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8-25-2011 @ 6:08PM
Atleast for the LFD, there is one thing that Blizz cannot change that would bring in more tanks. And that is the player attitude.
8-25-2011 @ 6:14PM
sadly, I think you just hit the nail on it's tiny, pointy, pimply head.
8-25-2011 @ 6:37PM
I read the whole article expecting him to go: just kidding it's about the poor attitude towards tanks. Some tanks are divas that deserve ridicule. Some tanks are new and deserve your help. Some tanks are good and deserve to be told so.Figuring which is which isn't hard with a bit of understanding.They fight the players AND take care of the mobs. Give them a break.Thanks for reading my disjointed pre-morning coffee (tis in the plunger!!) thoughts.
8-25-2011 @ 7:07PM
And yet, if every class had a tanking tree - even if it were sub-par - I think that issue would lighten somewhat. Tank leaves? The warlock can pop metamorphosis (losing their demon but able to stay in that form indefinitely). The warlock leaves? The rogue can go combat, with a 400% increase in armor, increased dodge and parry, extra energy but less yellow damage. Oh, the rogue forgot to dual spec for combat? No problem, we have a beast master hunter who literally "becomes" their tenacity pet and can tank in that form.I suspect some of the shenanigans in the dungeon finder occur because there are limitations. You know, it's easy to find DPS, harder to find healers and tanks. If every class could at least tank *somewhat*, as a filler until a "pure tank" came along, I think it might make dungeons a bit better. As the saying goes, you never *really* appreciate how much the tank does until you have to do it yourself. (Ditto healers.)
8-25-2011 @ 7:37PM
So much this! As a longtime tank in three of the four tanking classes, I have to say, the problem isn't the role, it's the players. Just go to the tanking forum: New tanks are terrified not of the responsibility, but of the outlash they will likely get if they fail. And stating you're a new tank at the get-go gives you a roughly 50% chance that at least one of your players will just drop group then and there. Tanking is a lot of fun, but I hate tanking for random dungeon groups. It's the only role where I feel like I'm fighting against my group, not the monsters.
8-25-2011 @ 9:36PM
"And yet, if every class had a tanking tree - even if it were sub-par - I think that issue would lighten somewhat. Tank leaves? The warlock can pop metamorphosis (losing their demon but able to stay in that form indefinitely)."I don't think that would solve very much. That's like expecting every pally, warrior, DK and druid to have a tank spec, and many do not. Not only do you need the spec, but you also need the gear because I'm sure everyone have come across a "tank" that clearly did not have the appropriate gear.
8-25-2011 @ 9:39PM
sadly it's not just tanks. Healers have this problem as well. For example to day I was trying to run ZA and ended up getting kicked from the group because I was a "bad" healer, even though for some reason 2 pally tanks couldn't hold aggro for shit and I ended up dying. Such crap with stupid people.
8-25-2011 @ 10:26PM
How I would "fix" the LFD:- Make the iLvl chech actually worth something. Make it compute the score per role (so it does not send a DPS/Tank with good DPS gear but abysmal Tank gear as a Tank into the harder instances) dock points for sporting useless stats (Resilience, off spec stats), and take into account gemming and enchanting.- Create training grounds / tests for each role. Make the test part fast (5 minutes), add a daily reward for performing well in them (perhaps 10 JP, counted against the Random Heroic dungeon weekly limit of JP), and force any player who didn't complete a heroic dungeon the previous week or month to complete the test for each role he wants to queue for.- A simple check that only allows a player to queue for a Heroic if he actually has a spec for that role.
8-25-2011 @ 10:34PM
The easiest of your suggestions Dark is the change to iLvl, specifically PvP gear having an iLvl of 1. Another semi-easy programming change is if any of your "armor" gear does not match your class level 50 armor spec, give it half iLvl, and stop counting bag/bank gear for the iLvl.
8-25-2011 @ 11:30PM
"- Create training grounds / tests for each role. Make the test part fast (5 minutes), add a daily reward for performing well in them (perhaps 10 JP, counted against the Random Heroic dungeon weekly limit of JP), and force any player who didn't complete a heroic dungeon the previous week or month to complete the test for each role he wants to queue for."In other words, create a system that frustrates the hell out of casuals?The biggest problem with the game is the attitude of other players towards tanks. They flame rather than helping, cc rarely, and regularly open up the dps floodgates before the pulled mobs can even reach you. Yelling "GOGOGOGOGO" is even worse. I deliberately slow down when they do, and inform them that I don't mind dropping group and finding another in 0 seconds flat.
8-25-2011 @ 11:29PM
Phaelan - could also be a DPS fail. A good DPS knows when to deliberately rip threat to pull a mob off the healer. But yeah, a tank's priorities should be, in order: 1. Don't die. 2. Don't let your healer die. 3. Build threat. 4. Don't let a DPS player die. And yes, I've played all roles. If a DPS player dies before you have threat, well, that's their fault (not a major problem anymore, thankfully, but I can still pull threat on my arcane mage if I start a fight with 4 AB stacks). But as a mage, I can easily survive a few hits from an add if I have to, and I'll often peel one off the healer if the tank is busy. Frost Nova, Blink, Ice Block, then Invis and hope the tank has threat above the healer by then. It's not hard, and there's really no excuse for anyone to let the healer die unless the healer is standing in fire or runs away from the tank (on Ahune - ARGH that gave me the shits when I was tanking it).Snuzzle is right too. My first time tanking Stonecore (heroic, having never done normal - oops), the healer dropped group the moment I warned him. Took the third healer to have the guts to try it. As it turned out I didn't get past Ozruk, had to go learn the fight on normal first, but the group I ended up with were really good about it.
8-25-2011 @ 11:45PM
@brain314Spot on analysis. Today, I was in a Wrath dungeon on my fury warrior alt with a kitty Druid, DK tank, Mage, and Pally heals. The tank was all sorts of fail, and rather than listen to suggestions (3 of the 4 of us had main tanks) he bailed. None of us were offspecced for tanking, but I donned a shield, switched to defensive stance, and tanked fury. When I had trouble holding aggro, the Druid went bear for a sec. Piece of cake. I actually thought to myself: "Why isn't tanking like this by design where several (or all) classes could take up the duty with just minor adjustments rather than whole spec changes?"I think it would add much more flavor to the game.
8-26-2011 @ 3:51AM
I agree. I like my protection warrior a lot but I don't relish the idea of being verbally abused in lfd.
8-26-2011 @ 7:59AM
As a tank, this one is more of the main reason I do not pug tank in LFD. No IF, AND, or BUTS about it.It is also why tanks that do LFD are diva's... they "know" they are good because they have put up with crap from DPS long enough to learn every stupid thing that will be tossed at them and what they are willing or not to put up with.AGAIN, LFD is part of the problem in so many ways. Without it, you had to play with people on your server that got to know you. You had a reputation. Made friends. With LFD, all other people in that 5-man are not even alive, they are NPC's providing you a service... make this a fast run, I want those VP, there is nothing in here for me... GO GO GO or I will FIRE YOU "kick". You're gear will make this slow, "kick"... you can't hold threat "kick", I WANT MY VP. This is lousy service... where is the management!
8-26-2011 @ 9:13AM
Tanking can be alot of fun I don't necessarily think that you need to change the trinity Idea. But when you have 3 different dps hitting 3 different targets and only 1 of them are hitting the "skull". When you mark then call for CC and they sheep the skull. When you have dps running ahead and pulling mobs to "speed" up a run. Hell i had a healer run into the next room to pull mobs to me while we were killing a boss. I didn't know what happened till I saw him run ahead yelling GO GO GO GO as he ran into the next pack. It's not the roll its the troll(sorry about that) that make tanks not queue up. I know this is off topic but its the reason i queue up as frost and not blood anymore. Truly spikey, health just plummeted, missed a death strike or have to reapply diseases now I am dead disparity between DK's and every other tank.
8-26-2011 @ 10:29AM
I think people exaggerate the "player attitude" problem. 95% of players in my pugs have a decent attitude. I run into more underperformers than poor attitudes. Maybe I have a more tolerant nature, or maybe I am just lucky? I think it is human nature to forget about the 19 guys that had good attitudes, and remember the one A-hole.
8-26-2011 @ 11:12AM
I could not agree more. I was moving around the country when Cata came out, and when I could play again a month after release, my ICC geared Druid tank was left in the dust. I did not know any of the encounters, did not have good gear, and really did not want to hear from people whining about me being a "noob" because real life had kept me from leveling the same time most people were.I have run the gamut on tanking. I have been called a noob and been thrown out of PUGs and I have main tanked ICC. I have even tanked a couple raids in Cata (I'm completely casual now) and I have run all of the dungeons, but I still don't want that tanking mantle back in randoms. Why? Because I don't need the added stress and conflict in my life put created by rude players. I have every role in the game with multiple classes, and my experience is that people expect next to nothing from DPS, for heals to keep them alive, and for tanks to be their personal menservants, running the instance in the way they see fit.Please note that this is by no means a universal truth. Most groups are downright decent people who all just want to have a little fun. But the fear of just how much the jerks turn one of my hobbies into a chore makes me fine with just queuing up DPS and putting up with the wait.Oh, and for everyone saying deduct for somebody with Resil on their gear, I'll grab pieces of PVP to gear up my Druid, and sometimes there simply are not better pieces outside of raiding.
8-26-2011 @ 1:29PM
@zank...I was going to say it but you beat me to it...its why im hesitant to tank anymore...its not worth the heartache and the tards.
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