The OverAchiever: Why Icecrown was less fun than Sunwell
Every Thursday, The Overachiever shows you how to work toward those sweet achievement points. This week, we contemplate the effect wrought by raid achievements.
Achievements as a whole are great for World of Warcraft; they ask you to look at the game a bit differently, to create challenges for yourself, and to get involved with zones and stories that you might otherwise ignore. Unfortunately, they can also spur players and guilds to approach raid content in a way that's not necessarily fulfilling for all concerned.
Since Wrath of the Lich King, I've slowly gotten the sense that raiding as a whole is much less rewarding than it used to be, and this is a sentiment that's been echoed by a number of other players. Unfortunately, achievements -- originally intended to add another means of accomplishment to raids -- may well be among the causes.
EDIT: This article resulted in a lot of discussion, and the subject was revisited two weeks later. You'll find it here, at OverAchiever: Reconsidering achievements and raids.
Raiding before achievements
During classic WoW and The Burning Crusade, raiding's difficulty lay in the encounters themselves. In the total absence of achievements and heroic modes, beating an encounter was itself the achievement. There were no drakes given for the completion of raid content, there were no "nerd points" associated with your first kill, and you knew exactly where a tier 5 guild that advertised itself as "3/4 TK and 5/6 SSC" on the recruitment forums lay in the game's internal pecking order. Beating a boss even once was enough to give your raiders an enormous sense of accomplishment, and your guild could rest somewhat, secure in the knowledge that advancing gear and greater experience would make the content increasingly easy to do.
While this meant that getting keyed was a big deal -- and it was the mark of a good (or at least competent) player simply to be among those with the privilege of accessing Mount Hyjal and Black Temple -- this raiding model wasn't necessarily good for the game as a whole. The appellation "guild-killer" grew out of the existence of notoriously difficult encounters like Kael'thas, Lady Vashj, Brutallus, and M'uru, all of whom needed to be killed even to see later raid content, much less beat it. Unfortunately, the phrase was no myth. Countless guilds broke up while trying to hurdle bosses with truly difficult mechanics, probably because the inability to progress inevitably exaggerated any existing fault lines within a guild.
Developers also found themselves programming for what was said to be less than 1% of the playerbase at times. Most people simply did not belong to guilds that were capable of getting past bosses like Kael'thas, and so the vast majority of the game's characters languished in a sort of no-man's-land at the level cap once they had exhausted options from battlegrounds (in classic) and badge gear/heroics (in BC).
The advancing raid model
Consequently, Blizzard altered its approach to raid content in the transition to Wrath of the Lich King. Keying requirements are largely a thing of the past, and the greater portion of difficulty associated with raiding has been stripped and reassigned. In Wrath and Cataclysm, a raid encounter's true challenge is determined by the annoyance value of the accompanying achievement(s) and/or the encounter's degree of difficulty on heroic. Encounters like Lady Deathwhisper and the Conclave of Wind weren't particularly tough on normal mode, but they were reasonably challenging on heroic, and then became a real pain in the ass once you added their respective achievements (Full House and Stay Chill, at least before the latter was nerfed).
Developers experimented with different means of adding achievements to raid content, first trying a model where achievements were themselves the "heroic" versions of encounters in tiers 7 and 8 (Naxxramas, Malygos, Sartharion, and Ulduar), and then settling in tiers 9, 10, 11, and 12 for turning heroic into a mode that must be toggled. The problem with this model is that, while it solves the issues presented by the bottlenecked raids and players in classic WoW and The Burning Crusade, it creates others. Guilds are eventually obliged to confront achievements, because that's where the most tangible rewards of raiding now belong. Raid progression on its own is no longer enough.
The raid that never ends
One of the sadder things I've noticed about modern raiding is how few screaming, hollering, completely off-the-wall moments were experienced with guildies. Beating an encounter used to result in the guild's going nuts on Vent because the encounter itself was the challenge. You got Kael'thas down? Complete pandemonium. The Eredar Twins? You'd have the ringing in your ears for days after all the screaming.
These days, it's just the beginning of a slog to the encounter's real rewards. Normal encounters aren't generally difficult, and it feels weird to celebrate getting them down after a few hours' work. Ditto the achievement; you've still got heroic to go. By the time you get to heroic, you don't much feel like celebrating because you've already beaten versions of the encounter several times over. The joy of the first kill is distinctly muted in comparison to its counterparts in classic WoW and The Burning Crusade, mostly because the first kill is essentially meaningless.
The problem with achievements -- and more particularly, the fact that tiers 10, 11, and 12 have required the heroic versions of raid content in order to get the metas Glory of the Icecrown Raider, Glory of the Cataclysm Raider, and Glory of the Firelands Raider-- is that they have an unfortunate habit of turning raid content into a seemingly endless series of hurdles. Many of the tier 10 and tier 11 achievements were and are sufficiently cumbersome to discourage guilds from attempting to tackle them on anything but normal mode, and so three consistent tiers of difficulty have emerged:
Yikes.
While this problem has always existed in one form or another (e.g., having to return to encounters like Lady Vashj and Kael'thas in order to key raid members who weren't in on the original kill), it's become particularly nightmarish in an era when progression itself is irrelevant. The end result of achievements and heroic versions of raid content is that you're never quite finished with it; there's someone else in the guild who's waiting on the version they need or waiting to upgrade a piece of gear to its heroic brother.
The ultimate effect of achievements
Are achievements ultimately good for raiding? I think the answer to this is a qualified yes. Despite their effect on raids, achievements are generally fun to do, and they make you think about how to beat encounters in new and often interesting ways. However, I'm not sure that the current design of raiding achievements -- and in particular, how they're required in addition to heroic modes in order to win a meta -- are doing players any favors. They extend the life of the content, but they do so in a fashion that makes you increasingly likely to resent it.
A lot of people have argued that the Ulduar model for raid achievements is ultimately the best way to go. Achievements like Firefighter, Alone in the Darkness, and I Choose You, Steelbreaker were themselves the heroic versions of encounters, and returning to this model would circumvent the annoying three-tier difficulty described above. However, it has to be said that this probably requires more work on Blizzard's end, as encounters have to be designed with activated achievement criteria in mind (e.g., Mimiron's button, XT-002 Deconstructor's heart).
I'm not sure it's a good idea to return truly difficult normal raids to the game, but right now, the true reward of an encounter is increasingly divorced from original intent of raiding. Progression was once itself a reward, and now, it's just a demoralizing beginning.
Working on achievements? The Overachiever is here to help! Count on us for advice on Azeroth's holidays and special events, including new achievements, how to get 310% flight speed with achievement mounts, and Cataclysm reputation factions and achievements.
Achievements as a whole are great for World of Warcraft; they ask you to look at the game a bit differently, to create challenges for yourself, and to get involved with zones and stories that you might otherwise ignore. Unfortunately, they can also spur players and guilds to approach raid content in a way that's not necessarily fulfilling for all concerned.
Since Wrath of the Lich King, I've slowly gotten the sense that raiding as a whole is much less rewarding than it used to be, and this is a sentiment that's been echoed by a number of other players. Unfortunately, achievements -- originally intended to add another means of accomplishment to raids -- may well be among the causes.
EDIT: This article resulted in a lot of discussion, and the subject was revisited two weeks later. You'll find it here, at OverAchiever: Reconsidering achievements and raids.

During classic WoW and The Burning Crusade, raiding's difficulty lay in the encounters themselves. In the total absence of achievements and heroic modes, beating an encounter was itself the achievement. There were no drakes given for the completion of raid content, there were no "nerd points" associated with your first kill, and you knew exactly where a tier 5 guild that advertised itself as "3/4 TK and 5/6 SSC" on the recruitment forums lay in the game's internal pecking order. Beating a boss even once was enough to give your raiders an enormous sense of accomplishment, and your guild could rest somewhat, secure in the knowledge that advancing gear and greater experience would make the content increasingly easy to do.
While this meant that getting keyed was a big deal -- and it was the mark of a good (or at least competent) player simply to be among those with the privilege of accessing Mount Hyjal and Black Temple -- this raiding model wasn't necessarily good for the game as a whole. The appellation "guild-killer" grew out of the existence of notoriously difficult encounters like Kael'thas, Lady Vashj, Brutallus, and M'uru, all of whom needed to be killed even to see later raid content, much less beat it. Unfortunately, the phrase was no myth. Countless guilds broke up while trying to hurdle bosses with truly difficult mechanics, probably because the inability to progress inevitably exaggerated any existing fault lines within a guild.
Developers also found themselves programming for what was said to be less than 1% of the playerbase at times. Most people simply did not belong to guilds that were capable of getting past bosses like Kael'thas, and so the vast majority of the game's characters languished in a sort of no-man's-land at the level cap once they had exhausted options from battlegrounds (in classic) and badge gear/heroics (in BC).
The advancing raid model
Consequently, Blizzard altered its approach to raid content in the transition to Wrath of the Lich King. Keying requirements are largely a thing of the past, and the greater portion of difficulty associated with raiding has been stripped and reassigned. In Wrath and Cataclysm, a raid encounter's true challenge is determined by the annoyance value of the accompanying achievement(s) and/or the encounter's degree of difficulty on heroic. Encounters like Lady Deathwhisper and the Conclave of Wind weren't particularly tough on normal mode, but they were reasonably challenging on heroic, and then became a real pain in the ass once you added their respective achievements (Full House and Stay Chill, at least before the latter was nerfed).
Developers experimented with different means of adding achievements to raid content, first trying a model where achievements were themselves the "heroic" versions of encounters in tiers 7 and 8 (Naxxramas, Malygos, Sartharion, and Ulduar), and then settling in tiers 9, 10, 11, and 12 for turning heroic into a mode that must be toggled. The problem with this model is that, while it solves the issues presented by the bottlenecked raids and players in classic WoW and The Burning Crusade, it creates others. Guilds are eventually obliged to confront achievements, because that's where the most tangible rewards of raiding now belong. Raid progression on its own is no longer enough.

One of the sadder things I've noticed about modern raiding is how few screaming, hollering, completely off-the-wall moments were experienced with guildies. Beating an encounter used to result in the guild's going nuts on Vent because the encounter itself was the challenge. You got Kael'thas down? Complete pandemonium. The Eredar Twins? You'd have the ringing in your ears for days after all the screaming.
These days, it's just the beginning of a slog to the encounter's real rewards. Normal encounters aren't generally difficult, and it feels weird to celebrate getting them down after a few hours' work. Ditto the achievement; you've still got heroic to go. By the time you get to heroic, you don't much feel like celebrating because you've already beaten versions of the encounter several times over. The joy of the first kill is distinctly muted in comparison to its counterparts in classic WoW and The Burning Crusade, mostly because the first kill is essentially meaningless.
The problem with achievements -- and more particularly, the fact that tiers 10, 11, and 12 have required the heroic versions of raid content in order to get the metas Glory of the Icecrown Raider, Glory of the Cataclysm Raider, and Glory of the Firelands Raider-- is that they have an unfortunate habit of turning raid content into a seemingly endless series of hurdles. Many of the tier 10 and tier 11 achievements were and are sufficiently cumbersome to discourage guilds from attempting to tackle them on anything but normal mode, and so three consistent tiers of difficulty have emerged:
- The normal encounter Most guilds should be able to do these with a bit of elbow grease, but there's no real reward associated with this content anymore. Even gear drops, with so many options outside of raids now, aren't quite as encouraging because gear's just a means to an end.
- The encounter's achievement These range from very easy to very difficult, but most guilds will elect to do them on the normal version of an encounter if possible.
- The heroic encounter The most difficult version of the encounter and the one most similar to the original difficulty of classic and BC raids.
Yikes.
While this problem has always existed in one form or another (e.g., having to return to encounters like Lady Vashj and Kael'thas in order to key raid members who weren't in on the original kill), it's become particularly nightmarish in an era when progression itself is irrelevant. The end result of achievements and heroic versions of raid content is that you're never quite finished with it; there's someone else in the guild who's waiting on the version they need or waiting to upgrade a piece of gear to its heroic brother.

Are achievements ultimately good for raiding? I think the answer to this is a qualified yes. Despite their effect on raids, achievements are generally fun to do, and they make you think about how to beat encounters in new and often interesting ways. However, I'm not sure that the current design of raiding achievements -- and in particular, how they're required in addition to heroic modes in order to win a meta -- are doing players any favors. They extend the life of the content, but they do so in a fashion that makes you increasingly likely to resent it.
A lot of people have argued that the Ulduar model for raid achievements is ultimately the best way to go. Achievements like Firefighter, Alone in the Darkness, and I Choose You, Steelbreaker were themselves the heroic versions of encounters, and returning to this model would circumvent the annoying three-tier difficulty described above. However, it has to be said that this probably requires more work on Blizzard's end, as encounters have to be designed with activated achievement criteria in mind (e.g., Mimiron's button, XT-002 Deconstructor's heart).
I'm not sure it's a good idea to return truly difficult normal raids to the game, but right now, the true reward of an encounter is increasingly divorced from original intent of raiding. Progression was once itself a reward, and now, it's just a demoralizing beginning.
Working on achievements? The Overachiever is here to help! Count on us for advice on Azeroth's holidays and special events, including new achievements, how to get 310% flight speed with achievement mounts, and Cataclysm reputation factions and achievements.
Filed under: Achievements, The Overachiever
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Reader Comments (Page 4 of 5)
Yobbam Aug 25th 2011 3:40PM
I think I would be very happy if I could play the game like the old days right from the beginning of a toons life. At the character generation screen, a simple toggle switch. Do you want casual/normal mode encounters, or hard mode/ heroic encounters. And if you don't like it, re-roll, and choose again. Choose your destiny and style of play right from the beginning. It's an simple solution to an elegant problem. But offers the choice to play the way you like like right from the start. Your choice means something to you, and your successes and failures are on your terms. Glory of the raider or I'm just here for the T-shirt. Either way, you win.
Tk Aug 25th 2011 4:08PM
Everyone remembers the really great Ulduar achievements, with unique logical mechanisms. XT was inspired - if you can't kill the heart, you're not good enough to do heroic. You must be this tall to ride. Firefighter and Freya 3 were fantastic execution fights that felt like they were designed on heroic, and then had parts removed to make the regular version. No one remembers countless number of stupid "no one gets hit on vezax enjoy your lag" achievements, or "iron dwarf medium kill all your new recruits who are asking to do this fight again while all your healers afk in fire to get out of standing here for 15 minutes STOP AOEING GUYS." Every tier had achievements that were fun, and ones that sucked. I had a blast doing KT's achieves, Sindragosa's made me want to kill my raid team. There were just a LOT MORE in Ulduar, so of course some were better and some were worse. There's a big difference between the "hard mode" 7 and the rest of the 20? 30? Ulduar achievements.
I'm going to agree that the BC glory days memories have a lot more to do with raider burn out than actual design mechanisms being substantially better. If you were a raider in BC, and are still a hardmode raider now, that's 4 or 5 YEARS of pushing. 1% of raiders did sunwell, and what percent of those raiders are STILL hardmode raiders? It's gotta be something like one in a thousand players or less. 4 or 5 years of game disallusionment, real life responsibilities, and age. Hell, even BEER is less exciting than it was 5 years ago, guys.
And a lot of the "BC was Better" gang are people who, if they're totally honest, never raided in BC or only did Kara, but went back in at 80, or 85, roflstomped the content, and said "Illidan looks awesome." Arthas and Nef look awesome , too. Really. You just stop seeing it after a few weeks spent on their floor.
And I was a hardmode raider who was damn proud of every first kill in WotLK, from deafening nerd screams at an incredibly late Maly10 regular mode kill to deafening nerd screams at a regular LK kill, even knowing it meant we were starting a months log slog of hardmodes. Hell, it was MORE exciting because we knew we were looking down the barrel of more content, more fun, more time spent with friends, and more accomplishments, not just getting to rest on our laurels til the next patch.
Heather Aug 25th 2011 8:47PM
While I agree that some of the Achievements in Ulduar were pretty aweful (yes...yes I do remember Iron Dwarf ughh!!!), I think it got worse in ICC, for me, at least. And yes, the Sindy achievement made me want to quit raiding - you could not PAY me to go back and do that instance anymore. I raided it for almost a year, that's way too long. So many hard modes, so much aggravation and stress with incredibly -annoying- achievements, blech.
But at the same time, I don't know that I agree with you about the people who say BC raids were better being people who didn't raid in BC. I raided in BC. I did every bit of content from Kara to Hyjal/BT. The only thing I didn't see at level was Sunwell. And I still say those raids are better. BT is still probably my favorite instance in the entire game, if only for the thrill-inducing music and just BEING there. The fights were interesting, the trash was tough - but I do not remember the trash being as annoying when I was raiding back then. They haven't managed to make weapons or armor that looked as good since BC - with the possible exception of, you guessed it, Ulduar.
To me, I MUCH prefer for the achievement to be the heroic mode. It would make things so much less stressful when you're trying to get a stupid meta and farm the heroic bosses for gear that you need in order to take out that next heroic boss.
zpg006 Aug 25th 2011 3:58PM
"You have to beat the normal version, then you have to beat the achievement, then you have to beat the heroic version"
That seems out of order. If you're a hardmode progression raider wouldn't you do the achievements after you do the hardmode progression kills so you can, you know, have a more relaxed schedule?
Allison Robert Aug 25th 2011 4:17PM
If you're in a realistic position to compete for a world first, or at least, say a top ten kill, then those guilds will head straight for the heroic version as fast as they can. If you're everyone else in the "hardcore" set (to the extent that it can be described this way), it's often worth your time to stop for the achievements while your raid accrues the gear it wants/needs for heroic attempts.
And then, of course, you have to go back to normal to get the achievements for anyone who didn't get them the first time around, or for people new to the guild ... hence the problem.
Vrykerion Aug 25th 2011 4:43PM
Allison, couldn't the same be said for BC? Not with achievements mind you, but when a new raider joins the team we would frequently have to revert ourselves to farmed content like Karazhan in order to gear that person up so we could do the higher up stuff (This is one of the reasons my guild never really got anywhere in T5).
I don't think this is a symptom of the achievements, but of simply tiered raiding in general. Now we have the whole JP/VP conversion to handle the gear, so instead it's achievements. Same problem, different pieces.
WeWhoEat Aug 25th 2011 4:01PM
While I too remember BC raiding fondly and still think Karazhan was one of the best designed instanced in the game. There's a whole lot more I remember about BC raiding that I think a lot of people overlook. I remember having to fight to constantly fill a 25 man roster so we could actually raid that night, and I remember having to deal with the 5 or so bad raiders that would constantly wipe the raid or not let us meet enrage timers (but without their bodies we wouldn't be able to even raid; see the previous point), I remember the crazy methods we'd have to use to make progression like asking/forcing people to take leatherworking (drums) and stacking shaman and warlocks and all the tensions that would create (see the previous point). I would hazard to guess that these were budens constantly experienced by most raiding guilds in the game if they wanted to see the next boss killed and for even more guilds it signified an end to the game's content because they couldn't shoulder that burden.
We remember the fond and sweep the hassle under the carpet, and if you truly feel like you enjoyed that game more back then it probably has more to do with the group you played with vs. the group you play with now which has a much higher impact on how fun the game is then the actual content in most cases. But if you're able to honestly assess the game, including all the bad with the good, I think you'll find that Cat > Wrath > TBC >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Vanilla.
In Vanilla you couldn't play the raiding game unless you were in an elite raiding guild (unless you enjoyed running MC forever)
In TBC you couldn't play unless you played select blessed classes (tanks with shield block and fear countering, healers with bloodlust, and warlocks and rogues that made other DPS cry)
In Wrath you felt the constant pressure to field a 25 man roster and all the drama and grief that comes with that or else you felt like you weren't playing the real game (10 man raiding not real raiding).
There's still issues now, but look at all the hassle that blizzard's taken off the shoulders of the majority of their customers, and that's why firelands is more fun than icecrown and sunwell combined.
Kal Aug 25th 2011 4:10PM
I will also say for first fight kills: it was a lot more enjoyable to kill Algalon than it was Yogg-0. It was a lot more fun to kill Sinestra (for the folks I talked to at least) than it was Nefarian.
That's not always the case; killing HLK and getting world 270 with a 2-day a week guild was pretty special and awesome. But after doing so many versions of the content day after day, it dilutes those kills.
I think this is more true for the fights that are not hugely different between normal and heroic. Firefighter was so significantly changed compared to normal Mimiron that it felt like a totally different encounter. Thorim, however, really didn't. Yogg-0 wasn't different enough until the final phase, but Vezax was very different. HLK was pretty different in every phase as far as what you had to do and how you had to organize, so it felt like a different fight. Most of the heroic modes in Cataclysm don't quite have that feel to me.
I would definitely hope that they really change normal vs. heroic more. By all accounts Ragnaros is brutally hard but it's also a totally different fight than normal mode. Alysrazor changes quite a bit. Shannox, on the other hand, is almost precisely the same. So is beth, rhyo, and Baleroc.
Coldbear Aug 25th 2011 4:11PM
I raided to see cool stuff. Nefarian landing on the balcony the first time. Ragnaros' hammer doing the twirl and falling into the lava the first time.
Seeing Lady Vashj and the Sunwell endboss the first time.
Once I've gotten my eyecandy jollies I couldn't care less. Heroic - schmeroic.
The final end boss should be the big amazing reward fight - i.e. Algalon. That was amazing, even six months behind the world first kill.
moonburn Aug 25th 2011 4:22PM
I think one aspect affecting things is the fact that since content is by nature designed for both 10 and 25 player modes, and normal and heroic modes, that constrains greatly what the designers can do with an encounter.
For example, in BC one of the hardest fights for a lot of guilds was Teron Gorefiend, who randomly killed a player every 30 seconds (leading to a sub-fight where the dead player controlled a ghost that killed constructs). Because that encounter was designed to last 5-6 minutes and the first death occurred about 90 seconds in to the fight, you would likely lose 7-8 players during the encounter (of course with battle rez, soulstone, etc., you could protect healers in case you got an insane streak of bad luck).
That style of mechanic simply can't be done in today's raid, because scaling it down for 10m would either cause the deaths to come too far apart to be considered, or RNG could kill all your healers in no time (without the benefit of more than one battle res).
This is the sort of scaling issue that inhibits encounter designers, who have to take in to account four potential modes for each encounter. It homogenizes encounters, and I think contributes to the fatigue that raiders feel.
Allison Robert Aug 25th 2011 4:26PM
That's a really excellent point and not one that occurred to me, I admit. I still think it's possible for Blizzard to return to the Ulduar model for achievements/heroic versions of encounters (e.g., 10-man Firefighter wasn't significantly less difficult than 25-man Firefighter, at least at first) but they can't realistically design any encounter that won't scale seamlessly between the 10- and 25-man versions.
You're right: an encounter like Gorefiend could never happen in today's raids.
Tom Aug 25th 2011 4:25PM
"Guilds are eventually obliged to confront achievements, because that's where the most tangible rewards of raiding now belong."
I disagree. Achievement Points are the least tangible of raiding rewards - gear, whether normal or heroic, is more tangible.
"Raid progression on its own is no longer enough."
For this to be true, then it would mean that people raided for progression in BC while today they raid for gear. I don't believe that's really the case, but even if it were achievements still wouldn't have anything to do with it.
"The end result of achievements and heroic versions of raid content is that you're never quite finished with it; there's someone else in the guild who's waiting on the version they need or waiting to upgrade a piece of gear to its heroic brother."
You were never quite finished with content before - there would always be a new patch or expansion. There was always more content down the line and that's still the case today. Today, we have more content from each patch thanks to achievements and hard modes, but there's still always the next patch. Hard modes or no, you're never finished until the game ends, so achievements haven't had any effect in that regard.
... and there always was, and always will be, somebody waiting on a drop. Whether it was your guild's 10th Eredar Twins kill or 10th Heroic Putricide kill, people still need gear. THAT certainly hasn't changed.
Kal Aug 25th 2011 4:29PM
"I disagree. Achievement Points are the least tangible of raiding rewards - gear, whether normal or heroic, is more tangible."
Right - and achievements in raids lead to mounts, which are far more tangible than gear as far as showing off what you can do. Invincible still, to this day, gets more comments in PuGs than anything else I have. Similarly titles; Death's Demise shows PuGs who know that I'm srs bsns, and gets a lot of questions as to how I got it. Both of these things are immediately visible to a person. Gear is usually only apparent if you play that class.
And there is a big difference between being finished with something (ie, the content is on farm) and having to do progression on it. Having to progress 3 times per encounter is mentally more challenging than having to farm something 10 times. That's the 'never been done' aspect.
pakkman781 Aug 25th 2011 4:59PM
Ulduar is easily my favorite raid tier ever. ToC with togglable hard modes was a mistake, one that has echoed for 4 tiers now. Pressing Mimiron's big red button to make the fight harder made sense. Clicking heroic mode before even entering the raid and the fight just being more difficult, does not.
I like the big, multi wing raids best, such as Ulduar and ICC. Easier wings early on for more casual raiders, with harder bosses later on. This way a guild does not have to choose one smaller raid to do for the week, do what they can, and have something to push for later.
Ulduar was really the pinnacle of PvE content. Big, epic, lore rich, flavorful and meaningful hard modes made it the best by far. My little casual guild and I were so pleased when we got our rusted drakes near the end of wrath, because Ulduar was still fun and challenging for us.
Kravos Aug 25th 2011 5:28PM
If you're really "not interested" in the hardcore vs casual argument, maybe you shouldn't spend so much time talking about unsatisfying and "less rewarding" the baseline raiding content is. And you REALLY shouldn't align your article with the sentiment that BC = Glory Days and everything since then (except Ulduar!!1) is crap. You wanna talk about a tired argument, boy howdy. I get it, it bothers all of you hardcore BC vets (all 1% of you). I'm not without sympathy; every time I hear somebody lament in Trade or Gchat about how much better things used to be in BC and how terrible everything is now, my day gets ruined too.
If you instead want to talk about how achievements are screwing up your sense of progression, talk about THAT, and not how much better it was to kill bosses back when they were so hard that they were called "guild-killers."
Sure, you used to be able to say you were "done" with an encounter or a raid. Good for you and your unshaken sense of completion. But do you know what else happens when your guild is DONE with the current raiding tier and there's no reason for raiders to log on until the next content patch? Sometimes it KILLS YOUR GUILD.
Lissanna Aug 25th 2011 5:43PM
Most of the raiding guilds (except for the maybe the "server first" types of guilds) didn't have a lot of down-time between new raid content releases in Vanilla & BC because most guilds only killed like 1 or 2 new bosses a month (unless you got stuck in an endless Karazhan loop in BC). In general, you crawled slowly through the content and that's part of what gave people the sense of satisfaction when they conquered an encounter. It just feels different now with so many people clearing through normal modes on the first week & not having the natural pacing in place anymore to slow down the first string of boss kills.
Vinyl Aug 25th 2011 5:59PM
Maybe it feels different than the progression you described, but it's really not. World Firsts come faster thanks to test realms and sponsored raid teams, and those teams are NOT "most raiding teams."
OH NO! Paragon DREAM (sponsored, trademarked) finished Heroic Rag! Guess that means 4.2 is over!
Stop this nonsense.
Heather Aug 25th 2011 9:59PM
The problem is, it's already killing guilds. You get to the point where you feel like you're never going to get anywhere, and there's so much content ahead of you that you can't possibly finish it all. I despise the color red now, and I hate fire. I hate fire so much. I'm so sick of fucking fire.
Liss is right - you didn't expect to get every boss down every month. It took a while to get things on farm, and every boss kill was a real achievement. With normal modes being so easy to get through, it makes Heroics seem really out of whack, and just an endless slogfest you'll never be done with.
Did I mention how much I hate fire?
Goodk4t Aug 25th 2011 5:46PM
I think Wrath (and Cataclysm) has been less fun mainly because of Heroic Modes. Heroic Modes is basically this:
__Okay guys, we have beaten this boss on the easy mode, now let's do it again for real next week, because we couldn't attempt heroic mode before we beat him on regular.
It feels like you wasted your time killing that boss, only so you could try the real deal.
In The Burning Crusade was more like:
__YES!! Oh my God!! We finally killed Illidan! You're dead bitch, DEAD!! YES!!
I understand that they added regular and heroic mode to give content to both hardcore and casual players, but personally, I think they should make the same system as in Ulduar, where you activate the hardmode by doing something special, rather than just click "heroic" on the UI. Plus, players should be able to attempt heroic without doing regular 1st, to bring back that feeling of great satisfaction you had when you killed a a boss for the very first time.
Terethall Aug 25th 2011 5:58PM
YES, ALLISON.
THIS.
THIS, SO MUCH. I didn't raid much in BC, but I grew really sick of raiding in WotLK and in Cata because of the exact issue here: Despite killing certain bosses DOZENS of times, I never felt like I had truly beaten them.