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8-25-2011 @ 2:35PM
Great way to put it, Allison. Ulduar really was the pinnacle here. Even when we went back to do Ulduar's achievements to get the meta there wasn't the sense of annoyance in doing it, though it was considered not a pushover at the time. But doing the metas for ICC? Okay, we have to track who needs heroic what, and then who needs the meta, and how much gear drops off of x and when we can stop doing it because the loot/reward is good enough. It's especially bad in ICC when you have to do the 4 end bosses on heroic to even see HLK. Same somewhat goes for Cho'gall; we're in the position where we can either do CHo'galls achievement or do Sinestra, but not both. It's very frustrating. Raiding is already enough of a time sink.
8-25-2011 @ 2:53PM
Now that you mention, the only truly annoying Ulduar achievement that I can recall offhand was Iron Dwarf, Medium Rare. You can argue Ignis' speed kill was just a gear/competence check and Mimiron's evil red button was really nothing more than a more interesting version of the normal/heroic toggle, but angling for Ulduar achievements really forced your hand on the bosses' basic mechanics. With the benefit of hindsight, it's pretty brilliant how they forced raids to play so well on stuff like Freya and Yogg.The Cho'gall/Sinestra and ICC/Arthas thing is a point I probably should have thought to include. That's a REALLY irritating aspect of the normal/heroic/achievement split, and it's one that'll reoccur each week you're taking a new person through the content, particularly with anything like Deathwhisper's achievement (which admittedly could be done on heroic, but God it was a hassle with healers). The current design is really unfriendly to any guild that's replacing someone on the roster and wants to get this person his/her achievements.
8-25-2011 @ 9:33PM
Really good points -- for ICC, we needed a Google spreadsheet to track who still needed what for the meta, so we could know which bosses to fly through on normal and which we needed for achievements/heroic mode.That said, we still had a lot of Vent excitement in our raid group when we got normal Nef down the week before the nerf after lots of time lost from people dropping out, reforming the group, etc.Regarding the move away from the Ulduar-style (which seems to be pretty widely admired), one thing that Blizzard said to justify the UI toggle was that they didn't want people to have to use external resources (like Wowhead) to figure out how to engage the heroic version of the encounter. With the Dungeon Journal now in the game, maybe we can go back to Ulduar style since they can use that to explain how to do the encounter on heroic.
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