The OverAchiever: Why Icecrown was less fun than Sunwell
Every Thursday, The Overachiever shows you how to work toward those sweet achievement points. This week, we contemplate the effect wrought by raid achievements.
Achievements as a whole are great for World of Warcraft; they ask you to look at the game a bit differently, to create challenges for yourself, and to get involved with zones and stories that you might otherwise ignore. Unfortunately, they can also spur players and guilds to approach raid content in a way that's not necessarily fulfilling for all concerned.
Since Wrath of the Lich King, I've slowly gotten the sense that raiding as a whole is much less rewarding than it used to be, and this is a sentiment that's been echoed by a number of other players. Unfortunately, achievements -- originally intended to add another means of accomplishment to raids -- may well be among the causes.
EDIT: This article resulted in a lot of discussion, and the subject was revisited two weeks later. You'll find it here, at OverAchiever: Reconsidering achievements and raids.
Raiding before achievements
During classic WoW and The Burning Crusade, raiding's difficulty lay in the encounters themselves. In the total absence of achievements and heroic modes, beating an encounter was itself the achievement. There were no drakes given for the completion of raid content, there were no "nerd points" associated with your first kill, and you knew exactly where a tier 5 guild that advertised itself as "3/4 TK and 5/6 SSC" on the recruitment forums lay in the game's internal pecking order. Beating a boss even once was enough to give your raiders an enormous sense of accomplishment, and your guild could rest somewhat, secure in the knowledge that advancing gear and greater experience would make the content increasingly easy to do.
While this meant that getting keyed was a big deal -- and it was the mark of a good (or at least competent) player simply to be among those with the privilege of accessing Mount Hyjal and Black Temple -- this raiding model wasn't necessarily good for the game as a whole. The appellation "guild-killer" grew out of the existence of notoriously difficult encounters like Kael'thas, Lady Vashj, Brutallus, and M'uru, all of whom needed to be killed even to see later raid content, much less beat it. Unfortunately, the phrase was no myth. Countless guilds broke up while trying to hurdle bosses with truly difficult mechanics, probably because the inability to progress inevitably exaggerated any existing fault lines within a guild.
Developers also found themselves programming for what was said to be less than 1% of the playerbase at times. Most people simply did not belong to guilds that were capable of getting past bosses like Kael'thas, and so the vast majority of the game's characters languished in a sort of no-man's-land at the level cap once they had exhausted options from battlegrounds (in classic) and badge gear/heroics (in BC).
The advancing raid model
Consequently, Blizzard altered its approach to raid content in the transition to Wrath of the Lich King. Keying requirements are largely a thing of the past, and the greater portion of difficulty associated with raiding has been stripped and reassigned. In Wrath and Cataclysm, a raid encounter's true challenge is determined by the annoyance value of the accompanying achievement(s) and/or the encounter's degree of difficulty on heroic. Encounters like Lady Deathwhisper and the Conclave of Wind weren't particularly tough on normal mode, but they were reasonably challenging on heroic, and then became a real pain in the ass once you added their respective achievements (Full House and Stay Chill, at least before the latter was nerfed).
Developers experimented with different means of adding achievements to raid content, first trying a model where achievements were themselves the "heroic" versions of encounters in tiers 7 and 8 (Naxxramas, Malygos, Sartharion, and Ulduar), and then settling in tiers 9, 10, 11, and 12 for turning heroic into a mode that must be toggled. The problem with this model is that, while it solves the issues presented by the bottlenecked raids and players in classic WoW and The Burning Crusade, it creates others. Guilds are eventually obliged to confront achievements, because that's where the most tangible rewards of raiding now belong. Raid progression on its own is no longer enough.
The raid that never ends
One of the sadder things I've noticed about modern raiding is how few screaming, hollering, completely off-the-wall moments were experienced with guildies. Beating an encounter used to result in the guild's going nuts on Vent because the encounter itself was the challenge. You got Kael'thas down? Complete pandemonium. The Eredar Twins? You'd have the ringing in your ears for days after all the screaming.
These days, it's just the beginning of a slog to the encounter's real rewards. Normal encounters aren't generally difficult, and it feels weird to celebrate getting them down after a few hours' work. Ditto the achievement; you've still got heroic to go. By the time you get to heroic, you don't much feel like celebrating because you've already beaten versions of the encounter several times over. The joy of the first kill is distinctly muted in comparison to its counterparts in classic WoW and The Burning Crusade, mostly because the first kill is essentially meaningless.
The problem with achievements -- and more particularly, the fact that tiers 10, 11, and 12 have required the heroic versions of raid content in order to get the metas Glory of the Icecrown Raider, Glory of the Cataclysm Raider, and Glory of the Firelands Raider-- is that they have an unfortunate habit of turning raid content into a seemingly endless series of hurdles. Many of the tier 10 and tier 11 achievements were and are sufficiently cumbersome to discourage guilds from attempting to tackle them on anything but normal mode, and so three consistent tiers of difficulty have emerged:
Yikes.
While this problem has always existed in one form or another (e.g., having to return to encounters like Lady Vashj and Kael'thas in order to key raid members who weren't in on the original kill), it's become particularly nightmarish in an era when progression itself is irrelevant. The end result of achievements and heroic versions of raid content is that you're never quite finished with it; there's someone else in the guild who's waiting on the version they need or waiting to upgrade a piece of gear to its heroic brother.
The ultimate effect of achievements
Are achievements ultimately good for raiding? I think the answer to this is a qualified yes. Despite their effect on raids, achievements are generally fun to do, and they make you think about how to beat encounters in new and often interesting ways. However, I'm not sure that the current design of raiding achievements -- and in particular, how they're required in addition to heroic modes in order to win a meta -- are doing players any favors. They extend the life of the content, but they do so in a fashion that makes you increasingly likely to resent it.
A lot of people have argued that the Ulduar model for raid achievements is ultimately the best way to go. Achievements like Firefighter, Alone in the Darkness, and I Choose You, Steelbreaker were themselves the heroic versions of encounters, and returning to this model would circumvent the annoying three-tier difficulty described above. However, it has to be said that this probably requires more work on Blizzard's end, as encounters have to be designed with activated achievement criteria in mind (e.g., Mimiron's button, XT-002 Deconstructor's heart).
I'm not sure it's a good idea to return truly difficult normal raids to the game, but right now, the true reward of an encounter is increasingly divorced from original intent of raiding. Progression was once itself a reward, and now, it's just a demoralizing beginning.
Working on achievements? The Overachiever is here to help! Count on us for advice on Azeroth's holidays and special events, including new achievements, how to get 310% flight speed with achievement mounts, and Cataclysm reputation factions and achievements.
Achievements as a whole are great for World of Warcraft; they ask you to look at the game a bit differently, to create challenges for yourself, and to get involved with zones and stories that you might otherwise ignore. Unfortunately, they can also spur players and guilds to approach raid content in a way that's not necessarily fulfilling for all concerned.
Since Wrath of the Lich King, I've slowly gotten the sense that raiding as a whole is much less rewarding than it used to be, and this is a sentiment that's been echoed by a number of other players. Unfortunately, achievements -- originally intended to add another means of accomplishment to raids -- may well be among the causes.
EDIT: This article resulted in a lot of discussion, and the subject was revisited two weeks later. You'll find it here, at OverAchiever: Reconsidering achievements and raids.

During classic WoW and The Burning Crusade, raiding's difficulty lay in the encounters themselves. In the total absence of achievements and heroic modes, beating an encounter was itself the achievement. There were no drakes given for the completion of raid content, there were no "nerd points" associated with your first kill, and you knew exactly where a tier 5 guild that advertised itself as "3/4 TK and 5/6 SSC" on the recruitment forums lay in the game's internal pecking order. Beating a boss even once was enough to give your raiders an enormous sense of accomplishment, and your guild could rest somewhat, secure in the knowledge that advancing gear and greater experience would make the content increasingly easy to do.
While this meant that getting keyed was a big deal -- and it was the mark of a good (or at least competent) player simply to be among those with the privilege of accessing Mount Hyjal and Black Temple -- this raiding model wasn't necessarily good for the game as a whole. The appellation "guild-killer" grew out of the existence of notoriously difficult encounters like Kael'thas, Lady Vashj, Brutallus, and M'uru, all of whom needed to be killed even to see later raid content, much less beat it. Unfortunately, the phrase was no myth. Countless guilds broke up while trying to hurdle bosses with truly difficult mechanics, probably because the inability to progress inevitably exaggerated any existing fault lines within a guild.
Developers also found themselves programming for what was said to be less than 1% of the playerbase at times. Most people simply did not belong to guilds that were capable of getting past bosses like Kael'thas, and so the vast majority of the game's characters languished in a sort of no-man's-land at the level cap once they had exhausted options from battlegrounds (in classic) and badge gear/heroics (in BC).
The advancing raid model
Consequently, Blizzard altered its approach to raid content in the transition to Wrath of the Lich King. Keying requirements are largely a thing of the past, and the greater portion of difficulty associated with raiding has been stripped and reassigned. In Wrath and Cataclysm, a raid encounter's true challenge is determined by the annoyance value of the accompanying achievement(s) and/or the encounter's degree of difficulty on heroic. Encounters like Lady Deathwhisper and the Conclave of Wind weren't particularly tough on normal mode, but they were reasonably challenging on heroic, and then became a real pain in the ass once you added their respective achievements (Full House and Stay Chill, at least before the latter was nerfed).
Developers experimented with different means of adding achievements to raid content, first trying a model where achievements were themselves the "heroic" versions of encounters in tiers 7 and 8 (Naxxramas, Malygos, Sartharion, and Ulduar), and then settling in tiers 9, 10, 11, and 12 for turning heroic into a mode that must be toggled. The problem with this model is that, while it solves the issues presented by the bottlenecked raids and players in classic WoW and The Burning Crusade, it creates others. Guilds are eventually obliged to confront achievements, because that's where the most tangible rewards of raiding now belong. Raid progression on its own is no longer enough.

One of the sadder things I've noticed about modern raiding is how few screaming, hollering, completely off-the-wall moments were experienced with guildies. Beating an encounter used to result in the guild's going nuts on Vent because the encounter itself was the challenge. You got Kael'thas down? Complete pandemonium. The Eredar Twins? You'd have the ringing in your ears for days after all the screaming.
These days, it's just the beginning of a slog to the encounter's real rewards. Normal encounters aren't generally difficult, and it feels weird to celebrate getting them down after a few hours' work. Ditto the achievement; you've still got heroic to go. By the time you get to heroic, you don't much feel like celebrating because you've already beaten versions of the encounter several times over. The joy of the first kill is distinctly muted in comparison to its counterparts in classic WoW and The Burning Crusade, mostly because the first kill is essentially meaningless.
The problem with achievements -- and more particularly, the fact that tiers 10, 11, and 12 have required the heroic versions of raid content in order to get the metas Glory of the Icecrown Raider, Glory of the Cataclysm Raider, and Glory of the Firelands Raider-- is that they have an unfortunate habit of turning raid content into a seemingly endless series of hurdles. Many of the tier 10 and tier 11 achievements were and are sufficiently cumbersome to discourage guilds from attempting to tackle them on anything but normal mode, and so three consistent tiers of difficulty have emerged:
- The normal encounter Most guilds should be able to do these with a bit of elbow grease, but there's no real reward associated with this content anymore. Even gear drops, with so many options outside of raids now, aren't quite as encouraging because gear's just a means to an end.
- The encounter's achievement These range from very easy to very difficult, but most guilds will elect to do them on the normal version of an encounter if possible.
- The heroic encounter The most difficult version of the encounter and the one most similar to the original difficulty of classic and BC raids.
Yikes.
While this problem has always existed in one form or another (e.g., having to return to encounters like Lady Vashj and Kael'thas in order to key raid members who weren't in on the original kill), it's become particularly nightmarish in an era when progression itself is irrelevant. The end result of achievements and heroic versions of raid content is that you're never quite finished with it; there's someone else in the guild who's waiting on the version they need or waiting to upgrade a piece of gear to its heroic brother.

Are achievements ultimately good for raiding? I think the answer to this is a qualified yes. Despite their effect on raids, achievements are generally fun to do, and they make you think about how to beat encounters in new and often interesting ways. However, I'm not sure that the current design of raiding achievements -- and in particular, how they're required in addition to heroic modes in order to win a meta -- are doing players any favors. They extend the life of the content, but they do so in a fashion that makes you increasingly likely to resent it.
A lot of people have argued that the Ulduar model for raid achievements is ultimately the best way to go. Achievements like Firefighter, Alone in the Darkness, and I Choose You, Steelbreaker were themselves the heroic versions of encounters, and returning to this model would circumvent the annoying three-tier difficulty described above. However, it has to be said that this probably requires more work on Blizzard's end, as encounters have to be designed with activated achievement criteria in mind (e.g., Mimiron's button, XT-002 Deconstructor's heart).
I'm not sure it's a good idea to return truly difficult normal raids to the game, but right now, the true reward of an encounter is increasingly divorced from original intent of raiding. Progression was once itself a reward, and now, it's just a demoralizing beginning.
Working on achievements? The Overachiever is here to help! Count on us for advice on Azeroth's holidays and special events, including new achievements, how to get 310% flight speed with achievement mounts, and Cataclysm reputation factions and achievements.
Filed under: Achievements, The Overachiever







Reader Comments (Page 1 of 5)
mazca13 Aug 25th 2011 2:14PM
I can definitely see the logic here - but it takes all sorts. Progression through normal raids *is* a satisfying achievement when you're raiding inconsistently in a casual guild. My guild got to 7/12 tier 11 before the nerfs, and each boss kill was an achievement when you're dealing with a mixture of player abilities, no attendance requirements, and generally only raiding once a week. We never really aspire to do hardmodes or get the raid drakes, and the difficulty of normal raids is pitched about right.
Jawn Aug 25th 2011 2:29PM
"Progression through normal raids *is* a satisfying achievement when you're raiding inconsistently in a casual guild. "
And that's what was going through my head as i was reading this, too.
Maybe they should have normal modes be able to start right-off-the-bat with a "handicap mode" that nerfs - not the raid - the players, by reducing their stats a given amount, like 10% (i'm just taking any number here) and maybe give them a little something extra for it. Maybe that would bring back that 'epic' feeling for the 1st go at a raid, for those that are big-time raiders.
Allison Robert Aug 25th 2011 2:38PM
That's an excellent point, and not one I really intended to overlook in the column. I've been on both sides of the equation as both a hardcore raider, and then again as someone whose first experience with content was long past its "progression" status (at the moment, I'm the latter, consequence of RL issues).
I guess the problem for me, even as someone who often approaches content much later, is that something still feels a bit cynical about the way in which current raid and achievement design lengthens the experience of a raid. It extends the life of raid content in a fashion that's more annoying than it needs to be. Raiding achievements are a lot of fun, but I think the Ulduar model served the game better than the heroic/achievement/normal split we've got right now.
Nobody laughed at the difficulty of things like Knock, Knock, Knock On Wood, but at the same time, you didn't have the organizational nightmare of the normal/heroic split with a full complement of raiders who had to come in and out for whichever version of an encounter they were missing.
bilbomoody Aug 25th 2011 2:57PM
You're entitled to your opinion that it "extends the life of raid content in a fashion that's more annoying than it needs to be."
For me and my guild though, it's a great way to keep entertained and experience the game to its fullest. Even now, we're going back to ICC Heroic to get the achieves and drakes for people who thought they'd never be able to see that content or get that drake. I'm glad it's lengthened the life of raid content, what's the point of having game content that's grown stale after the top 50% of raiders have defeated it? Strange attitude to have to say, "Oh, we killed everyone there and got the gear we needed for the next tier, move along - nothing to see here." I'd rather opt to go back for the extra challenges it offers for those of us not in the most l33t of raiding guilds. If anything, trying for achievements and heroic modes help people learn better what their characters are capable of and teach them key tactics for approaching new fights in the future.
Snuffey Aug 25th 2011 3:05PM
Casual raiding is what I enjoy tuning encounters to those that don't have the perfect raid make up or gear or skill level makes for a more fun laid back experience. I do agree that the way they did "hard modes" was best done in Ulduar where in it was some mechanic in the fight that made it a hard mode that just seemed to be the most dynamic and fun system. Toggling just seem well silly. As for gating it still exists, downing the penultimate boss of a particular patch is the new gating system for opening hard modes. BTW Yogg Saron I hated that boss did not find it fun at all...... as a healer at least.
Allison Robert Aug 25th 2011 3:10PM
@bilbomoody
I would actually argue that the ability to return to heroic Icecrown at 85 to do the achievements is a sideways acknowledgment of the point I was trying to make.
At level 80, you'd have to be suicidal to do Full House on heroic Deathwhisper. At level 85, you can smoosh the two together with minimum annoyance. Raid content is a lot more fun when you're not stuck with the choice of doing the achievement *or* the heroic version, particularly when doing the achievement denies you the opportunity to do later bosses on heroic.
In essence, you're skipping past the problem with the approach to normal/heroic/achievement raid by doing the content when the heroic/achievement split has ceased to be an issue. My argument is that it shouldn't be an issue with current content either.
bilbomoody Aug 25th 2011 3:22PM
So it's really that big of an 'annoyance' to see the same content for a few weeks while working on achievements and then heroics.
Besides, if it's really that big of an 'annoyance' (a word I keep seeing pop up here), then don't worry about the achievements. Kill the bosses on normal, then kill them on Heroic. Or wait, is killing the boss twice too much of an annoyance? If so, why play. I don't mind working on an encounter several times. There are opportunities for personal challenges each time you go in, and each time you go in, the fight changes if only very slightly. I guess it helps that I'm in a guild that allows different people with different classes and levels of abilities into the fight - that allows for further diversity in how the fights are tackled. For the hardcore guilds that have a set number of raiders that never changes, and focus on only one way to down a boss, then I suppose around 10 boss kills it would start being monotonous. But I still think it's good to allow other people to down content they wouldn't be able to normally because Blizzard nerfed the original encounter and added challenged for the l33ts.
bilbomoody Aug 25th 2011 3:28PM
Oh, and at level 80, we weren't able to kill all the bosses in ICC. That didn't happen until after Cataclysm.
You're missing the point that there is a whole group of people (and I would wager a decent portion of the player base) who either doesn't have the skills or the time to invest towards gear, etc that really benefit from Blizzard nerfing regular encounters. To counter that, they created hard modes. Whether it's not using keepers in the Yogg encounter or 'toggling the switch' in BWD, it's a more difficult version of the encounter. You can argue the mechanics of how the difficulty is created - but to argue that they messed up by nerfing the original normal encounter is creating an elitist attitude (regardless of intention) that says to people like my guild - you're not good enough to see this entire tier of content, tough luck.
jtrack3d Aug 25th 2011 3:40PM
I think you hit it.
Essentially, I see it like this... (made up statistics)... because I don't have a source for actuals.
Imagine something like...
20% of the players ever get to see normal raid starts before nerf.. early bosses
5% see them before nerfing
12% see them to conclusion after nerfing.
4% see them on heroic
1-2% see them finished on heroic
While the numbers are imaginary... the idea here is that what constitutes a win varies from player to player... and while the smallest group may feel underwhelmed by a normal kill, a larger group will celebrate it... even after nerfing.
In my guild, a normal kill is a win. I'll take it... I'll celebrate it.
The question is, how to make it such that both sides celebrate equally without feeling underwhelmed. How about making anyone that completes an equal level heroic raid not be able to enter a normal... LOL... then everyone gets only first kills at their level.
Allison Robert Aug 25th 2011 3:42PM
@bilbomoody
Raiders would be seeing the content anyway. The content itself is not the annoyance. If it were, they wouldn't be raiding.
The crux of the issue is that how achievements and the heroic versions of encounters are designed change the way you experience the content, and it's my argument that having to choose between the two (you really can't do both on most encounters while they're current) changes that experience in a way that isn't good for the game.
As I said, your ability to skip past the issue entirely at level 85 in heroic Icecrown is pretty much the point I'm trying to make. People returning to heroic Icecrown now aren't forced into that choice in the way that raiders at level 80 were, and you don't have to worry about rotating people in and out for achievements or heroics because you can do them both at the same time.
During Wrath, I literally kept a spreadsheet of guildies who needed, say, Full House versus the heroic version of Deathwhisper. We couldn't do them both in the same week, but at the same time, we wanted to get everybody their drakes. For anybody who needed to upgrade their gear from heroic Deathwhisper, though, this was enormously frustrating for every week that we had to delay, and on every encounter we had to downgrade to normal for that reason. The issue just restarted every time a new recruit was brought into the guild, because most of the time you don't get people who already had these achievements. Every achievement we had to do came at the opportunity cost of heroic gear that we needed for the heroic Lich King encounter.
So it's my conclusion that the Ulduar model was ultimately the best way to go. It didn't force guilds to choose between the achievement and the heroic version, because the achievement WAS the heroic version.
Chance Aug 25th 2011 5:33PM
@bilbomoody
I think you're really missing the point of this article. She isn't being elitest in the slightest, she actually supports the ease of normal modes. What she is saying is that the impossability of doing the hardmodes AND acheivs together is something many people find irritating.
Currently in order to unlock hardmodes you have to go through the entire raid on normal, something that started with t10 that I personally do not understand. This in itself puts a delay on the real content that some of the more hardcore raiders want to get to. Add on the acheivs on top of that and you have 2 aspects of a raid that people have to do aside from killing hardmode bosses.
I'm a casual raider, I didn't get my uluar drake until after cata was released, I still don't have my icc drake (though that is from lack of effort as the missing parts of my meta are relatively easy, even at level) so I can definitely see your point of view. Nowhere did she say anything negative about the nerfs to the raids, if anything her argument would support nerfs since it would make it easier to get the needed achievments for the meta.
If you look at ULD a raider would only have to go through the instance once in order to get the Meta completed. Granted, at level, even with t10 gear this is something that most people would struggle to accomplish, but it was still able to be done. With the current model of raiding you need to go through it AT LEAST twice and that's if you're willing to purposely wipe on each boss a few times to get your group familiar enough with the fight to try doing the acheivment.
My personal opinion is that they should either take the acheiv OR the hardmode version out of the meta or switch back to the ulduaar model where the acheiv was the hardmode. For a casual raider like myself asking me to do both is way too much and I am not going to see the Meta mounts from this expansion until the level cap is raised again, which is fine in my eyes but I do see where the hardcore raiders would find getting them at level grindy, long, and boring.
Kudos to the writer of the article, you made some very good points and I do hope Blizz sees this and considers something different for the next xpac in terms of raiding achievs. Possibly making the achievments an aspect of the hardmode fights, but not necessarily require hardmodes to do?
I.e. killing 12 adds in 10 seconds during Maloriak achiev could have worked with a model like this by simply having the heroic version require you to release 4 sets of adds per phase. I'm sure there are other achievments that could be worked like that in most fights, but I'm not familiar with what most of the ahievments are so I can't say for sure. It certainly would solve the problem for both aspects though, all id ask is that they do away with the HM requirement for the Meta so that both the casual and hardcore raider could at least have a chance of finishing the Metas at level.
Maccaroon Aug 25th 2011 9:51PM
Blizzard have already addressed the Ulduar method of hardmodes. They stated that while Ulduar was the fun way of addressing hard modes, it also required a lot of raid design. Thinking up a new way of introducing a hardmode for every boss in a raid instance would slow down development of new raids and thus patch releases. They admitted the toggle method of hardmodes was not as satisfactory but did allow for quicker release of raiding content.
Sahara Aug 26th 2011 6:19PM
One problem with the Ulduar version of Hardmode = achievement, was that sometimes a raid group would unintentionally trigger the hardmode while intending to do the regular mode, at least in the earlier fights. (I'm specifically thinking of XT here) So all of a sudden, the strat has to change on the fly for a group who wasn't prepared to try the hardmode. That's probably much less of a problem for a hardcore raiding guild than it is for a more casual raiding guild, but I personally do like the ability to know beforehand whether or not the encounter will be hardmode.
(On the flip side, not all of the achievement/hardmode triggers are easy to unintentionally start, so I don't think that would have been an issue for the bulk of fights. But maybe I'm just repressing memories here)
HunterFromTheStart Aug 27th 2011 1:02AM
Allison Robert, you have my full apologies, I was totally ready to resent your post. But I believe you are completely right in what you said. It should NOT be a super grind. Just getting the equipment you want is bad enough. I have often felt that I wished there was some way to make a real reward/challenge system for those who want REAL raiding..... I resent that it was between only 1 and 6 percent of players who got to see the end of Burning Crusade. I LIKE that more people got to see the end of Wrath. I especially felt pretty good about the fact that you could see the video of the fall of the Lich King from Dalaran.
As a side note, due to a work schedule from hell, I don't get to raid with most guilds. So any raiding I ever got to saw, was minimal. Again, my apologies, and thank you for a great article.
Dave N. Aug 25th 2011 2:15PM
I will always see ulduar as what they once did right and what they are continuing to do wrong. I just wish blizzard would notice it.
Heather Aug 25th 2011 2:34PM
Basically this.
Every time I go back to BC raids with friends to farm up gear for the Transmorg, or just to get those pieces people wanted but never got back in BC, people say things like, "Why can't Blizzard make raids like they did in BC?" It's a common theme. I started in BC myself, and I've never had as much fun as I had in BC when I started raiding. Wrath was a disappointment, and Cata is just wearing me down. Ulduar was the one bright spot in Wrath, and I wish they'd go back to that model (and, for that matter, to making weapons and armor that actually looked...nifty).
So...tired...of fire...
Allison Robert Aug 25th 2011 2:43PM
I don't think it's really so much that they're doing raid content wrong -- I would argue that encounters tend to be more imaginative and fun overall these days -- but I do think the normal/heroic/achievement split isn't serving raid content in the fashion that it's meant to.
Just a theory, but maybe *having* to incorporate achievements into an encounter in the form of Freya's trees, the titans (or lack of them) on Yogg, Sartharion's drakes, etc. forces Blizzard to program encounters with a level of complexity that players enjoy more than the normal/heroic toggle? It also removes the organizational annoyance of, "Oh crap, X needs the achievement, sorry folks" that eighty-sixes a heroic encounter for the week.
Food for thought, anyway.
Matt Aug 25th 2011 4:11PM
Yes, I couldn't have said it better myself. Ulduar was, in my oppinion, the most successful raid tier Blizzard has implemented yet (both mechanically AND thematically).
Additionally, it's usually not bigger numbers that make a particular fight feel extra challenging; it's tougher execution requirements that really give a fight teeth. Achievements, more than anything, force raiders to approach executing the fight in a more difficult way (hard modes do too, but sometimes the major difference is higher health pools).
I also think the Ulduar way of doing hard modes made the two version feel less divided. Sure you were essentially doing different fights - but it didn't feel that way. It felt like the same instance, with the same bosses, and without any magical steroid pills given to each boss before hand. It was more organic.
All in all, I'd love to see a return to the Ulduar version of things. Heck, maybe Blizzard could introduce trash achievements as well - potentially spicing up trash pulls, while making everything feel more integrated as a whole.
Othgan Aug 25th 2011 4:31PM
I just hope that if they make the return to the ulduar model, they don't have any achievements you can get if you sneeze in the right direction. Some of the 5-man achievements are like that. I realize a raid is different, but I'm sure a few encounters in uld were that way. (I joined right before the Ulduar patch, never experienced it while it was current. I am not happy about that.)
Sharlatan Aug 26th 2011 5:41AM
Yes, every single thing about Ulduar is brilliant.
Activated hardmodes, as part of the fight is much better than 'select a mode' crap that is ICC and Cata.
The raid bosses were varied, from nukes, to target swaps, to finesse fights, even vehicle fight for a bit of fun.
There was a progression through the raid, assault the gate, defeat the guardian, convert the keepers to help against yogg. With the bonus of algalon if you managed the (very hard at the time, hard modes).
Plus hardmodes made fights more interesting, Iron Council for instance, 3 modes in one fight so it kept it interesting.
Uld was a collection of briliant fights in an interesting and beautiful raid which had real atmosphere, unlike ICC or any cata raid.
Ah well, we will always have the memories.