Patch 5.4 patch notes
Virtual Realms feature revealed
The Proving Grounds are coming
The latest patch 5.4 newsDoes the Rise of the Zandalari dungeon tier serve a purpose?
by Matthew Rossi 
Aug 22nd 2011 at 1:00PM
Patch 4.1 shook things up, and although patch 4.2 introduced a new raid, the same basic system that debuted in 4.1 is still with us. The Zandalari heroics not only dropped epic gear, they allowed non-raiders to collect twice as many valor points, a grand total of 980 valor points. It also allowed players to run heroics in a less limited fashion; you had up to seven in a week and you could run them once a day, all seven at once, or at any other rate you liked until you'd run your seven in a week's time. This was, overall, a positive change and one that allowed non-raiders to collect the tier gear available on vendors faster. Patch 4.2's change to the valor cap (reducing it to 980 in a week) meant that the Zandalari heroics could supply non-raiders with as many VPs as raiders got from raiding.
Now here we are, a couple of months into patch 4.2, and for the most part everyone's run the Zandalari heroics enough to be as fully geared as valor points make possible. Any pieces not available to non-raiders will have been picked up from the ZG/ZA loot table. I'd hazard a guess that a significant fraction of people go from leveling up straight to the Zandalari heroics, carried by justice point tier 11 epics that put them over the ilevel cap as soon as they hit 85, especially when they can also bank honor points and trade those for JPs or spend them on PVP weapons as good or better than the Zandalari items.
At this point, the Zandalari heroics are used to grind out valor points, then grind out justice points for supplemental items or heirlooms for alts. Yet the Zandalari heroics still give twice as many VPs, and when you're capped on VPs, reward twice as many JPs as the launch heroics. With the recent announcement of patch 4.3 coming with three new 5-man dungeons, we're moved to ask: Why not open up the heroics we have to more people?
Opening up the other eight heroics to the 140 VP/JP reward for completing them would basically be saying, "At this point, it's not the gear, it's the points" -- and frankly, that's exactly the case. With ilevel 365 gear available through dailies and crafting and ilevel 378 gear in the AH from Firelands farming, most players are farming up the valor pieces and items they can get and filling the holes they can't with JP purchases. With this as the case, it's simply not necessary to bestow special status on the Zandalari heroics at this point.
ZG and ZA are fine dungeons, well designed, a half-step harder than most of the heroics that came in with launch, but the gear curve is catching up to them, as it must to all things, and as a result, groups that are purely running dungeons to gear up an alt or two are subjected to a level of monotony that simply isn't in anyone's best interest. It would be far better if people whose main emphasis was running five mans could run them and get one out of 10 possible dungeons instead of one out of two.
Another difficulty here is one not everyone will agree with, but here it is: When the Cataclysm dungeons launched, their heroics were often very hard to pug. Months later, that's not the case -- so why not let groups that can finally stop and look at all that gorgeous scenery go in and do so? Dungeons like Halls of Origination, Throne of the Tides, Lost City of the Tol'vir and Vortex Pinnacle are magnificent dungeons in terms of art and layout. Their inclusion in the Rise of the Zandalari tier of reward would greatly break up what potential art and music we were going to be exposed to while farming for points.
With 4.3 a few months away, this is a change that could be made immediately and that would immediately relieve some of the tedium that is unavoidable when grinding points in the same two places over and over again. It would be as if the only BG worth running was Alterac Valley. No matter how much you like AV, you'd get sick of it eventually.
In the end, there simply appears to be no compelling reason to maintain the tier of reward difference between ZG/ZA and the rest of Cataclysm's heroics. For the benefit of everyone involved, for more reason to run these well designed, beautiful instances, and for a break from killing trolls over and over again, I can't see a downside to moving this particular content wall.
World of Warcraft: Cataclysm has destroyed Azeroth as we know it; nothing is the same! In WoW Insider's Guide to Cataclysm, you can find out everything you need to know about WoW's third expansion, from leveling up a new goblin or worgen to breaking news and strategies on endgame play.
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Raiding
Reader Comments (Page 5 of 6)
jlhealy Aug 22nd 2011 3:04PM
I run normal heroics. Even with gear, the mechanics in troll dungeons make them usually take far longer with PuGs. Plus, the normal heroics give heavenly shards which are currently worth more than maelstroms on my server - AND they drop a ton more cloth. In the time it takes to do ZA or ZG, I can run 2-3 normal heroics and come out with the same/more pts and more loot.
GEZUS Aug 22nd 2011 3:16PM
Just call current heroics Epic dungeon runs and tag em as such with graduated difficulty providing epic loot like Zul instances.
allsopp1 Aug 22nd 2011 3:30PM
Definitely agree with the author, making the reward 140 VP for all lvl 85 heroics makes a lot of sense. However, this should be accompanied by a nerf to ZA/ZG, since, perhaps somewhat surprisingly, these heroics are still largely a wipefest when pugged, even now at ~6 months post patch 4.1, and with most puggers sporting 365 ilvl gear. Most people (puggers) just don't know the fight mechanics, and even 365 ilvl gear does not allow you to 'brute force' your way thru most of the bosses. This is the reason why, even now with ilvl 370+ on my main, i do not pug ZA/ZG-- it's just pure misery. For the same reason, I will not attempt to pug the new 5-mans coming with path 4.3
tony.nguyen.enmax Aug 24th 2011 11:02AM
No. Za/Zg does not need ANOTHER nerf. If anything, buff up regular heroics to 140VP, and increase the difficulty. If you think that creates too big of a gap from normal to heroic, then keep heroic at 70VP. There is no reason whatsoever to nerf ZaZg again. They aren't a wipe fest. I pug it all the time and rarely wipe. You might be the one causing wipes perhaps? I've been in ZA/ZG with numerous undergearred roles, and still get through them just fine.
allsopp1 Aug 24th 2011 12:16PM
To Tony- Dude, then you must be getting lucky with your pug group my friend and be in a group on your own in skillz, perhaps I will have the good fortune of pugging with your toon one day, XD. As for me, my main is healer and Za/Zg is easy to heal, compared to raiding FL which is where I spend most of my WoW time-- but good heals isn't going to save from a wipe if tank or DPS is pulling on a whim, and the group is attacking every boss without a word on strat. That might, and does, work for the original Cata Heroics, but not for Za/Zg. Have a good look at the other posts to this article, you will see most agree with me.
Skye Aug 22nd 2011 3:33PM
I definitely agree with this. With the Wrath heroics and the new ones added with ICC they were automatically part of the random dungeon rotation so long as you met the ilvl requirement so there is no reason Blizzard can't implement this with the Cata heroics and it would be less dull than running ZA/ZG repeatedly.
doktorstick Aug 22nd 2011 3:38PM
It's quicker for me (as DPS) to queue for a regular heroic. I tend to get queued in 11-16 minutes whereas the troll heroics take 25-40 minutes. Given the generally shorter run times of the randoms (with the less stress from new or unskilled players), it's faster and easier to hit the cap going the regular heroic route.
Vogue Aug 22nd 2011 3:44PM
Rossi,
I'm sorry but you are wrong here. Why would anyone in their right mind run ZA/ZG if all Heroics gave you 140 VP? Especially since you can farm JP for 359 gear. They take twice as long - that's why they give you twice the reward. All this QQing will, if anything, make ALL heroics give you 70 VP.
The optimal (maximum) weekly Heroic round up is, I find,
6x"normal" heroics for 420 VP
4xZA/ZG for 560.
Sure you are running 3 'more', but it will probably take the same time and breaks up monotony quite a lot.
Kolonus Aug 22nd 2011 3:47PM
I am currently in the biggest warcraft rut I've been in since I started playing. I just haven't cared enough to log on, even with my determination to finish up the Molten Front progress. And this is the exact reason why. In addition to the summer doldrums, my guild only having enough people to keep one 10-man raid going, all I have to look forward to is the same 15 daily quests and a bunch of troll bosses that people still have trouble with the mechanics of. Is 4-6 hours of my day worth the 20 world tree marks and /hopefully/ a pittance of VPs? Not usually.
Jorges Aug 22nd 2011 3:52PM
"At present, if you wish to maximize your JP/VP rewards, there's simply no option but to run the Zandalari heroics. They reward more, and they have a larger pool of players."
This may be true on your realm/battlegroup, but on mine, running Zandalari dungeons is an utter waste of time when you're only farming VP/JP:
- Queue time goes from 25 to 35. Cata heroics have times of 10 mins or less.
- You have a great chance of being grouped with bad players, wich happens very frequently. Most of them just drop group and make the wait even longer. Zandalari runs need some skill. With Cata Heroics I just sometimes have to explain the fight and give pointers, no big deal. And since I'm over geared for them there's little danger if someting goes wrong. But 90% of the time the run goes pretty smooth.
- They are longer than Cata heroics, heck you have to mount to get around. A Zandalari run can last for as long as one hour and a half if you happen to be grouped with undergeared/learning players. A Cata run goes for 30 mins, maybe 45 if something went wrong.
- In the time I queue for Zandalari and finish the run, I can queue for Cata H 2 times and get the same amount of points. If you happen to continue with the same group, you can do more runs in less time.
- Cata runs are more forgiving if you make a mistake.
- Variety.
What I do is run one or more Cata H every night until I only have 3 Zandalari runs. Then, I run those 3 on the weekend and get my 980 VP. It works for me at least, and gives me lots of time to do something else, like pvp for example (you cannot queue for bgs if you're queued for dungeons).
Scooter Aug 22nd 2011 4:03PM
Personally I hate them. They took out the old raid which was fun to steamroll. added a few quests and called it all new content. I suppose it could be worked into the lore but it felt like it took away from the task at hand with the whole expansion.
threesixteen Aug 22nd 2011 4:05PM
pretty much all the dungeons are 'boring' now; and laughably easy with a group that doesn't have a rageface asshat in it... imo, valor and justice points should be given from ALL instances and raids no matter the level. we all race through them anyways; so what's the difference. everyone knows by this point in the game it's just the points people want. the artificial throttling of content and gear access by blizzard basically has turned the game into 'wait craft'. just wait a few weeks and either the content will get nerfed, the cost to buy the BOEs will go down, or the points will be given you in some other fashion.
the only purpose gating serves is to prevent the game from being 'over'. and aside from guilds that actually have a chance or care for progression "firsts" (tho at this point, everyone knows that these 'firsts' come so fast because most hardcore guilds already know the fights from the PTR) what is there for the rest of us but endless, dull repetition?
i basically just solo wow now; and i wish gruuls and hyjal and ony would drop a couple valor points just as cherries (like 5 per)... why not? what possible difference could it make? you can't buy the gear til 85 anyway; and it would open up all the old content to players who'd like a nice, solo relaxing nostalgia trip through mag's lair, or BC heroics or MC...
Zankoku Aug 22nd 2011 4:20PM
Most people want to cap as soon as possible or in the most efficient way. To do that, it means all Troll Heroics. With only two possible dungeons, it gets stale.
Yes, you could run "reg" Heroics to lower the number of Trolls you need to do to cap, but as you stated, it takes 2 regs to equal one troll. It will take considerably longer time to cap VP that way then by chaining Trolls.
Time to complete 2 regs is greater than most average single Troll, therefore you waste more time by running regs.
Add in the fact that past the cap, the most efficient way to max JP is to chain Trolls... well.. yea...
31 Jindo kills and 30 Daakara kills on my paladin (not counting fails, and I have stopped capping on him as JP serve him no purpose), 7 Jindo and 6 Daakara on my DK. DK dinged 85 after 4.2, and did one week of Reg Heroics before qualifying for Trolls.
Imagine that until 4.3 drops, you could only eat a ham sandwich or a pbj sandwich. How long would it take before you hated eating sandwiches?
Jaq Aug 22nd 2011 4:38PM
While I am sick to death of the Zuls, I will admit, if I have to run them, I run as many as possible on Tuesday and Wednesdays. That's when you find raiders who want to be able to cap their valor with whatever raiding they're doing, and the runs tend to go well. Beyond that, it starts turning into a crap shoot. 4.3 and three new five mans can't come too soon.
DarkWalker Aug 22nd 2011 5:08PM
Alternative ideas:
- Instead of a weekly raid quest as in WotLK, create a "Random Raid Boss" option in the LFD. Similar to the way seasonal bosses are handled, make it so when the random boss is defeated, a loot sachet is dropped for each player, with the points and a chance of an item from the boss' loot table. and don't lock the player to the boss from using the "Random Raid Boss" option.
- Remove locks from old raid tiers. Let players include chain runs of old raids together with (or instead of) the random heroics.
durandal Aug 22nd 2011 5:32PM
Good article! Imho, the best solution would be to adjust the VP you get from a heroic on the number of bosses you pwn. That way, also the optional bosses in the t11 heroics, the ones who are now mostly bypassed, will be done again.
On a side note, I really hope Blizz puts out one or two of the new 5man-dungeons a bit earlier than the 4.3 raid. I 'm not sure if I can stand the Zandalari tread mill till November or whenever 4.3 it's due...
Schadow Aug 22nd 2011 6:18PM
I'm a raid-geared tank in a casual raiding guild. We clear 4/7 bosses currently, so have a few VP to clear up afterward. I grind those off in trolls because it just takes 3 of them vs more heroics.
However, I have on occasion done heroics just to have a change of pace. I find the quality of players in heroics to be, quite frankly, terrible, but because I so far outgear the instances, they are still tolerable. I can skip some of the bosses and have some quick runs.
I can also have some painful ones when the DPS pull additional groups or simply can't play (2k DPS on a DK? Seriously?). In the end, I generally get frustrated from enabling terrible players, and head back to trolls.
I seldom wipe in "zandoms" - this is perhaps due to a higher quality of player running them, or perhaps it is because I explain what I want people to do on Jin - but they are SO grindy these days it's not funny. I am starved for variety.
Whenever we kill a new boss in FL, someone in the raid always says "Yay, one less troll instance I have to do". There is something wrong when the enjoyment of killing a boss for the first time is partly derived from lessening the post-raid VP grind.
Sally Bowls Aug 22nd 2011 6:43PM
3 T-12 plus ring and relic/wand is 7950 VP or 114 heroics or 57 trolls. I am not near that because life is too short to pug trolls.
Anything that reduces trolls is A Good Thing.
Ian Aug 22nd 2011 6:46PM
"At present, if you wish to maximize your JP/VP rewards, there's simply no option but to run the Zandalari heroics. They reward more, and they have a larger pool of players"
If this is the case, then how come my DPS queue for ZA/ZG is 30 minutes, and the one for "normal" heroics is 5-10 minutes?
The fact is that the troll dungeons can still screw up a PUG and take too long. In the time I can queue for and complete one Zandalari, I can do 2 or 3 "normal" heroics. In fact the other evening I did 5 "normals" in under 2 hours - it's much quicker for me, and I'm a warlock in a mixture of Tier 11 and Tier 12.
If the Zandalari dungeons get merged into the normal tier, I will scream. Right now I can queue for a very quick dungeon with no deaths and no drama. If I suddenly get the random chance of a session of pulling teeth in ZG I will not be a happy bunny. I go out of my way *not* to do the troll heroics - I'd rather do some raiding, do Baradin Hold and make up the rest with the quick heroics than go near another troll dungeon.
I'll take the double VP on the normals but do not want the randomness of getting a troll in the process.
Ominous Aug 22nd 2011 6:53PM
That's not even a question.
Of course they do.
They're a bridge, so that potential raiders can more easily stream into full raids.