spawn the bridge to Staghelm. So by killing one boss, the trash farmers effectively deprived the guild of three.
It's not something that's going to happen if you have responsible players -- the key word being if. Some players just don't think about consequences.
How likely are your players to kill a boss on impulse?
Selling access
Something else that occurred to me as a possible raid-save exploit would be selling access to "easy" bosses that are placed later in a raid. Staghelm is considered by many to be a fairly simple boss, particularly on 10-man. What if one of your raiders was offered 10,000 gold for direct access to Staghelm? It's far-fetched, certainly, but it could happen.
There are plenty of players out there who are loaded with cash from years of working the auction house. They know the value of Firelands loot. They could put together a 10-man run for Staghelm, charge 6,000 per epic, and come out 2,000 gold ahead for 30 minutes of work (not to mention any Living Embers that drop). And they could probably charge a lot more. Heck, they could even charge each player a few hundred gold just for the opportunity, on top of whatever they get for the actual drops.
Or your own raiders could get it in their heads to profit this way, especially if they know that they won't be able to attend the next raid.
How would you, as an officer, feel about this?
Out-of-guild raiding
Something else the new system enables is for a player to raid with multiple guilds throughout the course of a week. Who would do that, you ask? Well, someone who is unhappy with their current guild might use the system to try out for another guild on the server. If your guild is more progressed that week, the player could even "bribe" his or her way into another guild by providing access to later bosses.
It's a stupid thing to do, and they'd probably get caught by someone who sees them in Firelands when the guild isn't raiding. However, they could just claim to be trash farming, couldn't they? And if they down bosses with the other guild, they could just make up some personal emergency and skip your raid.
The opposite scenario is also true. They could skip your guild's first raid of the week to try out for another guild, leaving once the other guild has cleared the bosses that your guild typically clears on the first night. Then they could rejoin your second night of raiding that week with no one the wiser.
How much do you trust your players?
Save shenanigans
Most of these scenarios are unlikely. However, this is WoW. It's a big game, and someone, in some guild, has already done all of this stuff. I guarantee it.
I don't think every officer out there should worry about it. Even so, officers should be aware that these situations can happen. I ended each section with a question. Ask yourself each one and then decide for your own guild whether it's a potential concern.
If such things bother you, then you can take steps to cut down on raid-save shenanigans. Write up a policy about raid saves and what your members can and can't do with those saves. I still believe -- though many may disagree with me -- that what you earn with the guild's help doesn't just belong to you, but to the guild as a whole.
As part of that policy, you could state that a member must notify an officer of any ventures into the latest tier's raids outside of official runs. I don't think it's too much to ask of a player, especially given the hard work that officers put in to recruiting, getting people prepared for, organizing, and then most likely raid-leading those runs.
It's a matter of respect. The officers, more than anyone else, laid the groundwork to make those kills happen and thus make those saves available. So to any nonofficers reading this, I ask you to be respectful when it comes to your guild-earned raid saves.
As for the officers, if you don't care about these things, then don't sweat it. If you do, then create a policy. You can't enforce such policies night and day. However, if you catch someone doing something shady, you'll have a clear rule against it already in place to enforce as you see fit.
/salute
Filed under: Officers' Quarters (Guild Leadership)






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
fluffybearlina Aug 15th 2011 8:08PM
My question is, what happens if you join a raid that has yet to kill a boss that you've already killed? What will happen? Will the boss be invisible to you? Will you be able to participate in the fight at all? Will you be forced out of the instance?
blancester Aug 15th 2011 8:16PM
you wont be able to join.
Devin Aug 15th 2011 8:21PM
If you join a run that is say 0/7 and you're 1/7 when you go in you're in a separate raid instance. The raid that is 0/7 will not see you. Everone has to leave, the raid leader has to do a reset, and then the person who is 1/7 goes in first. After that everyone gets the message about 1/7 bosses have been killed.
Zrob Aug 15th 2011 8:53PM
Hypothetical:
Say I'm in a raid that s cleared to Staghelm. Can I sell access to him to pugs or toher guilds. I'm lead, we get zoned in, you're at Staghelm, I make someone else leader and leave 10k richer before you even pull.
Can I do this multiple times a week?
If I do and I don't even down the boss to keep from getting saved should my guild even care?
furrama Aug 15th 2011 9:09PM
I wouldn't like it, but only because, (hypothetically), you're coming across as opportunistic and are still riding on the coattails of your guild/raid group. Should your guild care is up to them. Should Blizzard care is a far more valuable question.
To quote the Wowcredor: "You don't deserve anything you haven't earned. Now shut up and sheep the mob!"
Zapwidget Aug 16th 2011 4:13AM
Not to mention that nobody in the raid is actually saved to it, so if they wipe and everyone releases and comes back in, they're probably not going to be at Staghelm anymore, and will probably want their 10k back.
Sharlatan Aug 16th 2011 8:04AM
Its wrong.
Its also wrong to trash farm and sell the epics for personal gain. The Guild got you that save and you are profiting from the guilds boss kill. If you put the epics in the GB or sell them and put the money in the GB, then fine. Otherwise you are kelping yourself to benefits the rest of the guild granted you access to.
Bowieinspace Aug 16th 2011 8:40AM
Regarding farming trash for personal gain, I have to disagree, Sharlatan.
While those who are farming wouldn't be able to do so without the guild's previous effort, they are in there putting the time and effort in to farm for these epics. It's only a slim chance that epics will drop, and trash mobs respawn (each time with the same probability of dropping an epic).
Did you demand that Herbalists who were farming herbs in Freya's room for Frost Lotus pay the gbank? This requires even less effort, as they don't have to actually kill anything.
As long as it isn't hurting the guild, I don't see a problem with it. Downing bosses, on the other hand, is a definite no no in our small guild.
Zrob Aug 16th 2011 11:34AM
(just a note, I haven't done this, I'm just noodling out the consequences of the new raid lockout system)
But everyone else in the raid could do the same thing (sell access to the boss). It's not like my doing so keeps them from doing so.
As for the group wiping and wanting their 10k back, that's not really my problem, I sold them an opportunity at Staghelm, not a guarantee of victory.
Sharlatan, by your logic I should also give a cut of my auction proceeds to my guild. It was the guild benefits that allowed me to skill up so effectively in Enchanting and Alchemy and added Heavy Bags. So, should I tithe 20% of my sales of Truegold and Power Torrent Scrolls?
By that logic even there...what if I donated half my entrepreneurial endeavor of selling Staghelm Opportunities to the guild? Is it still wrong?
Boweiinspace you misread the first post...in this hypothetical, I'm
not downing the boss, the people I sold the boss too are downing him.
When raid night rolls around, the boss will still be up, I'll still be
in the raid, nothing will be different for our raid.
(cutaia) Aug 16th 2011 11:50AM
"Not to mention that nobody in the raid is actually saved to it, so if they wipe and everyone releases and comes back in, they're probably not going to be at Staghelm anymore, and will probably want their 10k back."
No.
We actually had to do this one week. We wanted to make our attempts on Nefarian, but had killed Magmaw earlier in the week or something, so we didn't even have anyone with a lockout to extend.
So, what did we do? We had a guildie come on an alt with his 5/6 BWD lockout and get us in. Then he dropped group and came back on his 1/6 mage. Works just fine.
Thomas Higgins Aug 17th 2011 8:50AM
I solo BC dungeons all the time, and have been known to do the same for Wrath. Just about all the loot I get I either sell to cover my repair bills, which at Level 85 Rare or Epic gear levels can be extortionate and make a profit on the rest, or I give to an alt to gear him up for that level of content. I do not stick it in the guild bank because there is usually no room, that stuff is already in there or isn't appropriate to deposit.
The guild bank gets a cut of cash every time I kill a mob and loot it, and it also gets guild experience as well.
I haven't yet got any decent drops in the Firelands raid instance, but I would probably do the same for BoE loot from trash. Any BoP stuff I got that I couldn't use I would end up selling anyway to a vendor, and I would auction any Patterns or Recipes I couldn't transfer to an alt.
Animaneth Aug 15th 2011 10:07PM
I had to deal with the Out-of-Guild raiding issue TWICE in the same week. I dont think it's rare or "remotely probable", it is something that do happen :/
Skarn Aug 15th 2011 11:09PM
A lot of it does come down to trusting your raid members. Actually, that's one of my preferences for 10-mans over 25s. I get to know all my raiders better. I trust them all very much. They are all free to do whatever they want with our Firelands lock after the "raid week" is over, which is Thursday for us. If they want to trash farm on Friday and get a PuG to go try Alysrazor on Saturday, that's fine with me.
I can certainly see the issue there, but fortunately it's not a concern I have with my raid group.
Quaza Aug 15th 2011 11:42PM
"I still believe -- though many may disagree with me -- that what you earn with the guild's help doesn't just belong to you, but to the guild as a whole."
This.
This. This. This.
It's amazing how many other people discount the other 9 / 24 people in their raid.
Going on a tangent here:
People have no sense of loyalty in-game; They forget those who helped them too easily. I think the whole problem is the anonymity involved. For example, I could receive a brand new Orange Staff, thanks to the effort of my guild. Ninja-transfer the next day. NO ONE would know where I went unless they did some serious digging. NO ONE at the new server would even bother to dig that far. Which brings me to my conclusion:
WoW needs a way to publicly display this information, preferably on the armory.
I want to know where this potential recruit came from, and why he's no longer there. Quite frankly, if you wronged someone then you shouldn't be able to spend $15 to negate any sense of justice.
/endrant
Cetan Aug 16th 2011 6:21AM
No no no.
It's not too difficult to track high-profile ninja-Oranges, and it doesn't require much effort. The receiving guild probably won't be able to trace it back to it's home, but certainly the losing guild is able to find that out pretty easily. If I were the guild leader, and I have someone with one of a dozen Orange staffs worldwide coming to my guild, I'm raising flags as to why he left his past guild after getting his Orange stick in the first place.
And definitely not publicly. MAYBE, very very MAYBE, as a feature for guild leaders only with X progression completed. While I value and understand high-end raiding guilds wanting to screen their recruits, what I don't want to see are people adding blocks into their application for "armory history logs". You have my armory profile to judge my gear, and my initial 2-4 weeks of "no loot" to judge my character. Sure, there are slips, but there are slips in ANY system. That's why GKick is there. And why you don't hand big pieces of loot to people who haven't invested a lot of time into the guild.
I don't mean to sound like anything other than what I mean literally, but, I would be surprised if a legendary weapon went to a non-officer before every other officer had the legendary. I don't think Officers are more special than regular raiders, but, generally, officers have been in the guild for a while, and have invested more than just their character three times a week in the current Tier.
On topic; in any progression guild I've been in, if you save yourself to anything that isn't the guild progression run, you were usually given one warning, then the boot. "If you're not going to raid with the guild, you don't need to be in the guild."
bdew Aug 16th 2011 7:16AM
I disagree, i think guilds expect (or even demand) more loyalty than they reasonably should.
When i join a guild i don't sign a life-long exclusive contract. I do not feel myself in debt to the guild, because anything we achieve while i'm a member, i am contributing an equal part to.
And if at some point i feel the need to move on (and lets be honest, people that just got their orange staff don't normally transfer away for the lulz) i don't want to be chased all over the game by some control freaks that think i owe them something, or that they own me.
Also i don't agree with the article, it sounds way too draconian to my tastes. Unless i agreed to raid exclusively with a guild (and i would think twice about joining any guild that requires such agreement), i don't see how trying out a raid with a different guild, or pugging or farming trash is a question of responsibility or breaking trust in any shape or form.
bdew Aug 16th 2011 10:44AM
Nice to see that i'm getting downvoted for posting my opinion, without anyone providing an actual counter-argument lol
DragonFireKai Aug 16th 2011 8:09AM
You know, at first I thought it was pretty cool of you to post an acknowledgment of bad advice given. But you've just gone and ran up a bunch of hypothetical situations that are outlandish, and for the most part, ultimately unrelated to the issue of easy mode raid IDs.
Selling access to Majordomo? As long as they don't get saved to a boss kill, why does it matter to you? If the raid they sold Staghelm to couldn't down the bosses to get to him, and want to pay for a crack at him, it's their concern. It's not affecting your guild in any way.
Jumpin in on another guild's run if they can't make your guild's raid? That's laudable, they're going out of their way to improve their character despite being unable to do so with the guild's assistance. Doing so as a means to try out with another guild? That's a matter unrelated to the raid save. Using your guild's progress as a bribe to get in the door of a less progressed guild? Someone trying to jump ship from a 6/7 guild to a 2/7 guild? That's a symptom of significant underlying problems in your guild, not a sign of being too loose with raid lockouts.
Getting saved is a legitimate issue, one that existed well before the cataclysm raid lockout system was introduced. That's something that affects the guild, but again, isn't really a matter of raid lockouts, it's a matter of self control.
Ultimately, the guild needs to be territorial, but that means it also needs to know where it's territory ends. If it doesn't prevent your raiders from discharging their responsibility to the guild, then trying to control just comes off as stifling and draconian. You wouldn't try and dictate what daily quests they could run? "Don't get saved if you plan on raiding with us" That's pretty much the only rule that needs to be stated, anything more is stepping out of your territory.
jtrack3d Aug 16th 2011 10:34AM
Hear hear... you hit it. I too appreciate that he noticed the premise of the previous article was in flaw. However, this supposed re-write did not readdress the original question which was... is it bad to farm the trash and sell the loot ... and I think that is... so long as they don't negatively impact the guild progress.
As you have pointed out, this post meanders all about a laundry list of hypothetical that were not even asked by previous blog's question.
While I do agree that it wouldn't hurt to have a guild policy on it. Any player that continues raid locks with another guilds or PUG is NOT necessarily harming the guild. If your guild raids M-W and you don't finish and plan to reset on Tuesday, there is NO harm in PUGing with other groups to try further.
The clear point here is communication. The guild should communicate what it's intent is and players should then be free to play within that boundary without making up unnecessary hand-shackling rules.
connordw Aug 16th 2011 1:17PM
"Let's assume that the guild doesn't have subs for all the players who are tied to the Alysrazor kill. That means the guild can kill any of the first five bosses except the traitor dragon, but without killing Alysrazor, the guild can't spawn the bridge to Staghelm. So by killing one boss, the trash farmers effectively deprived the guild of three."
This isn't true. Doesn't matter how the boss died, the game would let the bridge spawn. Only Alysrazor would be unavailable.