Officers' Quarters: More on raid saves

Part of good leadership is admitting when you've made a mistake. I admit it: When I wrote last week's column about trash farming, I was operating under the old raid ID system where the ID is shared among everyone. As many of you were quick to point out, that is no longer true. Each player simply gets saved to the bosses they've killed, plus any required bosses for those killed bosses, if the player didn't kill them. If you (like me), completely forgot about this new system, here's the full explanation of how raid saves work now.
I wish I could say that I was jet-lagged from traveling halfway around the world, feverish with a strep throat infection and disconnected from WoW after not playing for more than a month. Actually, I was all of those things when I wrote the column. It's not an excuse for fumbling such an important point. There really is none, but I hope my readers will forgive my lapse in accuracy. I'd like to thank everyone who pointed out the error for the benefit of any readers who may have been confused.
Now that I actually know what the heck I'm talking about, let's revisit the issue and talk about a few other controversial topics in the context of raid saves.
Trash farming
In the case of last week's email, the farmers in question were saved to a raid that had already cleared Shannox and a few other bosses. If they decided to kill a boss that was still up -- let's say Alysrazor -- it's true that the boss would still be available to the rest of the guild. However, the players who killed Alysrazor would not be able to participate in the guild's kill.
Let's assume that the guild doesn't have subs for all the players who are tied to the Alysrazor kill. That means the guild can kill any of the first five bosses except the traitor dragon, but without killing Alysrazor, the guild can't spawn the bridge to Staghelm. So by killing one boss, the trash farmers effectively deprived the guild of three.
It's not something that's going to happen if you have responsible players -- the key word being if. Some players just don't think about consequences.
How likely are your players to kill a boss on impulse?
Selling access
Something else that occurred to me as a possible raid-save exploit would be selling access to "easy" bosses that are placed later in a raid. Staghelm is considered by many to be a fairly simple boss, particularly on 10-man. What if one of your raiders was offered 10,000 gold for direct access to Staghelm? It's far-fetched, certainly, but it could happen.
There are plenty of players out there who are loaded with cash from years of working the auction house. They know the value of Firelands loot. They could put together a 10-man run for Staghelm, charge 6,000 per epic, and come out 2,000 gold ahead for 30 minutes of work (not to mention any Living Embers that drop). And they could probably charge a lot more. Heck, they could even charge each player a few hundred gold just for the opportunity, on top of whatever they get for the actual drops.
Or your own raiders could get it in their heads to profit this way, especially if they know that they won't be able to attend the next raid.
How would you, as an officer, feel about this?
Out-of-guild raiding
Something else the new system enables is for a player to raid with multiple guilds throughout the course of a week. Who would do that, you ask? Well, someone who is unhappy with their current guild might use the system to try out for another guild on the server. If your guild is more progressed that week, the player could even "bribe" his or her way into another guild by providing access to later bosses.
It's a stupid thing to do, and they'd probably get caught by someone who sees them in Firelands when the guild isn't raiding. However, they could just claim to be trash farming, couldn't they? And if they down bosses with the other guild, they could just make up some personal emergency and skip your raid.
The opposite scenario is also true. They could skip your guild's first raid of the week to try out for another guild, leaving once the other guild has cleared the bosses that your guild typically clears on the first night. Then they could rejoin your second night of raiding that week with no one the wiser.
How much do you trust your players?
Save shenanigans
Most of these scenarios are unlikely. However, this is WoW. It's a big game, and someone, in some guild, has already done all of this stuff. I guarantee it.
I don't think every officer out there should worry about it. Even so, officers should be aware that these situations can happen. I ended each section with a question. Ask yourself each one and then decide for your own guild whether it's a potential concern.
If such things bother you, then you can take steps to cut down on raid-save shenanigans. Write up a policy about raid saves and what your members can and can't do with those saves. I still believe -- though many may disagree with me -- that what you earn with the guild's help doesn't just belong to you, but to the guild as a whole.
As part of that policy, you could state that a member must notify an officer of any ventures into the latest tier's raids outside of official runs. I don't think it's too much to ask of a player, especially given the hard work that officers put in to recruiting, getting people prepared for, organizing, and then most likely raid-leading those runs.
It's a matter of respect. The officers, more than anyone else, laid the groundwork to make those kills happen and thus make those saves available. So to any nonofficers reading this, I ask you to be respectful when it comes to your guild-earned raid saves.
As for the officers, if you don't care about these things, then don't sweat it. If you do, then create a policy. You can't enforce such policies night and day. However, if you catch someone doing something shady, you'll have a clear rule against it already in place to enforce as you see fit.
/salute
Filed under: Officers' Quarters (Guild Leadership)
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Reader Comments (Page 2 of 2)
The_Benno Aug 16th 2011 10:01AM
IMO these examples really felt like grasping at straws after the main issue of raid lockouts was addressed. Maybe I'm just lucky that I know issues like these would never pop up with the people I play.
jtrack3d Aug 16th 2011 10:37AM
Exactly! This post was like TRYING so hard to find a reason to say... I was really right to not allow them to farm trash.
adamjgp Aug 16th 2011 10:28AM
My comment got eaten, so here's the short version:
I think that whatever the player earns during the trash runs are the property of the group he runs with. If another guild member creates his own FL trash group using our guild save, I don't feel entitled to anything that drops there.
What drops for your group is the property of your group.
Also, new comment system please? It has eaten 3 or 4 comments over the past 2 weeks. While my comments don't offer that much in the way of insight, it does take me time to type them all out, and time is money friend!
Zrob Aug 16th 2011 11:01AM
(just a note, I haven't done this, I'm just noodling out the consequences of the new raid lockout system)
But everyone else in the raid could do the same thing (sell access to the boss). It's not like my doing so keeps them from doing so.
As for the group wiping and wanting their 10k back, that's not really my problem, I sold them an opportunity at Staghelm, not a guarantee of victory.
Sharlatan, by your logic I should also give a cut of my auction proceeds to my guild. It was the guild benefits that allowed me to skill up so effectively in Enchanting and Alchemy and added Heavy Bags. So, should I tithe 20% of my sales of Truegold and Power Torrent Scrolls?
By that logic even there...what if I donated half my entrepreneurial endeavor of selling Staghelm Opportunities to the guild? Is it still wrong?
Zrob Aug 16th 2011 11:34AM
Boweiinspace you misread the first post...in this hypothetical, I'm not downing the boss, the people I sold the boss too are downing him. When raid night rolls around, the boss will still be up, I'll still be in the raid, nothing will be different for our raid.
Jcompguy Aug 16th 2011 12:24PM
I would not want to be in the same guild as the author, who seems like a paronoid control freak of an officer. I could just imagine him mulling over several unlikely scenarios in his head and randomly sending members tells about how they have wronged the guild. Not to mention he's had like a year to realize the raid lockout system has changed. What kind of raider, let alone a raid leader, doesn't know about something that important?
The issue here is whether a PERSONAL boss save is "owned" by your guild, and if there is anything wrong with using it for profit in a way that does not harm the guild. We're not talking about the guild member killing additional bosses, just profiting from the lockout in some way. In any sane person's opinion, there is obviously nothing wrong with using your own boss save to organize a trash run for rep, items, and gold. It doesn't affect the guild in any way and you aren't getting saved to any new bosses, so the guild has no say in how you spend your free time with YOUR boss saves.
Any officer who would say otherwise is an inexperienced controlling nerd that needs to get over himself. Lead your guild, don't try to enslave your members.
Copey Aug 16th 2011 1:16PM
We had a exactly the rule you suggest about raid saves back in Wrath. You had to save raids for the guild, until the scheduled night. IF, you didn’t go, or we didn’t clear or what ever, after the scheduled raids you were free to pug what ever you liked. The punishment for raiding early, was being sat from raids for two weeks. It was written on the forums, in a post that every single raider had to respond to in order to even get into our raids. Everybody knew about it.
But what happens when they are going to be out of town? “Why can’t I run early on Tuesday when the best pugs form” they would say. I would counter that people had said that so many times, and then miraculously been there for our raid anyway, and yet we couldn’t take them because they were saved. It happened over and over until we made the rule.
That rule caused so much contention, so many problems, and so many people left because of it, we eventually abolished it in Ice Crown, and never brought it back for Cataclysm. I see people in Fire Lands, and I’ll ask what’s up, but it’s no biggie. And the masses are happier for it, and we don’t experience nearly as much problems as we did before. If you don’t want to raid with us, fine. I’ll find somebody that does. Have fun sitting on the bench in a “Better Guild”.
TLDR Version: We used to have the rule you suggest, and it was an unmitigated disaster. And that was back when Raid IDs could be stolen and they meant something. Now, if somebody uses your guildie to get in, the rest of the raid is unaffected. And most likely an officer or GM will get word about your shady guild member.
steve Aug 18th 2011 5:56PM
Paraphrasing Thomas Jefferson:
Guilds are instituted among players, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.
Or if you prefer Barbie from Toy Story 3:
"Authority should derive from the consent of the governed, not from the threat of force!"
duskhawk Aug 16th 2011 3:46PM
I don't have a problem with our guild members trash farming in Firelands - we have some nights with no raids scheduled that people have time to kill. As long as they don't get saved to bosses, good luck to them on the purple rolls!
(We had problems in the past with people raiding with PUGs leaving, but they were generally raiding with PUGs because our raid times didn't work for them. We missed them in guild-chat, but it didn't hurt our raid team.)
mgodish Aug 17th 2011 7:52AM
The author sounds like a complete control freak, and if I ever stumbled into his guild, the ramblings of the last couple of weeks would leave me running for the exits. Dictating what can/can't be done by players on their own time, as long as it does not interfere with the ability of other guild members/society at large to enjoy their own playtime, is ludicrous. Since raidID's are individual not groupwide (and have been for months), it hurts nothing at all to farm trash if you're up for that kind of thing. All of the other hypothdticals brought up are equally silly, with the exception of killing bosses ahead of the group and the group being unable to field a full raid as a result. Screaming about "but you used my effort to get XYZ" is just as dumb as screaming at that person for buying the guild mounts. Yes, their achievement wouldn't be possible without you, but their effort was necessary and they have every right to reap benefits from that effort. Remember, leaders only exist as long as they can convince people to follow them. Make too many people realize that the cost/ benefit ratio of putting up with an arbitrary, whining jerk for a leader isn't worth it and you've got a group headed for oblivion.