Dev Watercooler: Ghostcrawler discusses massive changes to threat

Ghostcrawler addresses the biggest point with the most passion -- threat isn't fun. It never has been, and threat stats aren't fun to balance. Personally, as a tank, the most contempt and frustration I have for World of Warcraft comes from my inability to control DPSers who can't stop pressing their buttons for a second. It's just not fun to get mad at unskilled players. Ghostcrawler wants interaction between new and experienced players to be positive, and when DPSers blame undergeared or new tanks for threat issues when they have successfully beaten Ragnaros to a pulp and taken his gear, it doesn't make for a positive experience.
With patch 4.3, threat is going to become largely a non-issue. Threat is being increased to five times damage, up from three times damage. Each tank will be given new active defense cooldowns, much like death knight's Death Strike. Warriors, it seems, will be getting the biggest redesign of the bunch, with rage causing a big problem with how warriors need to spend resources to maximize survivability. DPSers will largely be unaffected and will, in fact, have less time when they have to stop attacking or stop their rotations, because threat will be less of an issue.
Check out the full blog post for more information on the huge changes coming to threat in patch 4.3. There is a lot coming in the future, and we will be testing this stuff heavily on the PTR and have more information when it becomes available.

Threat revisited
One of the fun things about working on an MMO is that the game design will evolve over time, and you have the opportunity to make changes to reflect those design shifts. (And yes, we know that it can sometimes evolve too quickly).
Back in December, I wrote a blog about our vision for how threat should work. Since then, the game and the community have continued to progress and the designers have found ourselves changing our minds about the role of threat.
Why have threat?
Threat's role, just so we're all on the same page, is to make fights more interesting. Tanks spend a lot of effort staying alive, but they aren't under immediate threat of death one-hundred percent of the time. Plus, their staying alive is also dependent on their healers and other external cooldowns. We have always been concerned that if threat was not a big part of tanking gameplay that tanks might get bored just waiting around until it was time to use a cooldown. Likewise, if DPS and healers had no risk of being attacked themselves then the sense of danger facing a powerful creature could erode. Furthermore, every character's toolbox includes some cool survival and utility abilities and the game feels more shallow if those are exclusively used for PvP. It's fun for a mage to Frost Nova an attacker and Blink away. It's fun for a hunter to Feign Death. Yes your life would be a lot easier without threat mechanics, but our goal isn't to make fights as easy as possible. Our job is to make fights fun. Having too much to manage might not be fun, but it's also not fun to be bored.
That's been our traditional argument for threat needing to matter. Here is the case against it:
Why not have threat?
Throttling
Threat stats aren't fun
We don't need a more complex UI
So now what?
Given all of that, and watching how tanking has unfolded in Cataclysm, we've gotten over the concept that threat needs to be a major part of PvE gameplay. We have therefore decided to buff tank threat generation in 4.3 to where it's generally not a major consideration. We expect the community to gradually stop using threat-tracking mods as players realize they don't need them.
It's an important distinction that the concept of "aggro" will still exist. If a DPS spec attacks an add the second it shows up, then the creature is going to come at her. However, if a tank gets an attack or two on a target, then the target should stick to the tank. Worrying about who has the creature's attention should generally only be a concern at the start of a fight or when additional creatures join the battle. Worrying about a warrior or DK (the classes with nearly non-existent threat dumps) creeping up on tank threat after several minutes will almost certainly not be an issue any longer. (And if it is, we'll have to make further adjustments.)
We like abilities like Misdirect. It's fun as a hunter to help the tank control targets. We are less enamored of Cower, which is just an ability used often to suppress threat. We like that the mage might have to use Ice Block, Frost Nova, or even Mirror Image to avoid danger. We don't like the mage having to worry about constantly creeping up on the tank's threat levels. The notion of aggro (who the target is attacking) is a keeper. The notion of threat races (who is about to pull aggro) is going to be downplayed from here on out.
Upcoming changes
Here are the specific changes you're likely to see on the PTR for the next major content patch, 4.3:
You could argue that once threat is very easy to manage that a warrior tank could just go AFK. In reality, given today's boss encounters, an AFK warrior would end up standing in the wrong place, missing a tank transition, or otherwise do something or fail to do something that wipes the party or raid.
That said, we ultimately don't want tanking to be just standing there soaking boss hits and we would like to have more stats on gear that tanks care about. To solve those challenges, we want to shift more tank mitigation to require active management. We'll still give all the tanks emergency cooldowns like Shield Wall and Survival Instincts. However, we want to move the shorter cooldowns like Shield Block, Holy Shield and Savage Defense so that they work more like Death Strike. Blood DKs have a lot of control over the survivability they get from Death Strike, but as part of that gameplay, they have to actually hit their target. The other three tanks will get similar active defense mechanics. This doesn't mean everyone needs to use the DK model of self-healing, but they can use the DK model of managing resources to maximize survivability.
Death Strike consumes resources to help the tank survive. We toyed at one point with the paladin Holy Shield being a Holy Power consumer and we think we could do so again. Heck we could make Word of Glory the thing you're supposed to do with Holy Power, so long as we balanced all tanks around that idea and didn't feel it infringed too much on the DK mechanic. We could make Shield Block cost rage, and change Protection warrior rage income such that they had to manage rage, the way Fury and Arms warriors now must do. If tanks generated more rage from doing damage and less from taking damage, then hitting a target becomes very important, but for mitigation, not threat management reasons. This is a bigger change than it seems though. We don't want a model where the Prot warrior ignores Shield Slam, Devastate and Revenge (since threat isn't a big deal) in order to bank all rage for Shield Block (because survival is). Imagine a rage model where you always had enough rage for your core rotational abilities (they could be cheap or even generate rage), so that you could funnel most of your rage into Shield Block when survival mattered and Heroic Strike when it did not. Redesigning Savage Defense to make it a rage sink is an even bigger change, but we think there is an opportunity there to make the rotation more interesting for druids (and all tanks really). Their rotation would help them achieve the goal that usually matters the most to tanks: living.
This is the kind of design for which we're really going to need a lot of feedback once it hits the PTR. We can implement and verify empirically how much threat a tank generates, but it's hard for us to replicate the experience of all of the various raiding groups and dungeon parties out there. We invite you to try out the immediate and eventually the long-term changes when they are available on the PTR and then in the live game and let us know how they feel. Do you miss the threat game? Are you bored when tanking now? Conversely, with the changes, is tanking more fun for you? Does this new implementation of Vengeance feel better? Some systems design calls we can make just by processing numbers, and some are more squishy and involve a lot gut checks and wishy-washy "but how does it FEEL?" language. Messing with this kind of thing is definitely somewhere in the middle.
Greg "Ghostcrawler" Street is the lead systems designer for World of Warcraft, and lead eater at the dinner table.
One of the fun things about working on an MMO is that the game design will evolve over time, and you have the opportunity to make changes to reflect those design shifts. (And yes, we know that it can sometimes evolve too quickly).
Back in December, I wrote a blog about our vision for how threat should work. Since then, the game and the community have continued to progress and the designers have found ourselves changing our minds about the role of threat.
Why have threat?
Threat's role, just so we're all on the same page, is to make fights more interesting. Tanks spend a lot of effort staying alive, but they aren't under immediate threat of death one-hundred percent of the time. Plus, their staying alive is also dependent on their healers and other external cooldowns. We have always been concerned that if threat was not a big part of tanking gameplay that tanks might get bored just waiting around until it was time to use a cooldown. Likewise, if DPS and healers had no risk of being attacked themselves then the sense of danger facing a powerful creature could erode. Furthermore, every character's toolbox includes some cool survival and utility abilities and the game feels more shallow if those are exclusively used for PvP. It's fun for a mage to Frost Nova an attacker and Blink away. It's fun for a hunter to Feign Death. Yes your life would be a lot easier without threat mechanics, but our goal isn't to make fights as easy as possible. Our job is to make fights fun. Having too much to manage might not be fun, but it's also not fun to be bored.
That's been our traditional argument for threat needing to matter. Here is the case against it:
Why not have threat?
Throttling
- As I said in the previous blog, it's not fun to feel throttled. It's not fun for the Feral druid to stop using special attacks in order to avoid pulling aggro. It's fun to use Feint at the right time to avoid dying, but it's not fun for Feint to be part of your rotational cooldown. We want you to spend most of your effort trying to overcome the dragon or elemental, not struggling against your own tank.
- I'd also argue that our encounters aren't really boring these days. We ask tanks to do a lot -- everything from picking up adds, to moving bosses around, to staying out of fires, to providing interrupts, in addition to the classic tank roles of staying alive and generating threat.
Threat stats aren't fun
- We put threat stats (hit and expertise for the most part) on tanking gear, because without those, tanks would be limited to choosing from among mastery, dodge, and parry. (In the current state of itemization, you are rarely choosing more Strength, Agility, Stamina, or armor.) Druids can't parry, and even for the plate users, there is a tight relationship between dodge and parry, and even mastery for the warrior and paladin. That gets us dangerously close to the old model of stacking a single uber stat (like Stamina or defense), which makes gearing choices too simplistic for tanks. Did something drop? Okay, put it on. (Contrast this to a DPS caster who might want more or less hit or might favor haste over crit, etc.)
- We want threat stats to be interesting, but the reality is that they aren't. Any decent tank will usually choose survivability stats over threat stats. Back in the day when taunts and interrupts could miss, you could argue hit was marginally useful. But in a world where hit is really just for generating threat, it isn't very exciting and tanks get understandably emo when we put too much on their gear. (DKs are somewhat of an exception in a good way -- more on that in a sec.) We do see some players try and get excited about threat stats or even proud of their ability to generate threat, but overall we feel like threat stats are a trap, and it's usually the case that improving your survivability will have a better net impact on your group's progression.
We don't need a more complex UI
- We have threatened for years (see what I did there?) to build in some kind of threat tracking tool into WoW. But is that really good for the game? Do we really need yet another UI element for players to look at instead of looking at the actual game world? We know many raiders in particular use third-party threat mods today, but that has really been borne out of necessity rather than a sense that watching threat is super compelling gameplay. (When we say "super compelling gameplay" you can mentally replace that with "fun.")
- I know this bullet will be a point made by players critical of this change, but I would feel remiss in not bringing it up. We want it to be a positive experience when Dungeon Finder matches experienced players with newer players. The skill and gear of the former can help make up for that of the latter. Who better to teach you boss mechanics than players who have done the fights before? Even better, the gear of a veteran tank can make up for the less powerful gear of a beginning healer (which doesn't necessarily mean a noob -- it could be the alt of a very experienced raider).
- However, this system fails and often spectacularly so when it's the tank who is the undergeared player. Even if a competent healer can keep the undergeared tank alive, the fully raid-geared DPS spec is going to constantly be on the verge of pulling threat. That's not an issue of skill. It's just numbers. It's also not a problem that is easy to overcome for either the overgeared DPS or the undergeared tank -- it's just not a lot of fun for anyone.
So now what?
Given all of that, and watching how tanking has unfolded in Cataclysm, we've gotten over the concept that threat needs to be a major part of PvE gameplay. We have therefore decided to buff tank threat generation in 4.3 to where it's generally not a major consideration. We expect the community to gradually stop using threat-tracking mods as players realize they don't need them.
It's an important distinction that the concept of "aggro" will still exist. If a DPS spec attacks an add the second it shows up, then the creature is going to come at her. However, if a tank gets an attack or two on a target, then the target should stick to the tank. Worrying about who has the creature's attention should generally only be a concern at the start of a fight or when additional creatures join the battle. Worrying about a warrior or DK (the classes with nearly non-existent threat dumps) creeping up on tank threat after several minutes will almost certainly not be an issue any longer. (And if it is, we'll have to make further adjustments.)
We like abilities like Misdirect. It's fun as a hunter to help the tank control targets. We are less enamored of Cower, which is just an ability used often to suppress threat. We like that the mage might have to use Ice Block, Frost Nova, or even Mirror Image to avoid danger. We don't like the mage having to worry about constantly creeping up on the tank's threat levels. The notion of aggro (who the target is attacking) is a keeper. The notion of threat races (who is about to pull aggro) is going to be downplayed from here on out.
Upcoming changes
Here are the specific changes you're likely to see on the PTR for the next major content patch, 4.3:
- The threat generated by classes in their tanking mode has been increased from three times damage done to five times damage done.
- Vengeance no longer ramps up slowly at the beginning of a fight. Instead, the first melee attack taken generates Vengeance equal to one third of the damage dealt by that attack. As Vengeance updates during the fight, it is always set to at least a third of the damage taken in the last two seconds. It still climbs from that point at the previous rate, still decays at the previous rate, and still cannot exceed the current maximum.
You could argue that once threat is very easy to manage that a warrior tank could just go AFK. In reality, given today's boss encounters, an AFK warrior would end up standing in the wrong place, missing a tank transition, or otherwise do something or fail to do something that wipes the party or raid.
That said, we ultimately don't want tanking to be just standing there soaking boss hits and we would like to have more stats on gear that tanks care about. To solve those challenges, we want to shift more tank mitigation to require active management. We'll still give all the tanks emergency cooldowns like Shield Wall and Survival Instincts. However, we want to move the shorter cooldowns like Shield Block, Holy Shield and Savage Defense so that they work more like Death Strike. Blood DKs have a lot of control over the survivability they get from Death Strike, but as part of that gameplay, they have to actually hit their target. The other three tanks will get similar active defense mechanics. This doesn't mean everyone needs to use the DK model of self-healing, but they can use the DK model of managing resources to maximize survivability.
Death Strike consumes resources to help the tank survive. We toyed at one point with the paladin Holy Shield being a Holy Power consumer and we think we could do so again. Heck we could make Word of Glory the thing you're supposed to do with Holy Power, so long as we balanced all tanks around that idea and didn't feel it infringed too much on the DK mechanic. We could make Shield Block cost rage, and change Protection warrior rage income such that they had to manage rage, the way Fury and Arms warriors now must do. If tanks generated more rage from doing damage and less from taking damage, then hitting a target becomes very important, but for mitigation, not threat management reasons. This is a bigger change than it seems though. We don't want a model where the Prot warrior ignores Shield Slam, Devastate and Revenge (since threat isn't a big deal) in order to bank all rage for Shield Block (because survival is). Imagine a rage model where you always had enough rage for your core rotational abilities (they could be cheap or even generate rage), so that you could funnel most of your rage into Shield Block when survival mattered and Heroic Strike when it did not. Redesigning Savage Defense to make it a rage sink is an even bigger change, but we think there is an opportunity there to make the rotation more interesting for druids (and all tanks really). Their rotation would help them achieve the goal that usually matters the most to tanks: living.
This is the kind of design for which we're really going to need a lot of feedback once it hits the PTR. We can implement and verify empirically how much threat a tank generates, but it's hard for us to replicate the experience of all of the various raiding groups and dungeon parties out there. We invite you to try out the immediate and eventually the long-term changes when they are available on the PTR and then in the live game and let us know how they feel. Do you miss the threat game? Are you bored when tanking now? Conversely, with the changes, is tanking more fun for you? Does this new implementation of Vengeance feel better? Some systems design calls we can make just by processing numbers, and some are more squishy and involve a lot gut checks and wishy-washy "but how does it FEEL?" language. Messing with this kind of thing is definitely somewhere in the middle.
Greg "Ghostcrawler" Street is the lead systems designer for World of Warcraft, and lead eater at the dinner table.
The news is already rolling out for the upcoming WoW Patch 4.2! Preview the new Firelands raid, marvel at the new legendary staff, and get the inside scoop on new quest hubs -- plus new tier 12 armor!
Patch 5.3 interview with Ghostcrawler
Mystery of the Unborn Val'kyr
The latest patch 5.3 news
All of the latest Mists of Pandaria news





Reader Comments (Page 6 of 8)
mazca13 Aug 16th 2011 5:53PM
To be fair, the panthers in ZA seem to be deliberately designed to bounce around all over the group clawing people, regardless of threat.
babywhiz Aug 16th 2011 6:38PM
I'm not talking about the panthers, I'm talking about the lions on the way to the totem boss....where you usually go out into the water to avoid the pat on the road. There is like 6 of them that appear out of no where. If you change tanks in the middle of ZA, those lions go all the way out to the water to attack someone that hasn't even initially generated a bit of threat.
Yomamma Aug 16th 2011 2:44PM
"Furthermore, every character's toolbox includes some cool survival" My Shaman doesn't have any type of aggro dump...unless there is a spell I haven't been using. Right now to dump aggro I take my hands off the keyboard and watch the mage iceblock, priest fade, hunter feign death, etc..
I think this would be a great idea. I have my DK and paladin alts all decked out in entry level tanking gear, all ready to lead a group through an instance. However, I always queue for dps or healer after seeing the abuse a new tank has to go through while grouped in the dungeon finder. Currently, I'll never tank for a random group...I will only help out friends or guild members.
Jawn Aug 16th 2011 3:00PM
Your windshear spell is in the same general class as a rogue's feint. It's not an aggro ~dump~, but it is an aggro reduction. I've used it. It works. But only if you keep in mind that it's a aggro ~reducer~, and not a clean slate.
akiva Aug 16th 2011 4:51PM
http://www.wowhead.com/spell=20608
Yomamma Aug 16th 2011 4:57PM
Thank you for the wind shear tip. I did not know that...I'll have to give it a try next time I get a little out of control with my dps...then again I'm an elemental shaman..I rarely can pull off the tank unless if I open up with a potion :(
Thank you akiva, but I don't know if I'd consider letting myself die an aggro dump.
Luotian Aug 16th 2011 5:11PM
It doesn't always work, though. Half the time on me Ele. Shaman, it actually gives me MORE aggro instead of reducing anything. It's kind of a huge pain.
Prong Aug 16th 2011 2:46PM
Speaking for my warrior tank...things look cool. But can warriors please get a rez in the near future? I'd be totally happy with a "jump on players chest" ability to shock them back to life :) Being the only tanking class without a rez is a little sad.
herra.ledonne Aug 16th 2011 2:53PM
Neat, tanks have less to worry about keeping the sharp end of their enemies' blades at them, and can focus more on not taking more damage than needed. Should also take a little bit of the weight off the healers that way, plus you won't have to heal that angry man waving two big axes like they were a second, undergeared tank...
Basil Aug 16th 2011 2:57PM
Mannn...I don't know. This kind of discourages me as a tank. I've been playing one since the game started, and as the game became more and more casual I have always been supportive. At the same time, I really loved that being a good tank was one of the last few areas of actual prestige in the game. It was the one area that true skill, practice, and knowledge could make a difference and everyone could TELL that you were good.
Now, there will still be room for good tanks (no doubt), but a lot more mediocre tanks are gonna get passed into groups and raids because nobody will know the difference (since the only really visible means of a tank being bad is losing aggro). The healers will just be expected to make up the difference on the bad tanks that can't use their cooldowns properly (which is pretty much already the case, and only going to get worse).
It just feels like they are taking away any and all roles that truly require skill. Sometimes, people like playing a game because being good at something that is challenging is what makes it fun. When everything is easy to do, nobody gets the satisfaction that they have mastered something.
cyclopsfar Aug 16th 2011 4:01PM
"(since the only really visible means of a tank being bad is losing aggro)"
You done any raids lately? Heck, even in the current 5-man heroics there are plenty of other ways to tell a bad tank, assuming you don't have group members that can easily compensate for the fail.
Since vengence was implemented, threat hasn't really mattered beyond the first few seconds of a pull where the good DPSers would be helping you out anyway (if they could), or letting you get going if they couldn't actively help.
PodPeople Aug 16th 2011 5:44PM
Basil,
I'm not sure you have been continually tanking through-out WoW's lifespan, or at the very least you must have taken a 2 yr break from the game during the entirety of WotLK. The model they are moving to now is more like how it was during Wrath, threat was of no consequence and lead to 5-mans (and even raids) becoming AoE zerg-fests. With these proposed changes the only thing keeping that from happening again is that tanks and healers can not keep up with the amount of incoming damage if you mass pull. There are plenty of ways to tell is someone is a good tank or not. If you truly believe that holding aggo is the only way to tell, then I'd say you Are a bad tank. If you're looking for a challenge in the game try rolling heals, perhaps you will better understand what separates a good tank from a bad one.
Jawn Aug 16th 2011 2:57PM
This will be interesting, i think. I have a warrior tank and recently had my DK go tank instead. (Just to reassure you folks, i tank solely for my guildies, so you don't have to put up with my lesser tanking skills)
I've always had trouble with threat when on my warrior tank. I'm not geared in (many) epics, yet, i have a few greens, and mostly blues. I'm still pretty new at tanking. I see some warroir tanks in the RDF groups i'm in, and wow.... it's insta-threat. I've yet to figure out how. I tried to emulate it, unsuccessfully, so far. This has discouraged me some. So i decided to try something out.
I deleted my DK's old 2-hander frost spec (i kept it as back-up in hopes that 2-hander frost will catch up to dual-wield, but i DW now) and made a blood spec. I had some tanking pieces from quests and greed rolls, so i wasn't out in left field. Then i took my little DK out for a spin with guildies. It was shaky at first, but once i got more familiar with my new abilities, and keys layout, it went pretty darn well. I was hardly thinking about threat anymore, i was thinking about survivability, placing the fight, grabbing adds, when to use my CDs. It was ~fun~. It seems they will try to bring this to other tanks.
While i deplore that this comes just after i spent a good chunk of gold to gear up my DK tank, i suppose in the large scheme of things for myself, it's still a good thing: i'll have the choice between 2 tanks. That is a good thing, right? Maybe i'll be good enough to go pug... nah. I won't do that to yous.
tbutton Aug 16th 2011 3:07PM
Sigh. As DPS I like playing as close as you can to the threat line without getting splattered. It is a fun dynamic, and it's an interactive one. You want there to be situations where what one player does, or doesn't do, messes up the rest of the team. I also enjoy deciding whether or not to heal DPS who mess up, based on how much I like them.
That said, I don't like tanking. Particularly dungeon finder tanking with level 40 feral druids. Abolishing level 40 feral druids seems like a better solution, but maybe this will help. The queues don't lie, people would rather not tank.
Yomamma Aug 16th 2011 3:02PM
I did not know that Jawn...thank you!!! I'll have to give that a try next time.
Greg Aug 16th 2011 3:19PM
This.
Perfectly said by the man himself, GC... and all the people pre-cataclysm who said making threat matter again seemed kind of silly, because that is NOT the fun part of tanking. I'm glad Blizz is coming to their collective senses and removing this from game.
Make the survivability aspect more interesting is definitely what tanking needs. If anything, tanks should get more powerful tools for shaping the battle in every situation. This is the meat of tanking- bringing casters together, making the switch, kiting through the debuff, using CDs to survive heavy bursts, carefully applying stuns and interrupts, and generally being a battle technician.
The more engaging the tanks tools to control the fight, the more fun the role of tank becomes.
Wolfbeckett Aug 16th 2011 3:09PM
As a DPSer, I'm not a fan of this change. How much more Kindergarten Korner does DPSing need to be before it's not even worth bothering with anymore?
VioletArrows Aug 16th 2011 4:05PM
Thank you for your helpful and constructive feedback.
Yomamma Aug 16th 2011 4:10PM
It's that way already. We bring you along for...umm....I'll have to get back to you on that one ;)
Just kidding...I do know I love having a mage in group for mana biscuits that I use when I run battlegrounds after my random dungeon. Seriously, why don't mage's like to drop a refreshment table at the start of a battleground? I'm not greedy with you using my totems to buff you :)
Skarn Aug 16th 2011 4:26PM
It already IS this way for the DPS for the most part. I never have to worry about threat. On the extremely rare occasion that I creep up on the tank, I just FD. /shrug