Does the Rise of the Zandalari dungeon tier serve a purpose?

Patch 4.1 shook things up, and although patch 4.2 introduced a new raid, the same basic system that debuted in 4.1 is still with us. The Zandalari heroics not only dropped epic gear, they allowed non-raiders to collect twice as many valor points, a grand total of 980 valor points. It also allowed players to run heroics in a less limited fashion; you had up to seven in a week and you could run them once a day, all seven at once, or at any other rate you liked until you'd run your seven in a week's time. This was, overall, a positive change and one that allowed non-raiders to collect the tier gear available on vendors faster. Patch 4.2's change to the valor cap (reducing it to 980 in a week) meant that the Zandalari heroics could supply non-raiders with as many VPs as raiders got from raiding.
Now here we are, a couple of months into patch 4.2, and for the most part everyone's run the Zandalari heroics enough to be as fully geared as valor points make possible. Any pieces not available to non-raiders will have been picked up from the ZG/ZA loot table. I'd hazard a guess that a significant fraction of people go from leveling up straight to the Zandalari heroics, carried by justice point tier 11 epics that put them over the ilevel cap as soon as they hit 85, especially when they can also bank honor points and trade those for JPs or spend them on PVP weapons as good or better than the Zandalari items.
At this point, the Zandalari heroics are used to grind out valor points, then grind out justice points for supplemental items or heirlooms for alts. Yet the Zandalari heroics still give twice as many VPs, and when you're capped on VPs, reward twice as many JPs as the launch heroics. With the recent announcement of patch 4.3 coming with three new 5-man dungeons, we're moved to ask: Why not open up the heroics we have to more people?

Opening up the other eight heroics to the 140 VP/JP reward for completing them would basically be saying, "At this point, it's not the gear, it's the points" -- and frankly, that's exactly the case. With ilevel 365 gear available through dailies and crafting and ilevel 378 gear in the AH from Firelands farming, most players are farming up the valor pieces and items they can get and filling the holes they can't with JP purchases. With this as the case, it's simply not necessary to bestow special status on the Zandalari heroics at this point.
ZG and ZA are fine dungeons, well designed, a half-step harder than most of the heroics that came in with launch, but the gear curve is catching up to them, as it must to all things, and as a result, groups that are purely running dungeons to gear up an alt or two are subjected to a level of monotony that simply isn't in anyone's best interest. It would be far better if people whose main emphasis was running five mans could run them and get one out of 10 possible dungeons instead of one out of two.
Another difficulty here is one not everyone will agree with, but here it is: When the Cataclysm dungeons launched, their heroics were often very hard to pug. Months later, that's not the case -- so why not let groups that can finally stop and look at all that gorgeous scenery go in and do so? Dungeons like Halls of Origination, Throne of the Tides, Lost City of the Tol'vir and Vortex Pinnacle are magnificent dungeons in terms of art and layout. Their inclusion in the Rise of the Zandalari tier of reward would greatly break up what potential art and music we were going to be exposed to while farming for points.
With 4.3 a few months away, this is a change that could be made immediately and that would immediately relieve some of the tedium that is unavoidable when grinding points in the same two places over and over again. It would be as if the only BG worth running was Alterac Valley. No matter how much you like AV, you'd get sick of it eventually.
In the end, there simply appears to be no compelling reason to maintain the tier of reward difference between ZG/ZA and the rest of Cataclysm's heroics. For the benefit of everyone involved, for more reason to run these well designed, beautiful instances, and for a break from killing trolls over and over again, I can't see a downside to moving this particular content wall.
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Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Raiding
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Reader Comments (Page 3 of 6)
Shade Aug 22nd 2011 2:34PM
Zul'Aman! Zul'Gurub! Zul'Scarlet Monastery - Library!
...jk. Can you even imagine that? "You will not defile dese mysteries, mon!"
Though I think it would have been cool to see a second Gun'drak instance somehow. Have some scripted events where scourge trash packs suddenly stop attacking us to go after a pack of trolls, as a tiny nod to Bolvar. It would also have been a chance for a three-way final boss fight - us, a troll boss, and a scourge boss. One piece of loot off of each and there are different strategies for killing either boss first, or for trying to kill them at the same time.
eel5pe Aug 22nd 2011 5:06PM
...ZulFarrak?
ZubaInverse Aug 22nd 2011 1:25PM
For fresh alts or new players, the ZA/ZG tier *IS* harder than the others. Yes, most of the actual items from there can be replaced with higher iLvl gear from VP or crafting without having to raid, with the exception of the head/shoulders and possibly a few other niche items. Requiring the higher gear level for them isn't a waste.
I would agree that the rewards for the previous launch instances could be boosted now that the benefits of ZA/ZG are less than they had been.
JaimeRavenholdt Aug 22nd 2011 1:28PM
4.2 Troll dungeons are a great way to gear up alts to raid status, however there should be more than two dungeons. Furthermore, they're still fun and challenging enough with 359ish gear to keep me entertained as opposed to the grindfest that was Wrath.
More dungeons? Definitely. Keep the difficulty? For sure, because what else am I going to do besides dailies, PvP, and waiting for raids to start?
Valorum Aug 22nd 2011 1:34PM
"When the Cataclysm dungeons launched, their heroics were often very hard to pug. Months later, that's not the case"
if my pug experiences are any indication, these are not easily-puggable. Maybe slightly easier than when they launched... but not much.
Puntable Aug 22nd 2011 1:31PM
No. The Zuls still take twice as long to complete than the other heroics. A Zul can still be a wipe-fest if you get one person that does not know the mechanics. I still refuse to tank Zuls, because of the trash pulls.
Hal Aug 22nd 2011 1:33PM
You know what? I have yet to complete the new ZG.
It's not for a lack of trying; I've been in several times. It's not for a lack of gear; every time I've been in, it's been with groups that severely outgeared the place.
No, it's because everytime I've been there, the some number of the DPS have no idea what to do with the Hakkar fight and end up dying, resulting in a wipe because you can't really finish it with a single DPS + Tank&Healer.
I still run the "normal" heroics for my weekly VP. Yes, I could get more doing the troll heroics. But then I'd have to deal with the people who figure that encounter mechanics don't apply to them, and I just don't need that frustration. At least with the launch heroics, those people don't affect any given run to as much of an extent anymore.
Necromann Aug 22nd 2011 3:58PM
I have to disagree with you on a point Hal. While healing a ZG on Jin'Do, it ended up being just me and the tank for the last dire troll right after he jumped and then the chain. Being atonement specced helped me a lot I think. That and the tank doing 10k dps single target and having around 240k health.
vocenoctum Aug 22nd 2011 4:19PM
I didn't run them for the longest time, but been running the dungeons lately on different alts. The groups are so random it's hilarious.
What I find is it's rare for me to actually do a full run. Usually the group I join is already midway or the group I'm in falls apart completely and I leave to go do other stuff in frustration.
Zankoku Aug 22nd 2011 4:25PM
Hate to break it to you... but Jindo 2.0 has been soloed. Reports on the MMO-C forums of a tank soloing the entire ZG instance (still trying to figure out Mandokir solo)
Arrohon Aug 22nd 2011 6:08PM
Get a guild group? I know for some guilds that getting anyone to group up is a pain (people in mine won't respond while they solo queue. they do this to just about everyone not just me... why be in a guild if you refuse to even attempt to do anything with anyone in the guild?) but if you can manage it then the runs should be much smoother.
Peebers Aug 22nd 2011 1:35PM
I mentioned something very similar in gchat few weeks ago. I thought it'd be nice if q'ing for zazg "proc'd" a chance to get one of the other heroics. Maybe 25,30%. I do think you should keep the 346 lock out of za but that shouldn't lock you out of other heroics. That only adds to the burnout problems wow seems to be having lately.
Mr. Crow Aug 22nd 2011 1:40PM
You're saying "people are getting boatloads of points from grinding the troll dungeons, so why not let them get those points from grinding the original tier of dungeons now that troll dungeons aren't the new hotness?" Blizzard's logical response is "what's stopping you from running those dungeons?"
The point systems exist to make sure you get something out of the run (whether it's gear or points to buy gear), but you should also be enjoying the run as well. If you're sick of killing trolls, just queue for the original tier and power through the place. So you'll be short some VP from Dungeon Finder... but getting into a pug for Argaloth/Occu'thar at BH or taking down any raid boss is going to help make up for that. And is being a little short on your VP income really going to be more aggravating than having to run ZG AGAIN?
The benefit of geared players going back to the original queue is that they'll be helping players who haven't been able to get into the troll heroics get there even faster. More players with top-end gear means more pugs available for raids. More pugs for raiding means more raiding groups, which allows people who are really done with the 5-man content to get into Valor incomes they might have had access to before.
I agree that the dungeon tier system only works if you're going to churn out new 5-man content on a fast basis -- it should never have reached this point, where the new raiding tier and daily content trivializes the gear gains from 5-man play -- but since Blizzard realized that a 5-man content-only patch isn't going to satisfy the bulk of players, I don't expect to see this tiering structure ever happen again.
Wasn't this the whole reason the raiding tiers were combined into a single-lockout system? So players couldn't burn themselves out on the content because they felt they had to do 25s AND 10s in order to stay competitive? There's no requirement that says "if you don't get all your VPs in a week you're a bad player" so I don't think Blizzard needs to make a change that just lets people do that when the content is still there to be played.
TL;DR: Rossi, I respectfully disagree. ^_^
John Aug 22nd 2011 3:17PM
Mouseover the bar that shows how many VP you've accumulated in a week when you have the dungeon finder open.
You'll see that you can not get more than 490VP per week from doing non-Z heroics.
THAT is "what's stopping you from running those dungeons?"
Mr. Crow Aug 22nd 2011 3:39PM
If the game was only about accumulating those points, then why does it matter what dungeon you're in?
The big thing I'm arguing here is that the game is NOT just about accumulating points -- it's about enjoying the time you spend playing. If I have to choose between maxing my incomes for the week and having fun in a dungeon, I'm going to pick having fun.
I can appreciate why some people want to have their cake AND eat it, but I don't see why Blizzard needs the change the paradigm any earlier than 4.3. The game isn't about points.
briker Aug 22nd 2011 4:32PM
It's more about efficient use of time. Given the number of alts, dailies and other things, let's mix up the heroics so that there is some variety while still gaining the maximum number of VP and JP.
If they do this, I say nerf the Hakkar fight and the Dragonhawk fight - it's still too much of a wipe fest, and kills more groups than anything else.
Let us run our dungeons, have some fun, get our points, and have a little variety in there too. On all of our alts.
Mr. Crow Aug 22nd 2011 4:39PM
@Briker: THAT I can't argue with. I only have the one main at 85, so for me, choosing to be less than efficient with my incomes isn't that big a deal. If you're fulltiming this game, then yes, efficiency is important.
Gerbera Aug 22nd 2011 4:51PM
"And is being a little short on your VP income really going to be more aggravating than having to run ZG AGAIN?"
Uh... seeing as how I grind out the max on my main every week and still have 1 VP piece left to get (for main spec only), not going to troll is a huge waste of time if I don't cap out for the week. I'm not doing these heroics for fun or loot or shards, I'm doing them for VP - that's IT.
My raid group is 6/7 in Firelands. I don't usually get the chance to kill BH because of time issues and PUGs on my server are horrible. 6/7 in Firelands leaves me 2 trolls short, or 4 normal heroics. Yes, queuing and completing 2 trolls takes less time than queuing and completing 4 normal heroics - I say this as heals AND dps.
Wellsee Aug 22nd 2011 1:40PM
I agree that it would be good to expand the pool of dungeons that reward more VPs; it would make it less tedious -- although in terms of grinding out points, give me ZA over deadmines every time! I've been wondering how the 3 new dungeons will work in terms of points, gear and also the LFD tool.
Now that I've agreed with your main premise, I'll disagree with your expansive statements about how people level, gear up and head straight to Zands though. No one in my guild of about 20 active players (about 12-14 casual raiders) gets to 85 on a main or alt and immediately starts Zands. That's because they don't level using "best practices" (/eye roll) so they aren't JP and honor capped when they hit 85. It is because Zand PUGs still can be horrible experiences - especially if you are only in 346-350 gear. It is because while leveling they didn't learn and practice all their abilities and rotations so want the easier dungeons to work out kinks. Even then, no one has finished their VP set yet. I'm probably furthest along and I have 3 more pieces to buy for my main set - neck, ring and relic. (I know we aren't a progression guild and progression players, but how many really are?)
I'm sure there are lots of people who level and gear in the way you assume but I bet there are more who don't do it that way. Which reminds me of something I've also been wondering about lately: what percentage of players have attempted a heroic FL boss? A regular FL boss?
brucek2 Aug 22nd 2011 1:41PM
They should just remove VP from dungeons period. Then no one would have to run them past the point where they were useful for gearing up. This would prevent the burn out and remove the "must do this task each week" nature of them.