The problem is that there are two different Hordes.

You're talking about the Old Horde. The demon-controlled Horde that swept in from outland was Bad. Yes.

...And then they were put into internment camps, nearly became extinct, and Thrall came riding up out of nowhere and rescued them from themselves.

The New Horde is what players are in. The New Horde came to Kalimdor, were freed from demon influence, and returned to their shamanic roots with help from the Tauren. The New Horde are underdogs, endlessly persued and persecuted; living in inhospitable territory and trying to eke out a new way of life.

Garrosh's Horde is different yet, but at least we now have a clear distinction between "The Horde" and what came through the Dark Portal, yes?

The problem with that is, that there hasn't been enough time between the new Horde and the old Horde. Even in the third war did the Orcs slay the demigod protector of the Night Elves while chopping down their sacred forest.

And it's not like the first and second war are a thing of the distant past, many of the villains of the old Horde are valued members of the new Horde as well. They even named their capital city after one of the biggest butcher.

As long as there is no clear break, no atonement, no apology for the atrocities of the past, it's hard to see the new Horde as all that different from the old.

Now, there's a lot of things the new Horde has done that you can hold up as crimes. But the natural end result of the time the Night Elves jumped Grom Hellscream completely out of the blue and then when that didn't work set a God on them probably isn't one of them.

I think Cenarius doesn't bring it up in game because everyone involved is trying to pretend it didn't happen.

If the "New Horde" is trying to distance itself from the Old Horde, they're doing a pretty crappy job of it, what with revering many of its chief generals as heroes and naming capital cities, landmarks, and outposts after them all over Azeroth.

Also, committing all those atrocities.

Actually, it is kind of interesting looking at the difference between Thrall's Horde and Garrosh's Horde, which is primarily in their opinion of the Alliance.

Let's use Mitawa's post as a starting point, with the New Horde having settled down in inhospitable territory and built new cities only a couple of years prior. When this Horde, primarily the orcs in it, interacts with the Alliance, the human attitude is much like Sinthar described: "You Horde are barely civilized savage murderers that invaded and killed us without reason or warning!"

Thrall's attitude is basically "They're right. It may not have been us, specifically, but we still need to make up for the crimes of our people and prove to them that we have changed." So even if the Horde needs resources, as they did pre-Cataclysm, Thrall wants his people to suffer through it because the alternative would be to go to war with the Alliance, and Thrall doesn't want that because he wants peace with the Alliance and the orcs, as the Old Horde, have already done much harm to the humans. This attitude basically sends two messages to his people: that they need to suffer penitence to prove themselves to the Alliance, and that they shouldn't take pride in being orcs, because, just by being an orc, they share responsibility for the crimes of the Old Horde.

A large part of the reason Thrall is so concerned with the Alliance here is because he really wants to make peace with humans and the Alliance. However, Garrosh doesn't see any benefit the Horde would gain from peace with the Alliance that they wouldn't get from war with the Alliance - in fact, trying for peace is already causing the orcs to suffer from trying to prove to the Alliance that they have changed. And since Garrosh sees no point in making peace with the Alliance, he sees also no point in any suffering the orcs are going through for the sake of the Alliance, and therefore is also telling the orcs that they don't have to be ashamed of being orcs. Yes, the Old Horde did terrible things, but they aren't the Old Horde; they don't need to pay just for being born an orc.

This is where Garrosh's popularity as a leader (as opposed to a warrior) comes from; not only does he say the Horde doesn't have to suffer from lack of resources anymore, he also says that they can take pride in being orcs again.

Here's a speech Overlord Krom'gar gives to his soldiers in Stonetalon occasionally, and while Krom'gar turned out to be the worst kind of orc, I think it's interesting to see why he respects Garrosh and what, precisely, he evokes to try to rouse up his soldiers:

Overlord Krom'gar says: Grunts, ATTENTION!
Overlord Krom'gar says: I am perplexed. Troubled by what I witness...
Overlord Krom'gar says: How has our revered Warchief failed you?
Overlord Krom'gar says: Your families no longer starve.
Overlord Krom'gar says: Your loved ones live with shelter over their heads.
Overlord Krom'gar says: You may walk through the streets of Orgrimmar with pride!
Overlord Krom'gar says: We are the new Horde, and under Warchief Hellscream, we are masters of our own destinies.
Overlord Krom'gar says: WHY THEN, have we failed to take Stonetalon Mountains?
Overlord Krom'gar says: How have the Alliance been able to halt the great Horde war machine?
Overlord Krom'gar says: From this day forth, failure is no longer an option.
Overlord Krom'gar says: Under Hellscream's watchful guise, live or die, we take Stonetalon.
Overlord Krom'gar says: Do not falter, for Hellscream's eyes are upon you all!

@mingdi9

10000x yes! What I dislike about Thrall, always have, is his view that the orcs have to pay for what their parents did. He's got human envy, really. But there is nothing wrong with being born where you are and trying to make things better. You shouldn't have to pay for it.

Which is why I defend Garrosh tooth and nail, even if the boy makes it difficult for me. Because he at least has pride. He cares about his people enough that children starving to death when there is a forest just over there seems horrible to him, instead of somehow justified for crimes those children had no part in.

I started Alliance, but the more I learned about the leaders the more I disliked it. With the exception of Varian, who I love for his flaws, they all seemed wishy-washy and lacked any real sense of pride for their people. They didn't seem to even *care*. I switched to Horde to see what the blood elves I was always so hard on were like, and only looked back long enough to roll a dwarf shaman for the lolz.

@Midig

Yes.

And I think Garrosh can do take the position he does because when other people bring up the old horde, he can honestly say that no, he didn't have a part in it. He's not demon tainted, he wasn't involved in the old Horde war machine as he was a toddler with the plague trying to avoid having his skull smashed in by Ogres and Broken. If anything, the existence of the old horde screwed him over.

He's not peacable, but he is free from the metaphorical original sin and thus he's in a position to wonder why he and his people should still be atoning for the sins of their fathers and grandfathers.

Actually, let's not forget that Thrall himself also has nothing to do with the Old Horde. The only difference is that Thrall's green skin recalls the taint of the demon blood, while Garrosh's brown Mag'har skin does not.

Thrall thinks that he still has to pay for the crimes of the Old Horde, even if he didn't have anything to do with it. Actually, looking at his 4.2 questline and Twilight of the Aspects, it's possible that Thrall just has a habit of overburdening himself and considering himself responsible for everything.

Meet the new horde, same as the old Horde.

......Won't get fooled again.