Dev Watercooler: Ghostcrawler discusses massive changes to threat

Ghostcrawler addresses the biggest point with the most passion -- threat isn't fun. It never has been, and threat stats aren't fun to balance. Personally, as a tank, the most contempt and frustration I have for World of Warcraft comes from my inability to control DPSers who can't stop pressing their buttons for a second. It's just not fun to get mad at unskilled players. Ghostcrawler wants interaction between new and experienced players to be positive, and when DPSers blame undergeared or new tanks for threat issues when they have successfully beaten Ragnaros to a pulp and taken his gear, it doesn't make for a positive experience.
With patch 4.3, threat is going to become largely a non-issue. Threat is being increased to five times damage, up from three times damage. Each tank will be given new active defense cooldowns, much like death knight's Death Strike. Warriors, it seems, will be getting the biggest redesign of the bunch, with rage causing a big problem with how warriors need to spend resources to maximize survivability. DPSers will largely be unaffected and will, in fact, have less time when they have to stop attacking or stop their rotations, because threat will be less of an issue.
Check out the full blog post for more information on the huge changes coming to threat in patch 4.3. There is a lot coming in the future, and we will be testing this stuff heavily on the PTR and have more information when it becomes available.

Threat revisited
One of the fun things about working on an MMO is that the game design will evolve over time, and you have the opportunity to make changes to reflect those design shifts. (And yes, we know that it can sometimes evolve too quickly).
Back in December, I wrote a blog about our vision for how threat should work. Since then, the game and the community have continued to progress and the designers have found ourselves changing our minds about the role of threat.
Why have threat?
Threat's role, just so we're all on the same page, is to make fights more interesting. Tanks spend a lot of effort staying alive, but they aren't under immediate threat of death one-hundred percent of the time. Plus, their staying alive is also dependent on their healers and other external cooldowns. We have always been concerned that if threat was not a big part of tanking gameplay that tanks might get bored just waiting around until it was time to use a cooldown. Likewise, if DPS and healers had no risk of being attacked themselves then the sense of danger facing a powerful creature could erode. Furthermore, every character's toolbox includes some cool survival and utility abilities and the game feels more shallow if those are exclusively used for PvP. It's fun for a mage to Frost Nova an attacker and Blink away. It's fun for a hunter to Feign Death. Yes your life would be a lot easier without threat mechanics, but our goal isn't to make fights as easy as possible. Our job is to make fights fun. Having too much to manage might not be fun, but it's also not fun to be bored.
That's been our traditional argument for threat needing to matter. Here is the case against it:
Why not have threat?
Throttling
Threat stats aren't fun
We don't need a more complex UI
So now what?
Given all of that, and watching how tanking has unfolded in Cataclysm, we've gotten over the concept that threat needs to be a major part of PvE gameplay. We have therefore decided to buff tank threat generation in 4.3 to where it's generally not a major consideration. We expect the community to gradually stop using threat-tracking mods as players realize they don't need them.
It's an important distinction that the concept of "aggro" will still exist. If a DPS spec attacks an add the second it shows up, then the creature is going to come at her. However, if a tank gets an attack or two on a target, then the target should stick to the tank. Worrying about who has the creature's attention should generally only be a concern at the start of a fight or when additional creatures join the battle. Worrying about a warrior or DK (the classes with nearly non-existent threat dumps) creeping up on tank threat after several minutes will almost certainly not be an issue any longer. (And if it is, we'll have to make further adjustments.)
We like abilities like Misdirect. It's fun as a hunter to help the tank control targets. We are less enamored of Cower, which is just an ability used often to suppress threat. We like that the mage might have to use Ice Block, Frost Nova, or even Mirror Image to avoid danger. We don't like the mage having to worry about constantly creeping up on the tank's threat levels. The notion of aggro (who the target is attacking) is a keeper. The notion of threat races (who is about to pull aggro) is going to be downplayed from here on out.
Upcoming changes
Here are the specific changes you're likely to see on the PTR for the next major content patch, 4.3:
You could argue that once threat is very easy to manage that a warrior tank could just go AFK. In reality, given today's boss encounters, an AFK warrior would end up standing in the wrong place, missing a tank transition, or otherwise do something or fail to do something that wipes the party or raid.
That said, we ultimately don't want tanking to be just standing there soaking boss hits and we would like to have more stats on gear that tanks care about. To solve those challenges, we want to shift more tank mitigation to require active management. We'll still give all the tanks emergency cooldowns like Shield Wall and Survival Instincts. However, we want to move the shorter cooldowns like Shield Block, Holy Shield and Savage Defense so that they work more like Death Strike. Blood DKs have a lot of control over the survivability they get from Death Strike, but as part of that gameplay, they have to actually hit their target. The other three tanks will get similar active defense mechanics. This doesn't mean everyone needs to use the DK model of self-healing, but they can use the DK model of managing resources to maximize survivability.
Death Strike consumes resources to help the tank survive. We toyed at one point with the paladin Holy Shield being a Holy Power consumer and we think we could do so again. Heck we could make Word of Glory the thing you're supposed to do with Holy Power, so long as we balanced all tanks around that idea and didn't feel it infringed too much on the DK mechanic. We could make Shield Block cost rage, and change Protection warrior rage income such that they had to manage rage, the way Fury and Arms warriors now must do. If tanks generated more rage from doing damage and less from taking damage, then hitting a target becomes very important, but for mitigation, not threat management reasons. This is a bigger change than it seems though. We don't want a model where the Prot warrior ignores Shield Slam, Devastate and Revenge (since threat isn't a big deal) in order to bank all rage for Shield Block (because survival is). Imagine a rage model where you always had enough rage for your core rotational abilities (they could be cheap or even generate rage), so that you could funnel most of your rage into Shield Block when survival mattered and Heroic Strike when it did not. Redesigning Savage Defense to make it a rage sink is an even bigger change, but we think there is an opportunity there to make the rotation more interesting for druids (and all tanks really). Their rotation would help them achieve the goal that usually matters the most to tanks: living.
This is the kind of design for which we're really going to need a lot of feedback once it hits the PTR. We can implement and verify empirically how much threat a tank generates, but it's hard for us to replicate the experience of all of the various raiding groups and dungeon parties out there. We invite you to try out the immediate and eventually the long-term changes when they are available on the PTR and then in the live game and let us know how they feel. Do you miss the threat game? Are you bored when tanking now? Conversely, with the changes, is tanking more fun for you? Does this new implementation of Vengeance feel better? Some systems design calls we can make just by processing numbers, and some are more squishy and involve a lot gut checks and wishy-washy "but how does it FEEL?" language. Messing with this kind of thing is definitely somewhere in the middle.
Greg "Ghostcrawler" Street is the lead systems designer for World of Warcraft, and lead eater at the dinner table.
One of the fun things about working on an MMO is that the game design will evolve over time, and you have the opportunity to make changes to reflect those design shifts. (And yes, we know that it can sometimes evolve too quickly).
Back in December, I wrote a blog about our vision for how threat should work. Since then, the game and the community have continued to progress and the designers have found ourselves changing our minds about the role of threat.
Why have threat?
Threat's role, just so we're all on the same page, is to make fights more interesting. Tanks spend a lot of effort staying alive, but they aren't under immediate threat of death one-hundred percent of the time. Plus, their staying alive is also dependent on their healers and other external cooldowns. We have always been concerned that if threat was not a big part of tanking gameplay that tanks might get bored just waiting around until it was time to use a cooldown. Likewise, if DPS and healers had no risk of being attacked themselves then the sense of danger facing a powerful creature could erode. Furthermore, every character's toolbox includes some cool survival and utility abilities and the game feels more shallow if those are exclusively used for PvP. It's fun for a mage to Frost Nova an attacker and Blink away. It's fun for a hunter to Feign Death. Yes your life would be a lot easier without threat mechanics, but our goal isn't to make fights as easy as possible. Our job is to make fights fun. Having too much to manage might not be fun, but it's also not fun to be bored.
That's been our traditional argument for threat needing to matter. Here is the case against it:
Why not have threat?
Throttling
- As I said in the previous blog, it's not fun to feel throttled. It's not fun for the Feral druid to stop using special attacks in order to avoid pulling aggro. It's fun to use Feint at the right time to avoid dying, but it's not fun for Feint to be part of your rotational cooldown. We want you to spend most of your effort trying to overcome the dragon or elemental, not struggling against your own tank.
- I'd also argue that our encounters aren't really boring these days. We ask tanks to do a lot -- everything from picking up adds, to moving bosses around, to staying out of fires, to providing interrupts, in addition to the classic tank roles of staying alive and generating threat.
Threat stats aren't fun
- We put threat stats (hit and expertise for the most part) on tanking gear, because without those, tanks would be limited to choosing from among mastery, dodge, and parry. (In the current state of itemization, you are rarely choosing more Strength, Agility, Stamina, or armor.) Druids can't parry, and even for the plate users, there is a tight relationship between dodge and parry, and even mastery for the warrior and paladin. That gets us dangerously close to the old model of stacking a single uber stat (like Stamina or defense), which makes gearing choices too simplistic for tanks. Did something drop? Okay, put it on. (Contrast this to a DPS caster who might want more or less hit or might favor haste over crit, etc.)
- We want threat stats to be interesting, but the reality is that they aren't. Any decent tank will usually choose survivability stats over threat stats. Back in the day when taunts and interrupts could miss, you could argue hit was marginally useful. But in a world where hit is really just for generating threat, it isn't very exciting and tanks get understandably emo when we put too much on their gear. (DKs are somewhat of an exception in a good way -- more on that in a sec.) We do see some players try and get excited about threat stats or even proud of their ability to generate threat, but overall we feel like threat stats are a trap, and it's usually the case that improving your survivability will have a better net impact on your group's progression.
We don't need a more complex UI
- We have threatened for years (see what I did there?) to build in some kind of threat tracking tool into WoW. But is that really good for the game? Do we really need yet another UI element for players to look at instead of looking at the actual game world? We know many raiders in particular use third-party threat mods today, but that has really been borne out of necessity rather than a sense that watching threat is super compelling gameplay. (When we say "super compelling gameplay" you can mentally replace that with "fun.")
- I know this bullet will be a point made by players critical of this change, but I would feel remiss in not bringing it up. We want it to be a positive experience when Dungeon Finder matches experienced players with newer players. The skill and gear of the former can help make up for that of the latter. Who better to teach you boss mechanics than players who have done the fights before? Even better, the gear of a veteran tank can make up for the less powerful gear of a beginning healer (which doesn't necessarily mean a noob -- it could be the alt of a very experienced raider).
- However, this system fails and often spectacularly so when it's the tank who is the undergeared player. Even if a competent healer can keep the undergeared tank alive, the fully raid-geared DPS spec is going to constantly be on the verge of pulling threat. That's not an issue of skill. It's just numbers. It's also not a problem that is easy to overcome for either the overgeared DPS or the undergeared tank -- it's just not a lot of fun for anyone.
So now what?
Given all of that, and watching how tanking has unfolded in Cataclysm, we've gotten over the concept that threat needs to be a major part of PvE gameplay. We have therefore decided to buff tank threat generation in 4.3 to where it's generally not a major consideration. We expect the community to gradually stop using threat-tracking mods as players realize they don't need them.
It's an important distinction that the concept of "aggro" will still exist. If a DPS spec attacks an add the second it shows up, then the creature is going to come at her. However, if a tank gets an attack or two on a target, then the target should stick to the tank. Worrying about who has the creature's attention should generally only be a concern at the start of a fight or when additional creatures join the battle. Worrying about a warrior or DK (the classes with nearly non-existent threat dumps) creeping up on tank threat after several minutes will almost certainly not be an issue any longer. (And if it is, we'll have to make further adjustments.)
We like abilities like Misdirect. It's fun as a hunter to help the tank control targets. We are less enamored of Cower, which is just an ability used often to suppress threat. We like that the mage might have to use Ice Block, Frost Nova, or even Mirror Image to avoid danger. We don't like the mage having to worry about constantly creeping up on the tank's threat levels. The notion of aggro (who the target is attacking) is a keeper. The notion of threat races (who is about to pull aggro) is going to be downplayed from here on out.
Upcoming changes
Here are the specific changes you're likely to see on the PTR for the next major content patch, 4.3:
- The threat generated by classes in their tanking mode has been increased from three times damage done to five times damage done.
- Vengeance no longer ramps up slowly at the beginning of a fight. Instead, the first melee attack taken generates Vengeance equal to one third of the damage dealt by that attack. As Vengeance updates during the fight, it is always set to at least a third of the damage taken in the last two seconds. It still climbs from that point at the previous rate, still decays at the previous rate, and still cannot exceed the current maximum.
You could argue that once threat is very easy to manage that a warrior tank could just go AFK. In reality, given today's boss encounters, an AFK warrior would end up standing in the wrong place, missing a tank transition, or otherwise do something or fail to do something that wipes the party or raid.
That said, we ultimately don't want tanking to be just standing there soaking boss hits and we would like to have more stats on gear that tanks care about. To solve those challenges, we want to shift more tank mitigation to require active management. We'll still give all the tanks emergency cooldowns like Shield Wall and Survival Instincts. However, we want to move the shorter cooldowns like Shield Block, Holy Shield and Savage Defense so that they work more like Death Strike. Blood DKs have a lot of control over the survivability they get from Death Strike, but as part of that gameplay, they have to actually hit their target. The other three tanks will get similar active defense mechanics. This doesn't mean everyone needs to use the DK model of self-healing, but they can use the DK model of managing resources to maximize survivability.
Death Strike consumes resources to help the tank survive. We toyed at one point with the paladin Holy Shield being a Holy Power consumer and we think we could do so again. Heck we could make Word of Glory the thing you're supposed to do with Holy Power, so long as we balanced all tanks around that idea and didn't feel it infringed too much on the DK mechanic. We could make Shield Block cost rage, and change Protection warrior rage income such that they had to manage rage, the way Fury and Arms warriors now must do. If tanks generated more rage from doing damage and less from taking damage, then hitting a target becomes very important, but for mitigation, not threat management reasons. This is a bigger change than it seems though. We don't want a model where the Prot warrior ignores Shield Slam, Devastate and Revenge (since threat isn't a big deal) in order to bank all rage for Shield Block (because survival is). Imagine a rage model where you always had enough rage for your core rotational abilities (they could be cheap or even generate rage), so that you could funnel most of your rage into Shield Block when survival mattered and Heroic Strike when it did not. Redesigning Savage Defense to make it a rage sink is an even bigger change, but we think there is an opportunity there to make the rotation more interesting for druids (and all tanks really). Their rotation would help them achieve the goal that usually matters the most to tanks: living.
This is the kind of design for which we're really going to need a lot of feedback once it hits the PTR. We can implement and verify empirically how much threat a tank generates, but it's hard for us to replicate the experience of all of the various raiding groups and dungeon parties out there. We invite you to try out the immediate and eventually the long-term changes when they are available on the PTR and then in the live game and let us know how they feel. Do you miss the threat game? Are you bored when tanking now? Conversely, with the changes, is tanking more fun for you? Does this new implementation of Vengeance feel better? Some systems design calls we can make just by processing numbers, and some are more squishy and involve a lot gut checks and wishy-washy "but how does it FEEL?" language. Messing with this kind of thing is definitely somewhere in the middle.
Greg "Ghostcrawler" Street is the lead systems designer for World of Warcraft, and lead eater at the dinner table.
The news is already rolling out for the upcoming WoW Patch 4.2! Preview the new Firelands raid, marvel at the new legendary staff, and get the inside scoop on new quest hubs -- plus new tier 12 armor!
Patch 5.3 interview with Ghostcrawler
Mystery of the Unborn Val'kyr
The latest patch 5.3 news
All of the latest Mists of Pandaria news





Reader Comments (Page 2 of 8)
Giondi Aug 18th 2011 12:29AM
@Minstrel: Yeah, tanking trash has always been the most stressful part of the game for me, too. Especially when the mobs don't start out next to each other or if there's more than one ranged mob to deal with, since most dps aren't willing to just give me three seconds to get and establish threat across the entire pack. I think the most frustrating thing in the game is the one thing that Blizz can't control: it just seems like alot of people don't get that dps and the tank are on the same side, it really isn't a competition to see who can nuke things the hardest, it's about killing the boss.
Hogleg Sep 27th 2011 10:53PM
I actually got so sick of players not understanding threat, I just quit tanking. Seriously, I love it, and I won't do it outside a full guild run anymore.
I actually blame it on damage meter porn and fast leveling against generally impotent mobs. Maybe a few more mobs like the BC heroics that would 2 shot anything but a tank wouldn't be amiss.
I actually don’t get why they don’t simply unto the Survival-of-the-Fittest-for-Everyone change insofar as crit immunity goes. There was a reason leather type gear didn't need a load of hit or exp; nearly everyone wearing it attacked from behind and tanks had SoF so didn't need to stack it. It's not like they totally burned gear with exp on it...it was still useful, but NO leather wearer wanted a pantload.
Plate wearers of every kind benefit from hit and expertise; dps classes can do more dps without the current cat problem of having to stay behind the target ALL the time, and tanks can all parry, and two can shield block, and conveniently, they all rely on hitting their targets. Perhaps Blizzard should be focused on the synergy between offensive and defensive expertise. There is no reason that becoming uncritable through expertise has to benefit ONLY plate tanks.
I hate healing DK tanks...I wouldn't say they are the worst, but they are undoubtably the spikiest. As far as I'm concerned, DK tanks could use a talent to convert expertise to a scaling hp generation on every attack (and the nature of that would mean the more expertise you have, the more valuable it is) or Damage Reduction in lieu of shield block, since I think they are a broken tank anyway. They would make more sense if they inexorably gained health back so they took about the same amount of healing as other tanks. Alternatively, allow DKs to "bank" some overheal, since they are supposed to be undead life stealers anyway.
I do not view the pvp model of "oh dear lord Im gonna die" buttons as fun to tank with, especially when they keep insisting that they want to let the tank concentrate on other things. I instead forsee this change encouraging whichever healer can throughput the most for the longest. It will mark the return of the amazing one button healing pally, as least in spirit.
Piper Aug 16th 2011 12:47PM
I'm happy to see this. I stopped tanking instances with my (under geared) warrior alt because her gear wouldn't let her hold aggro against others main's dps gear. Throttling dps and not feeling like you can do your job as a tank was just frustrating all around. (I know how to tank as my main is a prot paladin in Firelands gear.)
VSUReaper Aug 16th 2011 4:49PM
I have mixed feelings about this: I like the fact that I won't have to worry about threat when I dps, but I dont like the fact that something that used to be remotely challenging just become easier.
When I'm on my warrior and enhance shammy, I'm either backing off so I stop producing threat, spamming wind shear on cd, or I "tank" it. That's not fun, and I try offering suggestions to the tanks as well as to hold off, but it's frustrating to have to hold back.
When I tank, it's a different scenario. I love producing threat like it's nothing. I love the compliments I get from DKs and warriors about the amt of threat Im pumping out: I like distinguishing myself from other tanks, and I'm worried that this change is going to over simplify tanking (short term) and long term screw it over.
As a warrior, I hate not having a reliable self heal unless I get a killing blow, but i dont want another ability added to my bars, and I don't want my shield block to be changed again.
mbison Aug 16th 2011 12:50PM
All I can say is that I like the changes on paper. Will be interesting to see how they play out on the PTR.
Snuzzle Aug 16th 2011 12:50PM
I sincerely hope they do reconsider. Threat was a nightmare in Wrath when no one had to worry about it... DPS regularly did stupid stuff like pull for the tank and expect you to pick it up just because you could. I missed, and welcomed back with open arms, the need to pay attention to one's threat.
I do not welcome the ability to basically "set it and forget it" on threat. Sigh. As a player who plays mostly tanks this is very discouraging to me. I guess I'll wait and see how it plays out, but there's a reason the DK is the only tank I don't play. There's a reason only one tank plays like that. Hint: not everyone enjoys that playstyle.
Matt Aug 16th 2011 1:18PM
You must not tank for extremely well geared ppl then.
On my feral druid (DPS... not tank) I have to slow down my dps and use Cower on CD to stay below every tank I've ever played with. Even those with T12 and epics from the Firelands raid. When there is a hunter or a rogue in the grp I BEG them to use tricks and misdirect on CD.
That said, I DO watch my threat and slow dps. If you don't, you are a bad dps and deserve to die.
And if DPS pull for the tank, let them die, THEN pick up the mobs. DPS are easy to replace via the dungeon finder.
pastimejunkies Aug 16th 2011 2:15PM
I agree,
I played BC, left during Wrath, came back for Cata and have been having a blast on my Warrior tanking. I've never had many issues with threat (even undergeared) and found it to be hectic and fun to worry about threat/survival/postion.
I've since played every tanking class and found each brings their own unique styles. Not a fan of DKs and druid tanking, but love the revamped paladins (and have since leveled an 85 palli). My friend loves druid tanking and hates warriors ... different play styles.
I want to hope they're not going to misstep on this, but it's hard not to see it turning into a generic boiling pot to bring out more people to tank. Only time will tell I guess.
The Dewd Aug 16th 2011 2:41PM
As a Feral Druid, I understand your concern but when I, as dps, have to put and keep cower into my rotation because I'm a 1-2 item level average above my tanks, something else is wrong. It's not "fun" to throttle the dps. Plus, if a dps pulls for you, you can still let them die before you pick up the add.
grollix Aug 16th 2011 2:52PM
@Matt
I totally 100% agree with what you say - a truly good dps can always pull high numbers without pulling threat from the tank, and it's one I constantly remind my dps'ers of from time to time when people die within 30sec of the fight - its just stupid and there is no exception to it.
Granted tanks are supposed to do everything they can do grab aggro, but we can only do so much within the time period of the pull before that melee or that caster dps creeps up on you and takes threat because they are trying to break the dps meters (stupid by the way - come on seriously?) Taunt saves them but not for long if they keep trying to intentionally grab threat (and alot of dps do it on purpose). Not only are you causing your tank to blow CD's to keep your @ss from pulling threat, but when you pull off the tank AGAIN....you deserve to die, and don't deserve a battle rez. Just stay down, so we can finish the fight and win - it's one less tard for the healer to deal with also.
I prefer a smart DPS that does 30k and manages threat than a tard DPS that shoots for 100k and pulls threat and dies - what does that equate to in the end? Overall for the dps that died in the first 5sec of the fight...prob 3-5k tops....which is stupid. Do a stable 25-30k without pulling threat and everyone will be happier, so will your healers and your tanks will love you more as well.
DPS can be stupid at times, but the best DPS can do tops without threat issues - even if its a low geared tank. (Im 372 ilevel btw)
Stability of fight control and smart, smooth efficient kills >>>> ZOMG KILL IT FAST OH NOES I PULLZ THREATZ ZOMG BREZ I NEED TO BREAK MAH METERZ!
So these changes, I welcome them just so my dps can blow $hit up - but I do hate the removal of the "think before you spam attacks" deal - I like smart dps - I hate automatic play.
Thats why I tank on a DK :)
eirinefrostblade Aug 16th 2011 3:36PM
That's the difference between threat and aggro. If the DPS pulls, they have the aggro first. Nothing requires you to pull it off them if they're being stupid. On the other hand, hitting Shadowmeld on cd because that's the only threat-dump my frost DK has is distinctly not-fun, and liable to get me killed if I have to do so in the middle of a movement phase.
As for the active mitigation model of tanking... Well, I guess they don't want you to get bored once you're no longer taunting off that kitty-druid or crit-happy warlock.
Eyhk Aug 16th 2011 5:40PM
Even in Wrath on the LK fight, both on my feral druid and rogue, I'd have to actively hold back on dps/use vanish after my first few finishers just to let the tanks keep up since they were so focused on survival stats and not threat. I welcome not having to do that anymore.
That being said, dps in random heroics can definitely be an ass by pulling when the tank is not ready. If I'm a tank, I usually let them tank and just keep stuff off my healer. If I'm a healer, I'll stop healing that person. If I'm dps, shadowmeld, vanish, feign death, all are quite nice. I suspect a few repair bills every heroic will shut em up.
Snuzzle Aug 16th 2011 6:33PM
You might be right- maybe it isn't "fun" to throttle DPS because you're creeping up on threat. But is it interesting? Does it keep yu engaged? Does it force you, as a DPS, to do more than just hit your biggest buttons whenever you feel like?
It does. That's why I think threat needs to continue being a concern for DPS players.
Healers can no longer dump their biggest heals whenever they wish without running OOM. Currently, a DPS cannot go balls-out immediately without pulling aggro and dying. And a tank cannot barrel headlong into a huge pull without dying (unless he significantly overgears the content). All the roles have limitations. Responsibility is spread nicely.
If this change takes place, it's just shifting more responsibility away from DPS which makes me a bit grumpy. If I'm working my butt off to keep myself alive, and the healer is working his butt off to keep us all alive, I like to think the DPS is doing a bit more than mashing his biggest buttons without a care. Oh sure, he has to interrupt, cc, and move out of fire; but so do we.
It really seems Blizzard wants DPS to be the "carefree" role while tanks and healers have lots of responsibility. In a way I'm ok with that. I tank because I love to lead and I love to be the meatshield for my party.
I guess what I'm saying is, I'm all for this change if it's what needs to happen to making tanking and DPSing fun and engaging. Currently it's really not. Once I get everything rounded up... I sit there bored till the nxt pull (unless I'm tanking for a dps dk or warrior). It just seems like more of the same: give more responsibility to the tank so the DPS don't have anything to detract from their "fun."
Having to actively manage threat as a tank is fun for me. Trying to stay above the DPS as I watch them creep up on me. Spamming more mitigation cooldowns as they come up.... isn't.
Flaminturkey Aug 16th 2011 7:08PM
You know, I missed threat mattering at the end of Wrath. But what I've realized as random heroics turned into unbearable failfests with pug DPS who would rather whine about the tank than take responsibility, is that for the random dungeon finder to work, threat needs to be a non-issue. DPS need to be able to murder mobs as fast as possible, because for many people (myself included), it's not viable to spend an hour in a random heroic every day. I like being challenged a bit more than the end of Wrath (gear escalation was the reason for that), but I and many others just don't find the current model to be that much fun anymore. There will always be bad players, and there will always be jerks. The RDF is still better for heroics than the old method of waiting in trade chat for hours for that last DPS or a healer or whathaveyou. At least in Wrath, you could work around the bad players and jerks 99% of the time. In Cata, you can only work around those people if the tank and healer massively outgear the DPS, which is generally only the case if those players don't really need the emblems anyway.
theanorak Aug 17th 2011 9:18AM
There it is.
One of the "big changes" in the Cataclysm expansion, particularly vs. the *end* of Wrath, was a certain equalisation of responsibility. Healers would have limited resources, so it would be up to everyone (but especially DPS players) to minimise the amount of damage they took, and to use their self-healing capabilities to assist. Most DPS classes (esp. all melee) were given the option of having a reasonably short-cooldown interrupt, so they could take responsibility for a big chunk of that. Vengeance meant that (generally speaking) tanks with aggro could keep aggro, but that all other players in a group would have to manage their threat at the *start* of the fight, and focus on single-target rather than AoE attacks. All of these things were especially noticable in 5man dungeons
Evidently this wasn't seen as successful, and so it's gradually being reversed. Guaranteeing that interrupt will hit (independently of hit/exp) means tanks can be fully responsible for the majority of important interrupting. Overgeared healers have once again made self-healing relatively unimportant in 5s (although standing in egregious bad will probably still mean death unless your healer has a crush on you). With the threat change (and especially once the vengeance snap-threat change is patched in), it seems likely that threat reduction will be an issue only for the most mighty of DPSers and/or the most stupid.
It's a change which I think is aimed solely at pickup groups, and 5man groups in particular. The people who want "harder" content are generally raiders, and past a certain point running 5s becomes a VP-acquisition task and little more. Making that quicker/easier isn't likely to see all that many complaints. The time taken to run heroics will probably decrease across the board, pleasing people with limited playtime. It'll make tanking and healing easier -- fewer DPS with aggro generally means easier healing, after all. People who have struggled with tanking/healing may be willing to try again.
Much like the change to CC, I think this will be endlessly discussed but ultimately quickly accepted.
Kaylin Aug 16th 2011 12:50PM
I assume they have a schedule for posting their news, and it was an error that it got autoposted early. I presume it'll be back up soon(tm) ie when they're ready.
thepiratester Aug 16th 2011 12:50PM
They are looking at it wrong!! All they need to do is buff the hell out of healers to have the power to heal mages & rogues when they tank :D
100x epicness per healing class & let everyone tank :D
Shinae Aug 16th 2011 12:58PM
You're funny. :D
jealouspirate Aug 16th 2011 12:51PM
I'm sure there'll be scream of 'catering to casuals' and 'dumbing down content', but I think these are great ideas. It's actually gotten me interested in running dungeons again, and I haven't done that in months.
Hal Aug 16th 2011 12:52PM
. . . Wow. That's an interesting shift in design philosophy. Even more curious is the reason behind taking it down. I wonder what's happening behind the scenes.