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8-16-2011 @ 12:47PM
As a veteran dps, tank, and healer I endorse shifting a tank's attention away from threat to survivability much how a DK has to.
8-16-2011 @ 1:26PM
Speaking as a healer/DPSer, and a newbie tank, this is quite the relief. Tank survival has traditionally been the role of the healer, and at times, that can be INSANELY stressful. (Such as when healing to keep the tank alive pops you to second in threat, just in time to be targeted by some disabling effect that prevents you from healing the tank...) Changing the tanking game to be focused around awareness and active survival will be a great improvement from the healer standpoint, at least. Seems like for a tank, it'll simply be less threat racing (can you generate it faster than your DPS?) and more like stance dancing (rotation dancing?), where the tank shifts their rotation in time with the ebb and flow of damage.Perhaps we'll even see tanks judged primarily on their relative damage TAKEN per second.
8-16-2011 @ 1:40PM
I was always of the mind that survivability was more the healer's job, and the tank's job was to get smashed in the face so everyone else wouldn't have to. To this end I would have hoped healers would have gotten tools to improve tank survivability and tanks tools to focus more heavily on threat management.I'm not sure I'm relieved; managing threat has always been a part of my job no matter the role I have played. Almost every class has some tool (e.g. Fade, Feign Death, etc.) to manage their threat (I said ALMOST, Arms Warriors). Active threat management is/was supposed to be a part of the game. In random Heroics I understand that the above might be an issue, but for raiders this just eliminates one aspect of the game.I am deeply concerned that the removal of threat will lead to even more meter-humping on the part of DPS rather than focusing on mechanics.We will have to wait until it hits live, however, to see how it pans out through the player-base at large.
8-16-2011 @ 2:17PM
@Boz:I see where you're coming from, but I think GC's point is a good one: has any of that ever made a fight more enjoyable?As dps, I can say that while it's definitely been something I have to watch, the times I've had to ratchet down (or even switch to wanding, in the case of really undergeared tanks...) just aren't fun; they're stressful. Not in the hectic, fun, last-phase-of-Cho'gal-all-hell-breaking-loose sense, but in the tense, teeth-grinding, come-on-you-damned-meat-shield-get-your-threat-up-and-let-me-work kind of way.And while I think the threat design definitely had a place before, the way blizz is designing fights these days, everyone's got enough to worry about just with timing their attacks/defenses/heals properly while still maintaining situational awareness and keeping track of what the boss is going to do next.Plus, you can bet that if they're taking away one more thing to keep track of, they'll feel more free to add in a few more... ("Well, they don't have to worry about threat any more, so lets add 3 more phases, some exploding fireballs, and maybe a giant add or two.")
8-16-2011 @ 2:42PM
It all depends on how they do it. I like the idea of more classes playing like a dk but they should focus more on mitigation then self heals. Healing a dk in heroic raid level situations is a pain in the ass at best. I've had more then a few times where the tank is low and so are some dps. Clearly as a good healer I say fuck the dps and keep the tank alive but then there is a 50/50 shot the dk just healed up, making most of my heal useless and now we're down a dps.If they do go with a lot of self healing I hope they make is small but consistant heals instead of building up a bunch of death ruins then blowing ds when you need it. It's just to much of a pain to know when you have to heal the tank or not and in heroics where every bit of mana counts this is a big issue.
8-16-2011 @ 3:16PM
As a newbie tank and veteran healer/DPS, I love this change. I agree with GC that threat was a mechanic that could make things tougher, but it wasn't a "fun" challenge. IMO, fun is managing your procs and cooldowns well, positioning and general awareness...not throttling your DPS to manage your spot on a threat list or tabbing around to make sure threat is being generated evenly as a tank.Of course, as a newbie tank, I'm hardly the best at it so this may be a reaction of relief...the thing I found most stressful is going to be easier. I love tanking bosses, because then I can largely just worry about positioning and awareness. Tanking trash was always what was stressful to me, due to the number of things that DPS could potentially pull away. I don't know if most tanks find trash harder, but that seems backward to me.In any case, I think worrying about tank cooldowns, positioning and awareness (which are mostly the tanking skills that matter in raids) rather than threat will be beneficial for newer tanks.
8-16-2011 @ 4:00PM
I would prefer to see other tanks manage health spikes like DKs have to and just adjust healing situations to help deal with it. Block is too powerful....and too preferable for healers. Blizz should just tone down unavoidable aoe so decent dps requiring healing won't be such an issue.Fix the DK tank scaling issues by "breaking" every other tank's mechanics? It is about time to see tanking about trying not to get squished.
8-16-2011 @ 4:03PM
@Boz: I disagree. I think Survival is entirely the tank's job. That's the only reason the tank is in the group! The rest of us already make the boss pretty mad by ourselves.I must first admit that my tanking experience is extremely small. Back in BC sometime I did some tanking on my druid (around level 50) in a few dungeons. I've also done a tiny bit of tanking on my warrior (also around level 50) in Cataclysm. My biggest experience with tanking is on my Death Knight in Wrath. Again, just leveling dungeons, but this time between levels 70-78. Clearly I have no raid tanking experience, though I have much raid leading and raid DPS experience. All that out of the way, here are my thoughts:Tanking was fairly boring. Especially as a Death Knight at that moment in time. I felt like a DPS that was allowed to pull aggro. I didn't feel like I was doing anything to stay alive, which felt like the point of tanking. The reason a Prot Warrior tanks is because he can take it. I don't tank on my hunter (more than 5 seconds, heh) because I turn into a squishy paste. That, to me, is what makes a tank, well, a tank. The ability to SURVIVE. I don't bring the tanks to raid because of their spectacular ability to kill bosses or even really to show me how mad they can make the bosses. I can do that just fine all by myself! I don't do that though because I would die. I'm no tank.On my DK in those 5-man dungeons, I felt like I didn't have much to do. I'd pull the mobs, then I'd just sit there and go through my DPS rotation, sometimes hitting Icebound Fortitude if the pull was rough enough. I felt exactly like I do as a DPS except that I was allowed to pull aggro and my DPS sucked. I didn't feel like a tank, I didn't feel like I was doing anything to SURVIVE, which is the tank's purpose and reason for being. Oh sure, I could hit a cooldown once a minute, but that wasn't FUN.I haven't tanked at a high level in Cataclysm, so it may well feel different now. The idea and concept behind these changes has me excited. I don't think a tank's main job should be about threat. It should be about survival, since that is exactly the tank's purpose in the group. Fighting for threat doesn't really make you a tank. It makes you a weak DPS.
8-16-2011 @ 4:18PM
Bah, I knew I was gonna forget something!You might say that this change will make all tanking like those leveling dungeons, since you have nothing to do with "auto-threat." Here's the problem with the current threat game: It's too binary. You either have threat or you don't. It my brief tanking experience, either I did it right and was bored while the mobs beat on me or I did did it wrong and the mobs killed the DPS/healers. There was very little room for error. If I ever didn't have threat, someone was dead. (This was especially annoying on AoE packs where it was hard to tell if they were all on me, especially if one or two swapped to a melee DPS. At least if they went after ranged I could see them move.)So no, I don't think threat is very interesting. On my hunter in raids, while attacking the big boss, threat is irrelevant to me. On occasion I might be getting close to the tank's threat so I just FD. Not really that exciting. (Neat to be able to say I can manage threat better than someone else, but not fun in-and-of itself.) On the other hand, what IS fun is pulling adds to the tank and then using FD to leave them on the tank. For example, on Rhyolith if Fragments spawn on the other side of the island for some reason, I can do a Multi-shot (doesn't need MD) to grab 'em all real fast. They run after me while I go stand by the tanks and when they get there in the tank's nice aoe area (where I happen to have a slow trap too), I FD and the tanks grab 'em. That's pretty fun, but has nothing to do with threat itself, just the aggro concept. It's all or nothing, but the incremental threat on a single-boss (like Baleroc) is just boring and irrelevant.
8-16-2011 @ 5:02PM
Seriously? Aren't DK's currently complaining about having to dump Deathstrike non stop? As a healer, DK's generally are the spikiest bunch to try to heal and now they want to make other classes feel like that?Now the undergeared tank doesn't need to worry about losing threat and a DPS dying, he'll die first.
8-16-2011 @ 5:25PM
To emphasize, "...survivability was MORE the healer's job..."It is always the tank's job to survive, but removing the challenge of threat management the tank becomes primarily a damage reduction engine for the healer. This is an oversimplification (since tanks position mobs, silence/interrupt mobs, etc.), but if I were to summarize to a new player each role, now both the tank and healer's PRIMARY job is to keep the tank alive, rather than the tank's primary job being to hold the attention of the mob(s).Basically you now have two roles focusing on the same task: Managing the tank's health pool.I would have preferred to see some of the damage reduction cooldowns transferred to the healers to allow them to better time their existing big heals and cooldowns, since it can be a challenge to communicate cooldowns between healer and tank. This way tanks could focus more on threat management. However, that's giving more tools to a role (healer) that is already overburdened with a ton of spell management, making the current model a more elegant solution, likely.It is always every player's responsibility to stay alive, but the primary role of the tank - to me - had always been first and foremost to hold the attention of the mob in question while staying alive.It should be interesting to see if this makes tanking a bit easier and more desirable/palatable.
8-16-2011 @ 5:34PM
@VocenoctumYou're not looking at the big picture. If ALL tanks are equally the spikiest to heal, then it doesn't matter. Once they add more active mitigation to all tanks, it'll be easier to balance them all around that. They can also then balance boss encounters around the same concept.
8-16-2011 @ 6:31PM
As a raid level DK tank, I feel sorry for the other tanks getting this change. At the moment DKs, while not being underpowered in any way, play very counterintuitive at raid level tanking. We sacrifice using any blood runes, and refreshing deseases outside of outbreak due to the fact that runic empowerment will proc more death strikes, and using runes on anything but death strikes can kill you. "Fine", you say, "just spam deathstrike!" but there is an aweful catch 22 there. If we use a death strike prior to the boss' swing we get a very slight heal and a worthlessly weak shield, but if we use it after a boss' swing, we get a bigger heal and a much better shield. This is why death knight health spikes so much, but we heal that health back, unless a healer tops us off befor we can get in several death strikes. This is a common reaction for healers, the tank takes a large ammount of damage, so you use an emergancy heal, but in doing so, weaken the death knight for the next hit, in which this process is repeated untill the deathknight either dies, or the healer runs oom. This is why death knights are in general the least appealing tank to play or to heal, they are counterintuitive and require the healer to put too much thought into healing the tank (ie. "Does he have runes for deathstrike? Should I get a big heal ready just to be safe? Will I gimp his heal and shield, effectivly weakening his mitigation and effective health?")TL;DR: Death knights need some major qol fixes befor blizz decides to force all tanks to play with this handicap
8-16-2011 @ 8:03PM
If all tanks suck it'll make it easier to fix them? :-pNot that DK's suck, it's just not how I like to tank.I don't mind the threat changes, but tanking IMO is about directing the fight, moving stuff, picking up stuff, not just trying to stay alive. I don't really want "trying to stay alive" to be as active as they seem to think.And from a healer standpoint, no matter what they say, when the tank dies it'll be because "why didn't I get enough heals?". Not only does my priest have to yank someone out of fire, now she also needs to work around the tank getting parried.I understand the situation for Randoms, I really do, but I also know that they have a bonus for damage to compensate for "strangers in a dungeon", why not just boost Threat in a random?It seems like they can't fix it, so they're just going to move the game to "tank staying alive" instead, like the supposed change to healing paradigm...
8-16-2011 @ 10:42PM
I suspect a big part of the threat issues tanks are having in 5-mans is because a big chunk of them are raiders chasing chaos orbs who are raid-geared, but also raid-gemmed, enchanted, and reforged. They follow EJ theorycrafting, more or less, which is smart for raiding, but an absolute f***ing nightmare in a 5-man.If you're grabbing as much avoidance and mitigation as possible, you're going to be flailing at things like a buttered drunkard. Mobs will stick to you like you're made of teflon, and you will generally Not Have Fun.I'm reserving judgement on this until we see something more concrete.
8-18-2011 @ 12:29AM
@Minstrel: Yeah, tanking trash has always been the most stressful part of the game for me, too. Especially when the mobs don't start out next to each other or if there's more than one ranged mob to deal with, since most dps aren't willing to just give me three seconds to get and establish threat across the entire pack. I think the most frustrating thing in the game is the one thing that Blizz can't control: it just seems like alot of people don't get that dps and the tank are on the same side, it really isn't a competition to see who can nuke things the hardest, it's about killing the boss.
9-27-2011 @ 10:53PM
I actually got so sick of players not understanding threat, I just quit tanking. Seriously, I love it, and I won't do it outside a full guild run anymore.I actually blame it on damage meter porn and fast leveling against generally impotent mobs. Maybe a few more mobs like the BC heroics that would 2 shot anything but a tank wouldn't be amiss.I actually don’t get why they don’t simply unto the Survival-of-the-Fittest-for-Everyone change insofar as crit immunity goes. There was a reason leather type gear didn't need a load of hit or exp; nearly everyone wearing it attacked from behind and tanks had SoF so didn't need to stack it. It's not like they totally burned gear with exp on it...it was still useful, but NO leather wearer wanted a pantload.Plate wearers of every kind benefit from hit and expertise; dps classes can do more dps without the current cat problem of having to stay behind the target ALL the time, and tanks can all parry, and two can shield block, and conveniently, they all rely on hitting their targets. Perhaps Blizzard should be focused on the synergy between offensive and defensive expertise. There is no reason that becoming uncritable through expertise has to benefit ONLY plate tanks.I hate healing DK tanks...I wouldn't say they are the worst, but they are undoubtably the spikiest. As far as I'm concerned, DK tanks could use a talent to convert expertise to a scaling hp generation on every attack (and the nature of that would mean the more expertise you have, the more valuable it is) or Damage Reduction in lieu of shield block, since I think they are a broken tank anyway. They would make more sense if they inexorably gained health back so they took about the same amount of healing as other tanks. Alternatively, allow DKs to "bank" some overheal, since they are supposed to be undead life stealers anyway.I do not view the pvp model of "oh dear lord Im gonna die" buttons as fun to tank with, especially when they keep insisting that they want to let the tank concentrate on other things. I instead forsee this change encouraging whichever healer can throughput the most for the longest. It will mark the return of the amazing one button healing pally, as least in spirit.
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