Officers' Quarters: How different is too different?
by Scott Andrews 
Aug 22nd 2011 at 2:00PM
One of the most important things you can do when you start a new guild is to differentiate your community from other guilds on the server. When you offer a different experience or a different set of expectations from the typical guild, no matter how slight, you increase your chances of garnering attention and, thus, recruiting players who are attracted to those differences. It's a concept I've mentioned in a number of columns over the years.
But is there such a thing as differentiating too much? One guild leader wants to know:
Hello,
I'm Emir Ergenç from Turkey, i read your wowinsider column for a long time. And i really enjoy your writings.
Me and my girlfriend found a new guild named "Efsane" (meaning Legend in English) in our realm (Wildhammer-EU), i'm telling this to you for checking us :). Our website is efsane.guildomatic.com (although its Turkish). My characters are Alhara, Faelha, Eladia on guild. My girlfriend is guild leader and Shehrazad.
Together we wanted to form a Turkish speaking Rated Battleground guild. Our aim is to have about 14-20 members (we do not aim to be a big guild, but time will tell) and get high ratings (read: hardcore) in rated battlegrounds as Turkish people.
This is a very specific aim, thats where i started having some issues.
These are not huge issues really, but i need some of your insights . . .Hi, Emir.
We effectively recruited one member whose a good person and likes to play with us but that's it. When i write our message in general city chat, Turkish people asks which level we are (1), how many people we have (5, but 2 inactive members), how much rating we have (none) and become disappointed. I tell them we are new and we are trying our best but that didn't help since.
I believe in my guild, and i'm working hard to recruit. We made some rules, shared our insights about the guild in our site (in Turkish :) ). But limiting our aim (pvp) and audiance (only Turkish people) made recruiting very hard.
Now i see myself having 4 decisions.
- Keep our aim, audiance as it is and continue to find members like this and hope our new member doesn't leave us.
- Change our audiance, become international. (need to change guild names and write policies in English, thats not a problem. But i really believe a good communication in battlegrounds leads to victory, and its sometimes hard to communicate other than your native language with people)
- Change our aim. (i don't want to be another Turkish raiding guild, there are enough of them in our server. if i would like to do pve then i'll join one of them.)
- Change both of aim and audiance (no :) )
As i made my comments in parantheses doesn't mean that i'm a blind follower of decision number one. I just wanted share my feelings.
Thanks for replies in advance
By creating a guild for Turkish PVP players, you've certainly achieved the goal of offering a different experience than what's typical. However, it may be that you've specialized so much that you've eliminated too many potential recruits. After all, the farther you deviate from the norm, the fewer candidates for membership you are likely to find.
So it is certainly possible to differentiate your guild too much. It sounds like this might be the case here. If you had a stronger base to build from initially, it would be easier to pull off. Unfortunately, you don't have that luxury in this case.
Build a base
For now, I'd recommend relaxing your restrictions. We need to find a middle ground between a guild that's too typical and one that's so unique that no one wants to join. In this case, I'd recommend option 2.
That doesn't mean you have to give up on the goal. It's possible that you'll be able to evolve the guild into exactly what you want it to be in the future. However, you won't have a future without a base to build on.
I would recommend changing the idea of your guild from "Turkish only" to "Turkish-friendly." Believe it or not, there's a huge difference between those two phrases. "Only" is exclusive, but "friendly" is inclusive. "Only" pushes people away, while "friendly" draws them in. "Only" has the ring of elitism -- even prejudice in this case, if someone chooses to see it that way -- whereas "friendly" means just what it says.
Yes, you'll be recruiting some non-Turkish players, but in the long run, you'll attract more Turkish than you would otherwise. Plus, if a non-Turkish player can't handle the Turkish spin of the guild, they can't say they weren't warned.
A final word on recruiting
Successful recruitment tends to build on itself. Each player you bring in has the potential to bring in friends. Sometimes all it takes is to generate the interest of a single person who brings in enough other people to open the floodgates.
Remind people who question the guild's track record that you are a brand new community. Don't speak of that aspect as a drawback. Don't apologize for it. Talk about it as an opportunity for players who are looking for a fresh start in a guild without established cliques, favoritism, or jaded/absentee officers.
Be persistent in getting the word out about your guild, and be patient. Eventually, you will find the players you need.
/salute
Recently, Officers' Quarters has examined how strong new leadership can create a guild turnaround, the pitfalls of promising more than you can deliver, and lessons learned from Scott's own guild demise. Send your own guild-related questions and suggestions to scott@wowinsider.com.
Filed under: Officers' Quarters (Guild Leadership)
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
jtrack3d Aug 22nd 2011 2:14PM
The new Guild Level system has killed recruiting. The only way to get a new player into your guild is to already be a level 25, or at least 20+ guild that is filling in the gaps. Unless you really don't care about guild perks ( a rare player indeed ), most players will pass.
It has nothing to do with your other "guidelines" which used to be what differentiated the guilds. Now it is...
You are a level 25 guild that is raiding AND the guidelines.. Then your guidelines matter... other wise... you are just hoping you get players.
imm110 Aug 22nd 2011 2:52PM
Not so sure about that. He's not looking for raiders, and he's not looking to turn the guild into an alt-leveling machine; he's specifically looking for hardcore PvP (R-BG) players. So almost all of the guild perks are absolutely useless. Assuming they will be successful in R-BG's, they won't have hardly any need for even the faster-honor-perk with all the Conquest Points pouring in.
Players who have alts to level can leave their alts in those level 25 guilds they are at...
Players who want to raid too... well now they have a choice to make, but there are plenty of pure-PvP'ers out there who would just as easily give up all "useless" guild-perks to be in a rockin' R-BG group that dominates while speaking their native tongue.
@ Emir -- best of luck to you sir! I definitely agree with the author though. Start by saying "turkish friendly" and just get the best PvP'ers you can. Achieving R-BG successes will eventually bring the people you want.
raingod Aug 22nd 2011 2:54PM
Sorry, but that's a load of bs. A friend and I started a guild a few months ago, and currently at level 6. We currently have 68 members half of which are active on a regular basis. It takes work, but far from impossible.
jtrack3d Aug 22nd 2011 3:02PM
Yes, rated BG groups don't need perks if they are level 85. So, he'd be sniping free-agent 85s or some that leveled in another guild. 10% XP bonus, faster mounts, bountiful bags, etc all make for leveling faster. How useful is a level 10 rated BG player.
It's not "BS", it is much harder to recruit now than it was. The flip side... people stay longer too.
Noyou Aug 22nd 2011 4:48PM
Couldn't disagree with you more. My little guild was level 1 just like everyone else when cata started. I think we were around level 10 or so when the Looking for Guild feature rolled out. Two days ago we hit lvl 19. There are a couple phenomena I have noticed. 1. people love to apply to join your guild and then not log on. Ever. I have a whole list of them. 2. people seem to like to join a guild and then either rarely play or not log on again.
If it wasn't for the Looking for guild feature my guild would be slowly limping along struggling to find members. As it is now we have a steady stream of new players coming into the guild at about 5-10 a week. We are a small guild, so this is pretty good for us.
xSushi Aug 22nd 2011 6:23PM
I helped resurrect a guild from 4 members in blues in early 2010 to become a 10 and 25 man raiding group of Lich King defeating players. Since then the GM had a falling-out with his officers and members over the direction of the guild in moving away from casual toward hardcore with very strict rules. The Cataclysm not only broke apart Azeroth but my guild as members scattered about their own ways (other realms, factions, games etc).
After a break for a few weeks I started looking for other guilds and couldn't find one where I felt I fit in, or was accepted for anything other than a stat. I decided to use the experience of helping manage my previous guild in creating what I couldn't find in May of 2011.
My experience in recruiting has exponentially increased in difficulty from even a year ago. I too have found that Guild Perks have deterred a number of potentials recruits from considering joining my guild. I've made friends with people who will join my raid groups yet remain hostage to their current guilds for fear of losing perks or rep,
Needless to say pushing forward beyond this hinderance people will show interest in you when you show interest in them. The verbiage you use is incredibly important and I find myself tweaking ad's in forums and websites constantly. Make sure you go the extra mile to speak to people individually and don't just copy and paste a few things in response. Let them know you want your guild to be the right place for their needs instead of you looking for the right person. Establish a relationship, ask questions about their game history or themselves.
I guess I'm just trying to say… when I adjusted my attitude toward how I approached things I found that people started adjusting theirs toward how they felt about a new guild and found value in a smaller network of friends who have a similar mindset instead of being stuck in a large guild of strangers.
Ad134 Aug 23rd 2011 5:31AM
I predicted this would happen right when guild perks were first introduced. I believe I said it in a comment on here. Just like what happened with gearscore, people are caught in a catch-22 with their guilds, unable to get new members unless they have leveled up, levelling up requiring new members.
Guild perks seem like a good idea on paper, but the fact that they were implemented in their current state shows that Blizzard have lost touch with gamers. First the Diablo 3 always-on fiasco, and now guild perks acting as a barrier, not a helping hand, it seems that Blizz have gone too long without an actual gamer at the helm.
It may seem like blasphemy to some, but Blizzard need someone new leading them. They have spend too long at the top and they can't predict player response any more. Perks should have been scrapped from day one. Early on, sure, they were fine, but as time has passed, players have become more snobby towards lower level guilds.
I like the guild achievement system, but IMHO it should be cosmetic only. No rewards. No perks. At the most, perks should give mounts and vanity pets. Not heirlooms.
Peebers Aug 22nd 2011 2:32PM
I'm going to Istanbul in January. I'm fuckin stoked!
Matthew Aug 22nd 2011 5:52PM
Lucky you! Why was this downrated, I dunno.
Kole Aug 23rd 2011 1:55AM
Not Constantinople? :D
Peebers Aug 23rd 2011 2:45AM
haters gonna hate!
Cbeefman Aug 22nd 2011 3:00PM
I need some help. I am an officer and raider in my guild, we're not the most advanced guild in terms of boss kills but we get there eventually. We didnt fully clear T-11 until the 4.2 nerfs (we were at 9/12 prior to the patch with the end bosses of each raid giving us hell). Needless to say, once the patch hit we arranged our raid schedule to be "one night firelands, one night finishing off T-11" Once we got them down, every scheduled raid since then has been firelands. However, we have YET been able to slay even one boss. Yup, two months later, we still wipe like crazy to Beth'tilac and only did one half a nights worth of Shannox attempts.
So now to my problem. My Fiance, who is also one of the raiders, and I have both been pushing hard to gear up between raids, getting valor capped each week etc. I BELIEVE others have been doing the same as well because I know I see these raiders getting new stuff all the time. So last night, firelands raid is about to start and the raid leader announces "we're going to do Heroic Halfus" to which i swiftly respond in officer chat with "WTF? I'd rather (do something unpleasant) with a monkey" than go back to do old junk content on our raid nights. Arguments follow which result in my fiance and I logging off infront of Firelands where I believe we are supposed to be at this stage, with a message saying "send me a message on twitter if i'm needed for current content". I get a message later in the night saying something along the lines of people needing the extra gear to push them over the edge.
TL;DR
Do you think Heroic raid drops from T-11 are needed to bridge the gap between tiers for a less than hardcore raid group?
FYI, i checked us all out on armory and only one person is way below the avg of the rest(he is at 360 iLvL and everyone else is 368-372)
Alexa Aug 22nd 2011 3:04PM
To answer your last question: No. You don't need heroic T11 gear to be successful in T12, whether you're hardcore or casual.
Given the scenario you describe in your post, it sounds like there may be something going in your guild that may be contributing to your lack of Firelands success.
jtrack3d Aug 22nd 2011 3:08PM
@CBeefman, It isn't that you didn't want to do H-mode that would tick me off, it is how you approach it. A simple, "sorry boss, but I'm really tired of those raids and would rather hit firelands... I'll just sit out and give my mind a rest" is much better than a freak out in the officers channels.
However, sometimes it isn't about you, but about being there for the guild. You aren't an island. Many times I hit content I don't want to because it helps someone else.
Vjax Aug 22nd 2011 3:19PM
If you're scheduled for X raid and the raid leader pops on and changes the venue I think that you should definately be able to say no thanks. As for needing T11H, not at all, there are enough trash drops/crafted/valor/jp gear to make pretty much any toon FL-N ready in less than 2 weeks. I agree with above, sounds like there is more going on with raid composition and ability than gear.
LynMars Aug 22nd 2011 3:41PM
No, you don't need heroic T11. My guild's never touched heroics and we're doing fine with Valor gear, Troll gear, and what we still have from normal T11 raids. It sounds like people aren't getting the strategies down/paying attention/doing necessary jobs in favor of Moar Deepz/etc. Some guild forum posts about strategies and videos may be useful. Also, if you're rotating people in and out a lot, that can slow you down--it's happened to us, to the point where the raid leader has restricted "raid mains" versus "alts who have good enough gear only if necessary."
We've started running a Valor-farming night for people who can't cap during the week normally so they can get gear upgrades. This usually happens on our non-progression raid night (we raid 2 nights a week, one Firelands, one T11 and/or Valor farming).
There should have been more warning than a few minutes on what content was being run that night, but blowing up in channel and logging off in a snit wasn't the way to respond to it. That makes it more about YOURSELF and less about THE GUILD.
Not to mention, the rest of the guild's likely getting frustrated beating their heads on content they should be able to get down, but can't, and only racking up more repair bills rather than new loot and boss kills. It could be that taking on a Heroic T11 could be both a new challenge and give people back the raid confidence they need to continue progression--if you've not done Heroic content, that doesn't mean it's a walk in the park because you've seen those bosses in Normal, after all. But it may be enough to get people back on their feet and some extra gear to boot.
Frankly, if I were your raid lead I'd sit you for a couple weeks if possible, until there was an honest apology and a desire to help the guild rather than throw fits because you'd rather farm a repair bill than help guildmates that are obviously struggling. Or find out what YOU may be doing wrong that's holding the team back--sometimes it takes swallowing pride and self-analyzing to make sure it's not you standing in the fire or DPSing the wrong target to boost meter counts.
Sunaseni Aug 22nd 2011 3:42PM
No, you don't need H T11 to down Firelands bosses. However, you picked the wrong boss to start off with, as Beth'tilac very much tests your gear. If you are undergeared, it's harder killing all of the spiders in time, surviving the massive AOE, and healing through all of the damage. A much easier boss to start off with is Shannox. There is comparatively very little AOE damage, much easier DPS requirements, and focuses more on skillful execution than out gearing the various mechanics.
My guild only cleared T11 the week before the nerfs hit, so we didn't have ANY heroic gear, just decked out in pretty much full 359. Beth'tilac was hell on the healers, while Shannox was something we could do as it only required proper execution. After some time feeding off of Shannox's drops and gathering BOEs and rep gear, we finally downed Beth, and quickly did Baleroc and Rhyolith soon after. With the Firelands, you don't have to focus on one boss first because it is "conventional". My team did Baleroc (conventionally 5th) before Rhyolith (conventionally second or third), because the controlled placement and movement was a lot easier for us to accomplish rather than the crap on the screen explosion and RNG of Rhyolith.
Telwar Aug 22nd 2011 4:15PM
If your raid's average item level is in the mid 360s, and you can't get any boss down, that's a sign that the raid's skill is the problem. Gear can make up for a lot, but if your raiders can't stay out of traps on Shannox, all the gear in the world can't make up for the lost dps and/or heals.
Cbeefman Aug 22nd 2011 4:24PM
Thanks again everyone, I replied already but comment system fooled me.
I will be apologizing tonight for my little fit.
Also, at the risk of sounding arrogant/cocky/etc, I highly doubt I am the problem.
I also agree with the issue of switching boss fights, which I feel is what we should have done last night instead although I completely forgot to mention that last night. The half a night of shannox attempts we did was very early on in the patch life so we should do much better if we try again.
Oddly enough, it's sort of a "guild thing" to start with the harder boss.
BWD, wiped and wiped on Magmaw, then proceeded to one-three shot everything else
BoT, started with the hardest drake combo, on purpose (storm, slate, nether)
I'm very willing to break this "tradition" though haha, I just want to kill something new!
Noyou Aug 22nd 2011 4:55PM
If you were an "officer" in my guild you would be booted and looking for another guild. You sound like a fairly selfish little seahorse, even for a raider. You and your girlfriend logging off in a childish protest is unacceptable behavior. Your guild leader could have maybe handled it better by asking prior to raid night but even if he didn't stuff comes up sometimes.