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All of the latest Mists of Pandaria newsDoes the Rise of the Zandalari dungeon tier serve a purpose?
by Matthew Rossi 
Aug 22nd 2011 at 1:00PM
Patch 4.1 shook things up, and although patch 4.2 introduced a new raid, the same basic system that debuted in 4.1 is still with us. The Zandalari heroics not only dropped epic gear, they allowed non-raiders to collect twice as many valor points, a grand total of 980 valor points. It also allowed players to run heroics in a less limited fashion; you had up to seven in a week and you could run them once a day, all seven at once, or at any other rate you liked until you'd run your seven in a week's time. This was, overall, a positive change and one that allowed non-raiders to collect the tier gear available on vendors faster. Patch 4.2's change to the valor cap (reducing it to 980 in a week) meant that the Zandalari heroics could supply non-raiders with as many VPs as raiders got from raiding.
Now here we are, a couple of months into patch 4.2, and for the most part everyone's run the Zandalari heroics enough to be as fully geared as valor points make possible. Any pieces not available to non-raiders will have been picked up from the ZG/ZA loot table. I'd hazard a guess that a significant fraction of people go from leveling up straight to the Zandalari heroics, carried by justice point tier 11 epics that put them over the ilevel cap as soon as they hit 85, especially when they can also bank honor points and trade those for JPs or spend them on PVP weapons as good or better than the Zandalari items.
At this point, the Zandalari heroics are used to grind out valor points, then grind out justice points for supplemental items or heirlooms for alts. Yet the Zandalari heroics still give twice as many VPs, and when you're capped on VPs, reward twice as many JPs as the launch heroics. With the recent announcement of patch 4.3 coming with three new 5-man dungeons, we're moved to ask: Why not open up the heroics we have to more people?
Opening up the other eight heroics to the 140 VP/JP reward for completing them would basically be saying, "At this point, it's not the gear, it's the points" -- and frankly, that's exactly the case. With ilevel 365 gear available through dailies and crafting and ilevel 378 gear in the AH from Firelands farming, most players are farming up the valor pieces and items they can get and filling the holes they can't with JP purchases. With this as the case, it's simply not necessary to bestow special status on the Zandalari heroics at this point.
ZG and ZA are fine dungeons, well designed, a half-step harder than most of the heroics that came in with launch, but the gear curve is catching up to them, as it must to all things, and as a result, groups that are purely running dungeons to gear up an alt or two are subjected to a level of monotony that simply isn't in anyone's best interest. It would be far better if people whose main emphasis was running five mans could run them and get one out of 10 possible dungeons instead of one out of two.
Another difficulty here is one not everyone will agree with, but here it is: When the Cataclysm dungeons launched, their heroics were often very hard to pug. Months later, that's not the case -- so why not let groups that can finally stop and look at all that gorgeous scenery go in and do so? Dungeons like Halls of Origination, Throne of the Tides, Lost City of the Tol'vir and Vortex Pinnacle are magnificent dungeons in terms of art and layout. Their inclusion in the Rise of the Zandalari tier of reward would greatly break up what potential art and music we were going to be exposed to while farming for points.
With 4.3 a few months away, this is a change that could be made immediately and that would immediately relieve some of the tedium that is unavoidable when grinding points in the same two places over and over again. It would be as if the only BG worth running was Alterac Valley. No matter how much you like AV, you'd get sick of it eventually.
In the end, there simply appears to be no compelling reason to maintain the tier of reward difference between ZG/ZA and the rest of Cataclysm's heroics. For the benefit of everyone involved, for more reason to run these well designed, beautiful instances, and for a break from killing trolls over and over again, I can't see a downside to moving this particular content wall.
World of Warcraft: Cataclysm has destroyed Azeroth as we know it; nothing is the same! In WoW Insider's Guide to Cataclysm, you can find out everything you need to know about WoW's third expansion, from leveling up a new goblin or worgen to breaking news and strategies on endgame play.
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Raiding
Reader Comments (Page 4 of 6)
Symbology Aug 22nd 2011 1:42PM
I absolutely agree. The Zul'roics should be integrated into the regular heroic tier and all heroics should give the same level of rewards. There is simply no reason at this point to have them separate. The ilvl requirement will keep out those people who aren't yet geared for them, much like the intro quests did for the ICC Heroics.
I actually talked about this in more detail on my blog. Check it out here: Http://bit.ly/qU1m0E
Sunaseni Aug 22nd 2011 1:43PM
I get what they were trying to do with the Rise of the Zandalari. They wanted the sense of progression in the 5-mans, like how we did in raids (progress through tier 11, 12, etc.). This didn't quite work out, because running the same 2 instances 7 times isn't exactly exciting or dynamic.
It should have been done like the ICC heroics, where Forge of Souls, Pit of Saron, and Halls of Reflection weren't exclusive from the other heroics, but still enforced an iLevel requirement. Choosing just the Zandalaris randomly could be kept in, with the same rewards. It had the sense of progression for those who followed the storyline, you went from the Forge of Souls, into the Pit of Saron (though the layout didn't quite make sense), and deep into the Halls of Reflection to strike a blow against the Lich King. HoR was unmistakably the most difficult of the 5-man heroics, and really capped off the 5-mans, even if it was Hell.
Blizzard isn't using the 5-man group medium to its full effect, and I think that leads to a lot of stale content as the 5-mans are all the same after a while (trash, boss, trash, bos, ad nauseum). 5-mans can be more than just a starting point for gearing for raids. I think some 5-mans should be an alternate, and separate, route for advancement from raids, and provide a different storyline, which may or may not complement the raid's storyline. Even if eldritch abominations are confronted in raids, there are still smaller villains and that could still have massive consequences, which can be defeated in 5-mans. While many players just want to blaze through heroics, I have a feeling a good number will take notice of a good, fun storyline with suitably epic encounters, even if not in a raid setting.
Nathanyel Aug 22nd 2011 1:45PM
The point is to farm the ZG mount bosses, with only 15min downtime between runs, waiting in ZA, instead of one day (or 15*X min, if you try to get ZG as a random dungeon again.
So psst, don't make Blizzard put the tiers together :P
Thon Aug 22nd 2011 1:46PM
People say that the Zanda heroics are so much harder, and that's why they don't have them as randoms, but I don't see the point.
In Wrath we had dungeons like Halls of Reflection, which was significantly more difficult than the other dungeons and even then was quite difficult when it first came out. Obviously it got easier in time but so will the zandas.
The harder ICC 5mans were still on the random dungeon list, regardless if they were harder. That still doesn't mean undergeared people will keep coming in to unforgiving content, they should just put the ilevel cap on it from the randoms, just like they did with the ICC dungeons. You could queue for a random and get any dungeon, but if you were under a certain ilvl some harder dungeons were taken out of the equation.
For me it just seems really pointless to have them separate, while what they'd gain is more variety in doing dungeons, which would lead to more people doing dungeons overall (faster queuetimes) and happiness all around.
K.B. Aug 22nd 2011 1:47PM
I think a lot of people thought the 353 tier was kind of cheap. You needed a 346 score to get in for marginally better gear.
I think they should have left it more like the old raid with reputation rewards. That at least would have made it somewhat more interesting. You could have the mounts/pets and other stuff be rep rewards.
I agree the older heroics need something to get people to even bother with them. I think a lot of people are just going to wait for the 4.3 and the new 5 mans. Hopefully they won't be too punishing as I think this expansions heroics were a pain in the butt enough to drive subscribers away. Hopefully they make the new 5 mans fun and not a chore.
Dimmak Aug 22nd 2011 1:52PM
They definitely should be merged,
In fact once you have the gear score your random should automatically choose from every available dungeon. This feature already exists for our normal dungeons, lets apply it to heroics to.
JonRowley Aug 22nd 2011 1:56PM
If nothing else they could remove the VP cap from the regular heroics. That would give players the choice of how they want to get to weekly VP Cap. If it takes two regular to get as many points as one troll so be it. This could have cascading benefits as people trying to get geared through valor pts would not feel pressured into trolls and getting into them by equipping pvp gear, and tanks bored senseless of trolls would be doing more instances a week and be more available.
jtrack3d Aug 22nd 2011 2:10PM
No. Most people I know... won't step into ZA/ZG because the time per VP given isn't worth the wipefest. The only two slots you can get are helm and shoulders and 346 can do fine there until you get a T11 token.
IMO, ZA/ZG are just a time sink with nothing worth doing them for... INCLUDING VP.
Calicia Aug 22nd 2011 4:19PM
This is why they won't merge ZA/ZG with the other heroics a la ICC. I think people forget that while the ICC dungeons were harder, they were also shorter and had uncomplicated mechanics. Two tank and spank bosses and a gauntlet for HoR. Two bosses (with mildly interesting mechanics) for FoS. PoS was the only HoR run that had a bit of a time commitment and the worst thing was still the string of trash pulls before the cave o' falling ice. I didn't mind getting a HoR dungeon for my daily because it was a quick fun run. The Zans are long and the mechanics are not trivial. If we return to the 15 minute queue for DPS like we had in late Wrath, then people will drop when they pull a Zan (just like they sometimes do for DM and GB) and simply re-queue.
Calicia Aug 22nd 2011 4:25PM
Following up on my own post, the ultimate fix would be to make some of the Zan bosses optional like Halls of Origination. HoO is probably my favorite of the first tier of Cata dungeons because of the flexibility (even with the horribly irritating first boss).
eel5pe Aug 22nd 2011 5:16PM
Yeah, I don't know why this point hasn't gotten more attention because it's the major turd in the punch bowl. I'm sure we would all like to see all heroics give 140 VP, because it would help us gear up faster. But then who in their right mind would stay in the dungeon if ZA or ZG popped? They are significantly harder AND longer than the other heroics. Remember how many people would drop from Occulus? HoReflection? Hell, people still drop H DM these days because of it's relative difficulty and lenght. If there's a difference in time commitment or difficulty, people won't play them. So why do ZA/ZG, unless you really needed a drop (which will be even more obsolete once 4.3 comes out) or some crystals (down to 60g on my server)?
Howard Aug 22nd 2011 2:12PM
In my case, the Cata Heroics allowed me to practice my secondary spec to build up confidence to try to heal ZA/ZG. But otherwise, agree that -- if nothing else -- it would break up the monotony.
tony.nguyen.enmax Aug 22nd 2011 2:39PM
Simple solution. Keep the 980 VP weekly cap. Increase the Heroic VP cap from 480 to either ~700-800 or some where in between. That way if you're tired of killing trolls or tired of 20 minute queues, you do a normal Heroic, it's twice as fast so you still only get 70 VP. But you get that change of scenery. You'll have to find some other source to cap out your VP, whether it be raid or ZA/ZG. But at least you can limit the amount of ZA/ZG you have to endure every week.
MyTwoCents Aug 22nd 2011 2:40PM
How about having the standard heroics give the standard 70 VP but then once you "finish" the dungeon, an optional boss (new and hard like ZA/ZG) becomes available that drops the extra 70 VP? People could choose to queue for the regular heroics with the 70 VP cap or the "more-heroic" ZA/ZG/normal heroics with increased boss health pools/more damage and the extra boss and potential 140 VP? This would be a relatively cheap way to freshen up the old heroics for everyone who's run them many times. Blizzard could even make the gear cap for the "more-heroic" heroics higher than current so you have to run the old heroics at least a few times and not just jump in to the ZA/ZG/more heroic tier to replace the greens, thereby keeping a pool of players available for the regular heroics
Jolly Aug 22nd 2011 2:49PM
I just don't think there is a problem here to be solved. The heroics are working fine, and ZA/ZG are more difficult but more rewarding. I would like to see more options for dungeons in the ZA/ZG tier, but at the same time, when the new dungeons come out, I hope they AREN'T batched with ZA/ZG, because I will want to see the new content. Maybe about halfway through 4.3 they can merge them.
jamie9966 Aug 22nd 2011 2:59PM
Except that the Zandalari also take twice as long as most of the launch HCs, so they kinda deserve to be double the reward, and stay that way.
However, I can totally see where you're coming from.
Aurilia Aug 22nd 2011 3:03PM
I don't run that many Zandalari myself. I simply don't need to.
210 VP from running normal BWD
120 VP from running BH
120 VP from killing 1 boss in Firelands
140 VP from running 1 Zandalari.
390 VP from running 6 Cataclysm heroics.
If the guild manages to squeeze in ToTW or BoT, this can eliminate the need to run a Zandalari that week altogether.
As a healer, I find BWD (and to a lesser extent, BoT) to be easier to run then the Zandalari, and while doing so helping gear up guildies that can still benefit from the gear to help out our Firelands raids.
Chan Aug 22nd 2011 3:39PM
I'm with you, and I don't do half the raiding that you do. My guild is hitting Firelands hard, so we don't have the time to do any of the last tier raids, so unless I join a PUG on a whim, I don't ever set foot in those raids. Still, I like to get as many VPs from regular heroics as I can because trolls PUGs can still be painful, and I'm just *so* sick of the same 2 dungeons over and over again. I run 2-3 trolls per week with guild groups and that's it. The monotony is more tolerable with a group of friends, after all, and 2-3 runs is about all we can get in when all of us are online at the same time.
My raid leader has been trying to set up teams to do BwD or BoT to gear up like your guild does, but for whatever reason, there's no interest. But I'm so sick of the trolls that I'd definitely do those raids every week in order to cut out even the limited troll runs I'm doing now.
Revynn Aug 22nd 2011 3:04PM
Yeah, I'm sick of the ZA/ZG farming as well. My only real gripe, however, is that 7 Troll dungeons actually rewards more VP than 7 FL bosses on 10M.
I don't mind VP being available to non-raiders and such, but it kinda pisses me off that heroic dungeons are actually more valuable to me than current raid bosses.
Gerbera Aug 22nd 2011 5:04PM
Because the loot that FL bosses drop, and the rep you get from killing them isn't valuable at all? Not saying it isn't lame - it is to a degree - but you are over simplifying things.