Dev Watercooler: Ghostcrawler discusses massive changes to threat

Ghostcrawler addresses the biggest point with the most passion -- threat isn't fun. It never has been, and threat stats aren't fun to balance. Personally, as a tank, the most contempt and frustration I have for World of Warcraft comes from my inability to control DPSers who can't stop pressing their buttons for a second. It's just not fun to get mad at unskilled players. Ghostcrawler wants interaction between new and experienced players to be positive, and when DPSers blame undergeared or new tanks for threat issues when they have successfully beaten Ragnaros to a pulp and taken his gear, it doesn't make for a positive experience.
With patch 4.3, threat is going to become largely a non-issue. Threat is being increased to five times damage, up from three times damage. Each tank will be given new active defense cooldowns, much like death knight's Death Strike. Warriors, it seems, will be getting the biggest redesign of the bunch, with rage causing a big problem with how warriors need to spend resources to maximize survivability. DPSers will largely be unaffected and will, in fact, have less time when they have to stop attacking or stop their rotations, because threat will be less of an issue.
Check out the full blog post for more information on the huge changes coming to threat in patch 4.3. There is a lot coming in the future, and we will be testing this stuff heavily on the PTR and have more information when it becomes available.

Threat revisited
One of the fun things about working on an MMO is that the game design will evolve over time, and you have the opportunity to make changes to reflect those design shifts. (And yes, we know that it can sometimes evolve too quickly).
Back in December, I wrote a blog about our vision for how threat should work. Since then, the game and the community have continued to progress and the designers have found ourselves changing our minds about the role of threat.
Why have threat?
Threat's role, just so we're all on the same page, is to make fights more interesting. Tanks spend a lot of effort staying alive, but they aren't under immediate threat of death one-hundred percent of the time. Plus, their staying alive is also dependent on their healers and other external cooldowns. We have always been concerned that if threat was not a big part of tanking gameplay that tanks might get bored just waiting around until it was time to use a cooldown. Likewise, if DPS and healers had no risk of being attacked themselves then the sense of danger facing a powerful creature could erode. Furthermore, every character's toolbox includes some cool survival and utility abilities and the game feels more shallow if those are exclusively used for PvP. It's fun for a mage to Frost Nova an attacker and Blink away. It's fun for a hunter to Feign Death. Yes your life would be a lot easier without threat mechanics, but our goal isn't to make fights as easy as possible. Our job is to make fights fun. Having too much to manage might not be fun, but it's also not fun to be bored.
That's been our traditional argument for threat needing to matter. Here is the case against it:
Why not have threat?
Throttling
Threat stats aren't fun
We don't need a more complex UI
So now what?
Given all of that, and watching how tanking has unfolded in Cataclysm, we've gotten over the concept that threat needs to be a major part of PvE gameplay. We have therefore decided to buff tank threat generation in 4.3 to where it's generally not a major consideration. We expect the community to gradually stop using threat-tracking mods as players realize they don't need them.
It's an important distinction that the concept of "aggro" will still exist. If a DPS spec attacks an add the second it shows up, then the creature is going to come at her. However, if a tank gets an attack or two on a target, then the target should stick to the tank. Worrying about who has the creature's attention should generally only be a concern at the start of a fight or when additional creatures join the battle. Worrying about a warrior or DK (the classes with nearly non-existent threat dumps) creeping up on tank threat after several minutes will almost certainly not be an issue any longer. (And if it is, we'll have to make further adjustments.)
We like abilities like Misdirect. It's fun as a hunter to help the tank control targets. We are less enamored of Cower, which is just an ability used often to suppress threat. We like that the mage might have to use Ice Block, Frost Nova, or even Mirror Image to avoid danger. We don't like the mage having to worry about constantly creeping up on the tank's threat levels. The notion of aggro (who the target is attacking) is a keeper. The notion of threat races (who is about to pull aggro) is going to be downplayed from here on out.
Upcoming changes
Here are the specific changes you're likely to see on the PTR for the next major content patch, 4.3:
You could argue that once threat is very easy to manage that a warrior tank could just go AFK. In reality, given today's boss encounters, an AFK warrior would end up standing in the wrong place, missing a tank transition, or otherwise do something or fail to do something that wipes the party or raid.
That said, we ultimately don't want tanking to be just standing there soaking boss hits and we would like to have more stats on gear that tanks care about. To solve those challenges, we want to shift more tank mitigation to require active management. We'll still give all the tanks emergency cooldowns like Shield Wall and Survival Instincts. However, we want to move the shorter cooldowns like Shield Block, Holy Shield and Savage Defense so that they work more like Death Strike. Blood DKs have a lot of control over the survivability they get from Death Strike, but as part of that gameplay, they have to actually hit their target. The other three tanks will get similar active defense mechanics. This doesn't mean everyone needs to use the DK model of self-healing, but they can use the DK model of managing resources to maximize survivability.
Death Strike consumes resources to help the tank survive. We toyed at one point with the paladin Holy Shield being a Holy Power consumer and we think we could do so again. Heck we could make Word of Glory the thing you're supposed to do with Holy Power, so long as we balanced all tanks around that idea and didn't feel it infringed too much on the DK mechanic. We could make Shield Block cost rage, and change Protection warrior rage income such that they had to manage rage, the way Fury and Arms warriors now must do. If tanks generated more rage from doing damage and less from taking damage, then hitting a target becomes very important, but for mitigation, not threat management reasons. This is a bigger change than it seems though. We don't want a model where the Prot warrior ignores Shield Slam, Devastate and Revenge (since threat isn't a big deal) in order to bank all rage for Shield Block (because survival is). Imagine a rage model where you always had enough rage for your core rotational abilities (they could be cheap or even generate rage), so that you could funnel most of your rage into Shield Block when survival mattered and Heroic Strike when it did not. Redesigning Savage Defense to make it a rage sink is an even bigger change, but we think there is an opportunity there to make the rotation more interesting for druids (and all tanks really). Their rotation would help them achieve the goal that usually matters the most to tanks: living.
This is the kind of design for which we're really going to need a lot of feedback once it hits the PTR. We can implement and verify empirically how much threat a tank generates, but it's hard for us to replicate the experience of all of the various raiding groups and dungeon parties out there. We invite you to try out the immediate and eventually the long-term changes when they are available on the PTR and then in the live game and let us know how they feel. Do you miss the threat game? Are you bored when tanking now? Conversely, with the changes, is tanking more fun for you? Does this new implementation of Vengeance feel better? Some systems design calls we can make just by processing numbers, and some are more squishy and involve a lot gut checks and wishy-washy "but how does it FEEL?" language. Messing with this kind of thing is definitely somewhere in the middle.
Greg "Ghostcrawler" Street is the lead systems designer for World of Warcraft, and lead eater at the dinner table.
One of the fun things about working on an MMO is that the game design will evolve over time, and you have the opportunity to make changes to reflect those design shifts. (And yes, we know that it can sometimes evolve too quickly).
Back in December, I wrote a blog about our vision for how threat should work. Since then, the game and the community have continued to progress and the designers have found ourselves changing our minds about the role of threat.
Why have threat?
Threat's role, just so we're all on the same page, is to make fights more interesting. Tanks spend a lot of effort staying alive, but they aren't under immediate threat of death one-hundred percent of the time. Plus, their staying alive is also dependent on their healers and other external cooldowns. We have always been concerned that if threat was not a big part of tanking gameplay that tanks might get bored just waiting around until it was time to use a cooldown. Likewise, if DPS and healers had no risk of being attacked themselves then the sense of danger facing a powerful creature could erode. Furthermore, every character's toolbox includes some cool survival and utility abilities and the game feels more shallow if those are exclusively used for PvP. It's fun for a mage to Frost Nova an attacker and Blink away. It's fun for a hunter to Feign Death. Yes your life would be a lot easier without threat mechanics, but our goal isn't to make fights as easy as possible. Our job is to make fights fun. Having too much to manage might not be fun, but it's also not fun to be bored.
That's been our traditional argument for threat needing to matter. Here is the case against it:
Why not have threat?
Throttling
- As I said in the previous blog, it's not fun to feel throttled. It's not fun for the Feral druid to stop using special attacks in order to avoid pulling aggro. It's fun to use Feint at the right time to avoid dying, but it's not fun for Feint to be part of your rotational cooldown. We want you to spend most of your effort trying to overcome the dragon or elemental, not struggling against your own tank.
- I'd also argue that our encounters aren't really boring these days. We ask tanks to do a lot -- everything from picking up adds, to moving bosses around, to staying out of fires, to providing interrupts, in addition to the classic tank roles of staying alive and generating threat.
Threat stats aren't fun
- We put threat stats (hit and expertise for the most part) on tanking gear, because without those, tanks would be limited to choosing from among mastery, dodge, and parry. (In the current state of itemization, you are rarely choosing more Strength, Agility, Stamina, or armor.) Druids can't parry, and even for the plate users, there is a tight relationship between dodge and parry, and even mastery for the warrior and paladin. That gets us dangerously close to the old model of stacking a single uber stat (like Stamina or defense), which makes gearing choices too simplistic for tanks. Did something drop? Okay, put it on. (Contrast this to a DPS caster who might want more or less hit or might favor haste over crit, etc.)
- We want threat stats to be interesting, but the reality is that they aren't. Any decent tank will usually choose survivability stats over threat stats. Back in the day when taunts and interrupts could miss, you could argue hit was marginally useful. But in a world where hit is really just for generating threat, it isn't very exciting and tanks get understandably emo when we put too much on their gear. (DKs are somewhat of an exception in a good way -- more on that in a sec.) We do see some players try and get excited about threat stats or even proud of their ability to generate threat, but overall we feel like threat stats are a trap, and it's usually the case that improving your survivability will have a better net impact on your group's progression.
We don't need a more complex UI
- We have threatened for years (see what I did there?) to build in some kind of threat tracking tool into WoW. But is that really good for the game? Do we really need yet another UI element for players to look at instead of looking at the actual game world? We know many raiders in particular use third-party threat mods today, but that has really been borne out of necessity rather than a sense that watching threat is super compelling gameplay. (When we say "super compelling gameplay" you can mentally replace that with "fun.")
- I know this bullet will be a point made by players critical of this change, but I would feel remiss in not bringing it up. We want it to be a positive experience when Dungeon Finder matches experienced players with newer players. The skill and gear of the former can help make up for that of the latter. Who better to teach you boss mechanics than players who have done the fights before? Even better, the gear of a veteran tank can make up for the less powerful gear of a beginning healer (which doesn't necessarily mean a noob -- it could be the alt of a very experienced raider).
- However, this system fails and often spectacularly so when it's the tank who is the undergeared player. Even if a competent healer can keep the undergeared tank alive, the fully raid-geared DPS spec is going to constantly be on the verge of pulling threat. That's not an issue of skill. It's just numbers. It's also not a problem that is easy to overcome for either the overgeared DPS or the undergeared tank -- it's just not a lot of fun for anyone.
So now what?
Given all of that, and watching how tanking has unfolded in Cataclysm, we've gotten over the concept that threat needs to be a major part of PvE gameplay. We have therefore decided to buff tank threat generation in 4.3 to where it's generally not a major consideration. We expect the community to gradually stop using threat-tracking mods as players realize they don't need them.
It's an important distinction that the concept of "aggro" will still exist. If a DPS spec attacks an add the second it shows up, then the creature is going to come at her. However, if a tank gets an attack or two on a target, then the target should stick to the tank. Worrying about who has the creature's attention should generally only be a concern at the start of a fight or when additional creatures join the battle. Worrying about a warrior or DK (the classes with nearly non-existent threat dumps) creeping up on tank threat after several minutes will almost certainly not be an issue any longer. (And if it is, we'll have to make further adjustments.)
We like abilities like Misdirect. It's fun as a hunter to help the tank control targets. We are less enamored of Cower, which is just an ability used often to suppress threat. We like that the mage might have to use Ice Block, Frost Nova, or even Mirror Image to avoid danger. We don't like the mage having to worry about constantly creeping up on the tank's threat levels. The notion of aggro (who the target is attacking) is a keeper. The notion of threat races (who is about to pull aggro) is going to be downplayed from here on out.
Upcoming changes
Here are the specific changes you're likely to see on the PTR for the next major content patch, 4.3:
- The threat generated by classes in their tanking mode has been increased from three times damage done to five times damage done.
- Vengeance no longer ramps up slowly at the beginning of a fight. Instead, the first melee attack taken generates Vengeance equal to one third of the damage dealt by that attack. As Vengeance updates during the fight, it is always set to at least a third of the damage taken in the last two seconds. It still climbs from that point at the previous rate, still decays at the previous rate, and still cannot exceed the current maximum.
You could argue that once threat is very easy to manage that a warrior tank could just go AFK. In reality, given today's boss encounters, an AFK warrior would end up standing in the wrong place, missing a tank transition, or otherwise do something or fail to do something that wipes the party or raid.
That said, we ultimately don't want tanking to be just standing there soaking boss hits and we would like to have more stats on gear that tanks care about. To solve those challenges, we want to shift more tank mitigation to require active management. We'll still give all the tanks emergency cooldowns like Shield Wall and Survival Instincts. However, we want to move the shorter cooldowns like Shield Block, Holy Shield and Savage Defense so that they work more like Death Strike. Blood DKs have a lot of control over the survivability they get from Death Strike, but as part of that gameplay, they have to actually hit their target. The other three tanks will get similar active defense mechanics. This doesn't mean everyone needs to use the DK model of self-healing, but they can use the DK model of managing resources to maximize survivability.
Death Strike consumes resources to help the tank survive. We toyed at one point with the paladin Holy Shield being a Holy Power consumer and we think we could do so again. Heck we could make Word of Glory the thing you're supposed to do with Holy Power, so long as we balanced all tanks around that idea and didn't feel it infringed too much on the DK mechanic. We could make Shield Block cost rage, and change Protection warrior rage income such that they had to manage rage, the way Fury and Arms warriors now must do. If tanks generated more rage from doing damage and less from taking damage, then hitting a target becomes very important, but for mitigation, not threat management reasons. This is a bigger change than it seems though. We don't want a model where the Prot warrior ignores Shield Slam, Devastate and Revenge (since threat isn't a big deal) in order to bank all rage for Shield Block (because survival is). Imagine a rage model where you always had enough rage for your core rotational abilities (they could be cheap or even generate rage), so that you could funnel most of your rage into Shield Block when survival mattered and Heroic Strike when it did not. Redesigning Savage Defense to make it a rage sink is an even bigger change, but we think there is an opportunity there to make the rotation more interesting for druids (and all tanks really). Their rotation would help them achieve the goal that usually matters the most to tanks: living.
This is the kind of design for which we're really going to need a lot of feedback once it hits the PTR. We can implement and verify empirically how much threat a tank generates, but it's hard for us to replicate the experience of all of the various raiding groups and dungeon parties out there. We invite you to try out the immediate and eventually the long-term changes when they are available on the PTR and then in the live game and let us know how they feel. Do you miss the threat game? Are you bored when tanking now? Conversely, with the changes, is tanking more fun for you? Does this new implementation of Vengeance feel better? Some systems design calls we can make just by processing numbers, and some are more squishy and involve a lot gut checks and wishy-washy "but how does it FEEL?" language. Messing with this kind of thing is definitely somewhere in the middle.
Greg "Ghostcrawler" Street is the lead systems designer for World of Warcraft, and lead eater at the dinner table.
The news is already rolling out for the upcoming WoW Patch 4.2! Preview the new Firelands raid, marvel at the new legendary staff, and get the inside scoop on new quest hubs -- plus new tier 12 armor!
Patch 5.3 interview with Ghostcrawler
Mystery of the Unborn Val'kyr
The latest patch 5.3 news
All of the latest Mists of Pandaria news





Reader Comments (Page 3 of 8)
Parrin Aug 16th 2011 1:43PM
There’s no way to know exactly what caused this, but we can make some pretty good guesses.
They made some major changes by: increasing the XP bonus from 60-80 on the Recruit a Friend promotion, giving away what many consider to be their most popular expansion, and adding a bonus bag for tanks in random dungeons. These changes weren’t made without plenty of statistical predictions for how it would improve their bottom line.
I’m guessing that the effects weren’t as great an improvement as they had expected.
Bonasus Aug 16th 2011 5:14PM
Next logical step for patch 4.4: Featuring the threat model of Battleheart: Mobs automatically hit the player with the most armor in melee range.
Don't know how this works for ranged mobs...
Darky Aug 16th 2011 12:53PM
The main reason I stopped playing my DK tank was because I had to really fight to stay alive as well as hold threat, with this change I may start tanking with him again.
Moeru Aug 16th 2011 12:54PM
I agree with this but I think a simply giving tanks a buff on hit/exp would have been easier than this and keep it more or less the same.
As such, I don't want to have to press more buttons at the right time when I'm already moving around grabbing adds or trying to not stand in fire, but I'll adjust.
Drakkenfyre Aug 16th 2011 12:56PM
At the baseline, you won't have to. Threat per damage is going from 3X to 5X. So just by doing your normal rotation you will be doing more threat.
Moeru Aug 16th 2011 12:58PM
It's more an issue of survivability. With the model they're proposing they want to add more surv. cooldowns that, I assume, we'll have to hit at high-damage times. This will just add, to me, more complexity if I'm trying to kite, move out of fire, or gather adds.
Sunaseni Aug 16th 2011 1:10PM
See, but they balance it by taking out the complexity of having to hold threat. If you notice, very few temporary boss damage buffs are accompanied by a fire or need to move. Looking at Firelands, Shannox doesn't have a damage buff, just the trap, Beth'tilac doesn't buff herself when you need to move (say from meteors upstairs), you don't need to move at all for Baleroc, etc. Rhyolith is an exception, but then again it's a pretty chaotic fight in general and the big add doesn't start off difficult and only starts hitting hard if DPS is slow.
Going back to T11, only Cho'Gall, Nefarian, and Al'Akir have times where you potentially have to move during a high damage attack. (Flame's Orders, Electrocute during Onyxia's sparks, and dodging Al'Akir's tornados respectively.) But they are end bosses so they are supposed to be a tad more challenging. All in all, trust Blizzard's design that high-damage attacks are generally when you can plunker down and fight to survive, while low-damage times are generally when you have to move out of crap.
radda Aug 16th 2011 12:56PM
"Bad players are bad, so instead of educating them in how to achieve and hold threat we're just going to make it a non-issue."
Sigh. I don't see why Blizz can't build tutorials to teach people how to play their class correctly. Those of us that know how to figure things out can just skip them, while those that can't be arsed to discover how everything fits together can have their hand held until they figure it out.
Maybe in another year or two there won't be a whole suite of heals for every class, but one button! PRESS THIS TO HEAL! PRESS THIS TO HURT THINGS! Oh well.
matt Aug 16th 2011 1:26PM
no tutorial can gear your alt tank up, the only way to do that is to run heroic dungeons and raids. When you are doing that it will be nice for the dps not to have to pull there hair out (or just be bad and pull aggro). It will be nice for the hypothetical alt-tank to be able to focus on the job he/she will be doing once geared: managing survival and positioning. Do you really worry about threat when you are raiding with your main raid group? no those tanks have the gear to match the dmg dealers and it is not an issue.
I for one am on board with all of this threat mgmt is tuned for players in like gear, as soon as there is some unbalance tanking is NOT fun. Well, I suppose if you like tension headaches from clenching your jaw trying to hold mobs of much better geared players than it was fun. If that was your idea of fun, I suppose it is time to move on, WoW is eliminating that type of "fun".
Alurius Aug 16th 2011 1:34PM
Except that on my brand new tank, I am guarenteed to lose threat if I miss a few times in a row in a 346 Heroic; especially if I have remotely good DPS with me. The Dungeon Finder buff included for threat, people still easily lose threat because of the inflation of DPS. So what does that do when I'm in a raid environment?
And on my 21k DPS Rogue, it'll be nice to see the Paladin tank I do raids with not have to pop Wings in order to establish threat.
Can't make a tutorial to fix tank threat when its still low enough for experienced raiders to have trouble.
Scott Clark Aug 16th 2011 1:34PM
If you read the post again, you'll find that your question (why Blizzard doesn't build tutorials to educate players on proper threat management) has already been answered:
The current threat system isn't fun.
As unfun as the current system is, how much worse would it be to have to go to school to learn the unfun system before you could use it? Why would Blizzard spend resources developing an unfun training module for an unfun system, when they could spend those resources on making the system fun?
Remember, developing a more compelling gameplay mechanic doesn't change the fact that for months or years, you understood the system and differentiated yourself as a good player because of it. You will still be able to differentiate yourself from lesser players in the future. Complaining that all players should continue to languish under an unfun mechanic just because that's the way it's always been, is just cognitive dissonance.
For the record, "cognitive dissonance" is never a good reason to maintain the status quo.
jtrack3d Aug 16th 2011 1:35PM
You can see what the punchline is. They are shoring up LFD finder. Many tweaks they make are just to try and make LFD work. As it is, tanks won't do them because undergeared tanks can't hold aggro off overgeared DPS... voila... fixed... more tanks in PuGs.
Otherwise, they can't use the mixing model of experience because low geared tanks could only tank for low geared heals and dps... no experience in the group.
Sorry, I read the hidden message of LFD is here to stay whether it's good for WoW as a SOCIAL game or not... that's what I find sad.
Bynde Aug 16th 2011 4:20PM
"Maybe in another year or two there won't be a whole suite of heals for every class, but one button! PRESS THIS TO HEAL! PRESS THIS TO HURT THINGS! Oh well."
lol, now that's funny.
TheObvious Aug 16th 2011 5:17PM
They do. It's called "Leveling from 1 to 85". Its a pretty damn long tutorial BTW, and as long as you at least dungeon from 16 or so on up...you will either get the hang of it or go down in flames. But 1-85 should be WELL enough time to learn your toon and role in a fight...not to mention guilds. Thats the great thing about the WOW gaming community is that save for a few elitist jerks, most experienced players are willing to teach you so long as you arent a complete idiot and actually do what they suggest.
Shinae Aug 16th 2011 12:56PM
As GC said, it will certainly have an effect on the Dungeon Finder.
Maybe more people will be willing to tank if they know that they won't be struggling so hard for threat against better-geared DPS. It may mean that tanks won't be getting the Call to Arms bonus so often.
Oakraven Aug 16th 2011 12:59PM
"Enough that we’re planning to apply a hotfix this week to change how threat works"
and
"Here are the specific changes you’re likely to see: •Hotfix: The threat generated by classes in their tanking mode has been increased from three times damage done to five times damage done. •In an upcoming patch: Vengeance no longer ramps up slowly at the beginning of a fight. Instead, the first melee attack taken generates Vengeance equal to one third of the damage dealt by that attack. As Vengeance updates during the fight, it is always set to at least a third of the damage taken in the last two seconds. It still climbs from that point at the previous rate, still decays at the previous rate, and still cannot exceed the current maximum."
were added.
you need to replace your post. it sounded like all the changes were coming in amonth or so, not tonight.
they need to
Zankoku Aug 16th 2011 1:00PM
Vengeance change good, auto threat bad. Predicting movement heavy bosses in 4.3, which hurt melee dps more than anything.
(cutaia) Aug 16th 2011 1:00PM
I feel like maybe they're shifting a little bit too much to the opposite end of the spectrum here. I can say for certain that threat in it's current state isn't very fun for me. Basically every 5-man entails me constantly losing threat in every AoE scenario. I've even lose threat occasionally on bosses when there's no reason I should...popping Inquisition/Wings and going on a high threat rotation, I still sometimes have to taunt them off of someone.
But do I think my threat shouldn't be a potential issue at all? Not sure about that.
Zankoku Aug 16th 2011 1:06PM
Losing threat when your not supposed to (and using high threat rotation) sounds like a gear difference more than anything. Or your DPS in in the middle of their CD/Burn phase.
The faster stacking Vengeance should help with that, but the auto-threat? Feeling the return of 3.4 5mans (ohai! ima fury war/ret pally/cat, and i'm your tank today!!)
(cutaia) Aug 16th 2011 1:10PM
"Losing threat when your not supposed to (and using high threat rotation) sounds like a gear difference more than anything."
I think it comes along with people using high damage rotations in addition to 3 stacks of Luck of the Draw, my complete eschewing of hit/expertise, and a little bit of RNG. This boss pulling occurs less often than the AoE scenarios, but really shouldn't happen at all with the gear I have.