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8-22-2011 @ 3:00PM
I need some help. I am an officer and raider in my guild, we're not the most advanced guild in terms of boss kills but we get there eventually. We didnt fully clear T-11 until the 4.2 nerfs (we were at 9/12 prior to the patch with the end bosses of each raid giving us hell). Needless to say, once the patch hit we arranged our raid schedule to be "one night firelands, one night finishing off T-11" Once we got them down, every scheduled raid since then has been firelands. However, we have YET been able to slay even one boss. Yup, two months later, we still wipe like crazy to Beth'tilac and only did one half a nights worth of Shannox attempts. So now to my problem. My Fiance, who is also one of the raiders, and I have both been pushing hard to gear up between raids, getting valor capped each week etc. I BELIEVE others have been doing the same as well because I know I see these raiders getting new stuff all the time. So last night, firelands raid is about to start and the raid leader announces "we're going to do Heroic Halfus" to which i swiftly respond in officer chat with "WTF? I'd rather (do something unpleasant) with a monkey" than go back to do old junk content on our raid nights. Arguments follow which result in my fiance and I logging off infront of Firelands where I believe we are supposed to be at this stage, with a message saying "send me a message on twitter if i'm needed for current content". I get a message later in the night saying something along the lines of people needing the extra gear to push them over the edge.TL;DRDo you think Heroic raid drops from T-11 are needed to bridge the gap between tiers for a less than hardcore raid group?FYI, i checked us all out on armory and only one person is way below the avg of the rest(he is at 360 iLvL and everyone else is 368-372)
8-22-2011 @ 3:04PM
To answer your last question: No. You don't need heroic T11 gear to be successful in T12, whether you're hardcore or casual.Given the scenario you describe in your post, it sounds like there may be something going in your guild that may be contributing to your lack of Firelands success.
8-22-2011 @ 3:08PM
@CBeefman, It isn't that you didn't want to do H-mode that would tick me off, it is how you approach it. A simple, "sorry boss, but I'm really tired of those raids and would rather hit firelands... I'll just sit out and give my mind a rest" is much better than a freak out in the officers channels.However, sometimes it isn't about you, but about being there for the guild. You aren't an island. Many times I hit content I don't want to because it helps someone else.
8-22-2011 @ 3:19PM
If you're scheduled for X raid and the raid leader pops on and changes the venue I think that you should definately be able to say no thanks. As for needing T11H, not at all, there are enough trash drops/crafted/valor/jp gear to make pretty much any toon FL-N ready in less than 2 weeks. I agree with above, sounds like there is more going on with raid composition and ability than gear.
8-22-2011 @ 3:41PM
No, you don't need heroic T11. My guild's never touched heroics and we're doing fine with Valor gear, Troll gear, and what we still have from normal T11 raids. It sounds like people aren't getting the strategies down/paying attention/doing necessary jobs in favor of Moar Deepz/etc. Some guild forum posts about strategies and videos may be useful. Also, if you're rotating people in and out a lot, that can slow you down--it's happened to us, to the point where the raid leader has restricted "raid mains" versus "alts who have good enough gear only if necessary."We've started running a Valor-farming night for people who can't cap during the week normally so they can get gear upgrades. This usually happens on our non-progression raid night (we raid 2 nights a week, one Firelands, one T11 and/or Valor farming).There should have been more warning than a few minutes on what content was being run that night, but blowing up in channel and logging off in a snit wasn't the way to respond to it. That makes it more about YOURSELF and less about THE GUILD. Not to mention, the rest of the guild's likely getting frustrated beating their heads on content they should be able to get down, but can't, and only racking up more repair bills rather than new loot and boss kills. It could be that taking on a Heroic T11 could be both a new challenge and give people back the raid confidence they need to continue progression--if you've not done Heroic content, that doesn't mean it's a walk in the park because you've seen those bosses in Normal, after all. But it may be enough to get people back on their feet and some extra gear to boot.Frankly, if I were your raid lead I'd sit you for a couple weeks if possible, until there was an honest apology and a desire to help the guild rather than throw fits because you'd rather farm a repair bill than help guildmates that are obviously struggling. Or find out what YOU may be doing wrong that's holding the team back--sometimes it takes swallowing pride and self-analyzing to make sure it's not you standing in the fire or DPSing the wrong target to boost meter counts.
8-22-2011 @ 3:42PM
No, you don't need H T11 to down Firelands bosses. However, you picked the wrong boss to start off with, as Beth'tilac very much tests your gear. If you are undergeared, it's harder killing all of the spiders in time, surviving the massive AOE, and healing through all of the damage. A much easier boss to start off with is Shannox. There is comparatively very little AOE damage, much easier DPS requirements, and focuses more on skillful execution than out gearing the various mechanics.My guild only cleared T11 the week before the nerfs hit, so we didn't have ANY heroic gear, just decked out in pretty much full 359. Beth'tilac was hell on the healers, while Shannox was something we could do as it only required proper execution. After some time feeding off of Shannox's drops and gathering BOEs and rep gear, we finally downed Beth, and quickly did Baleroc and Rhyolith soon after. With the Firelands, you don't have to focus on one boss first because it is "conventional". My team did Baleroc (conventionally 5th) before Rhyolith (conventionally second or third), because the controlled placement and movement was a lot easier for us to accomplish rather than the crap on the screen explosion and RNG of Rhyolith.
8-22-2011 @ 4:15PM
If your raid's average item level is in the mid 360s, and you can't get any boss down, that's a sign that the raid's skill is the problem. Gear can make up for a lot, but if your raiders can't stay out of traps on Shannox, all the gear in the world can't make up for the lost dps and/or heals.
8-22-2011 @ 4:24PM
Thanks again everyone, I replied already but comment system fooled me.I will be apologizing tonight for my little fit. Also, at the risk of sounding arrogant/cocky/etc, I highly doubt I am the problem. I also agree with the issue of switching boss fights, which I feel is what we should have done last night instead although I completely forgot to mention that last night. The half a night of shannox attempts we did was very early on in the patch life so we should do much better if we try again. Oddly enough, it's sort of a "guild thing" to start with the harder boss. BWD, wiped and wiped on Magmaw, then proceeded to one-three shot everything elseBoT, started with the hardest drake combo, on purpose (storm, slate, nether)I'm very willing to break this "tradition" though haha, I just want to kill something new!
8-22-2011 @ 4:55PM
If you were an "officer" in my guild you would be booted and looking for another guild. You sound like a fairly selfish little seahorse, even for a raider. You and your girlfriend logging off in a childish protest is unacceptable behavior. Your guild leader could have maybe handled it better by asking prior to raid night but even if he didn't stuff comes up sometimes.
8-22-2011 @ 5:09PM
Heroic kills in T11 boost guild standing.They are also, theoretically, a way to keep confidence up if the group has better skill with mechanics they already know.You and your fiance are thinking about the good of both of you, while the GL has to think about the entire raiding group and how they feel about wiping for two months.Is it possible you are in the minority, and the GL is just going with what the most players want, or what is best for the guild as a whole instead of two players?
8-22-2011 @ 5:37PM
I've been a raider forever and I seriously believe it's just down to player skill at this point. @Nadia, in fairness, it was just me and my fiance that were objecting to the tier 11 so in that light we are in the minority, however i believe that's because we kept the argument to officer chat(i didn't want it spilling into guild/raid chat). I have not asked the others but just judging from what appears to be dedication, 8/10 armory profiles show gear well above what is commonly believed to be a minimum for firelands (5/10 people even have 2-piece T-12 bonuses already) so as I said above, it's down to player skill.@Noyou, I have already owned up to the behavior so there was no need to attack me. I'm pretty sure I would never have been in your guild in the first place for you to kick me for ONE offence.
8-22-2011 @ 9:42PM
T11 Hmode gear is unneeded. My guild was having problems with Beth for weeks and we finally decided to change our strat from what was suggested on various forums to one that better suited our group comp and we 1 shotted her with the new strat and every week since. I would suggest getting in more attempts on Shannox, he is by far the easiest boss and getting him on farm can help bridge any gap in gearing to push out that extra few numbers in damage to get Beth down. Also try switching up what you do with Beth, if your dps is decent (16k - 20k) you can push her from nearly 100% HP to 0 with good raid heals. People say you need top notch, 30k+ dps to do this, but my group did it a couple of times when an overzealous warrior jumped in and didn't let me (a lock) get a Bane of Havoc onto Beth before she jumped up.Having all of your DPS on the bottom to take care of the chaos is definitely a huge bonus and makes hitting p2 sooo much easier. Even if you can't take her from full to death before the soft enrage it is a good idea just so the raid can see how smooth and easy p1 is when everything is dying on time and may help get the dps to organize a little better when one of them has to go up top to chip away at her health.Unfortunately if you have been hitting p2 with her at 70 - 80% HP and still not getting the kill then there are more problems to be addressed than I can help you with.Just be assured that it isn't gear, pushing those heals and dps numbers takes a lot more than higher ilevel gear and having everybody a few points higher in ilevel won't make a lick of difference unless your wipes are at 5% or under.
8-23-2011 @ 8:49AM
This question is for Chance, the poster above me: What was the unconventional strategy you used to down Beth'tilac? It sounds like you left all DPS down below rather than sending one up above, but was there more to than that? Thanks!
8-24-2011 @ 5:18AM
Erm... don't know about you guys but I've always found Heroic T11 (ok bar Haifus) to be harder than either Shannox or Beth'tilac.If the RL was looking to just farm that single heroic boss then fine but if you were looking to progress on the heroic modes then it would not be easier than doing normal Firelands.Still, your little hissy fit was unbecoming your position. As an officer, you do what is needed and what is best for the guild. GM and officers need to show a united front as well, guild members want to see leadership that knows what it is doing, not infighting.
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