Whatever.. The more expansion they add, the more content they throw under the bus on us. All Blizzard does is turn previous content into dead zones.....

Piratester:

How would you propose they keep that from happening, exactly? Should there be a gated amount of leveling permitted?

Honestly, Transmogrification is the BEST option I've heard of for keeping old content relevant and well-used. Blizzard should be commended for that.

On top of that, they just rebuilt the ENTIRE 1-60 game for people to go back and enjoy, with completely new questlines and stories, making vast changes to the status quo. They implemented XP boosts for BC/Wrath content, to facilitate less time spent in "dead zones" and "irrelevant content."

@MattKrotzer

"How would you propose they keep that from happening, exactly? Should there be a gated amount of leveling permitted?"

My proposal is to keep the local factions of each zone relevant with every passing expansion. They can do this by upgrading the faction, rep vendor items. Make Dailies meaningful for every zone by adding such a feature. Promote the older content instead of letting it die off.. island of quel'danas to comes to mind when I think of wasted cool space that's available. Another thing they could do to mix things up, is to scale all the dungeons for Heroics. More variety is always good!

It sounds like that would create a glut of comparable gear.

Imagine all the 50+ factions in the game offering gear that was usable at 85? You'd never need to raid or go do Heroics, provided you had the right amount of rep with them. You'd just pop around to the rep vendors, equipping yourself. Loot tables can get bloated enough already. This would make it so inaccessibly overblown as to be impossible for the casual player to navigate.

It doesn't sound fun or compelling.

That said, there's no reason why Blizzard couldn't include some high-level quests that encourage you to return to old areas and lend them some aid. (Considering the heroes our characters are supposed to be by 85, it really SHOULD be a duty we perform.) Sure, there's achievements for completing quest zones and reputation grinds, but high-level quests that encourage it could probably go a long way. Even if you make it a weekly thing, like the old Weekly Raid Quests, toss a few Valor Points on it as a reward... it could be an interesting motivator, especially for the non-raiders.

@MattKrotzer

"This would make it so inaccessibly overblown as to be impossible for the casual player to navigate."


Good point.. Causal = less intelligent then non casual player.. They shouldn't get anything unless they raid! Those worthless jerks!

end /sarcasm

...because that's what I said.

They changed the entire stat system, because it was too complicated for the casual players to understand so many intricate systems.

Now imagine that you have 50+ vendors, all offering gear of the same level, with varying statistics, since you don't want all gear to be identical. How does the casual person, who doesn't crunch numbers to figure out maximum benefit, have any idea which of the 15 trinkets, 8 shoulderpieces, 12 helms, 19 boots, 4 calling birds, 3 french hens and 2 turtledoves they should be using?

It's a ridiculous amount of gear bloat, and it would make even TRYING to gear yourself up before reaching max level pointless, since you're going to have so much gear available to you when you DO hit max level.

Plus, then you're fully geared in gear that's supposed to be good, that there's no incentive to do Heroics, or raids, depending on how good you want the gear to be. And all you had to do was wear a tabard or do some questing as you leveled.

@MattKrotzer

"Now imagine that you have 50+ vendors, all offering gear of the same level, with varying statistics, since you don't want all gear to be identical. How does the casual person, who doesn't crunch numbers to figure out maximum benefit, have any idea which of the 15 trinkets, 8 shoulderpieces, 12 helms, 19 boots, 4 calling birds, 3 french hens and 2 turtledoves they should be using?"

I would consider re-subbing both of my WoW accounts if this was an option. The game gets stale, why not add as many options as possible for people to explore, or not to if they didn't want to? Its a choice.. not a requirement.

"Imagine all the 50+ factions in the game offering gear that was usable at 85? You'd never need to raid or go do Heroics, provided you had the right amount of rep with them. You'd just pop around to the rep vendors, equipping yourself. "

What rep vendor gear ever replaced Heroic or Raid gear?

I had an idea similar to that, which I have posted here before. There should be a new currency for doing daily quests You could call it DP for Daily Points. The DP vendor would offer some gear, but the main feature would be to offer something that everyone always needs, for example uncut gems and chaos orbs. All Daily quests from the current expansion would give you DP. It would give everyone a reason to keep doing the Daily quests after they got all the gear from that faction.

This discussion is the very reason why players don’t design the game. The idea of keeping various reps up-to-date sounds like a good one, but it really fails miserably under further (and not even that deep) inspection.

I’ve wrestled with similar thoughts. It always bums me out when I think of all of the people who missed Vanilla raiding and it bums me out that I never raided Black Temple and SWP. Part of me feels there MUST be some way to make old raids compelling and challenging, but outside of constantly scaling them up- I can’t think of anything. (Note: Transmogrification makes people want to go to do them- it doesn’t make them compelling.)

I’ve actually started to think that the way to keep old content fresh is to bite the bullet and face the fact that it never will be- at least to the max level player. So, this really only leaves on direction to go: down. What if, after each expansion came to an end, that expansion’s raids were tuned to be “leveling raids?” MC is something you can do between levels 30-40, BWL 40-50 and AQ 50-60. Kara is 60-64, Tier 5 is 63-67, Tier 6 is 66-70, etc. (All of this through a raid finder, of course.)

This would allow the lore from the zones and the experience of raiding to reach players it hasn’t reached in a way that is meaningful when they are doing it.

The natural extension of this approach relates to gear. Given scalable combat ratings, you’d run into a problem with gear from, say, MC either being way OP at level 30 or under-powered at level 40. As such, I think it would make sense to allow the gear to scale (much like heirlooms do) between a certain level range. This way, the gear is good when you get it and stays good while you need it- but it will eventually get replaced.

@thepiratester

I'm all for more old dungeons getting the heroic treatment, like Shadowfang Keep and Deadmines.

As for updating old rep vendors... no. Rep vendors have gear rewards that are comprable to the the level of the quests/dailies they offer. Why should we get item level 346s or higher for doing level 70-80 quests? Well, we shouldn't. There are some old reputations that players still work on, either for achievements or for mounts and pets. Then again, players are not even working toward reaching exalted with Cata's factions as much these days because many already have the reps maxxed, and it's easier to gear up through other means.

As for getting players to return to lower level zones, Blizz has done that in mount Hyjal. There's a phase for content at 80 and a phase for content at 85. But it's not like the 80s and the 85s can see each other because of that phasing. I do like your idea of making more use out of all of Azeroth and getting players out into the world. Archaeology has helped a bit with that.

I don't consider any zone in WoW "dead" just because there aren't other players around. I can see how wanting world PvP would lead to that opinion, but as someone on a PvE realm, I'm fine with not having competition for mobs and gathering.

All the current Cataclysm rep vendors except Therazane offer gear of 359 ilvl for a few slots that is better the gear available from heroics, and until Firelands came out, the rep vendor gear for those slots was equivalent to or better than the gear available from normal T11 raids and Valor Points.

Anyway, as to the idea... ignoring how unwieldy it is for everyone from designers down to players if 50+ different reps got overhauled every single raid tier... If it's the rep factions being updated, then would you erase everyone's Argent Dawn or Cenarion Circle rep every patch and make them start over at Neutral? Because otherwise, you hit exalted once and have access to their updated-every-tier gear for life?

Also, just wondering... why does there need there to be an incentive of current gear to do any content outside of current tier (or current expansion)? I never understood the sentiment that something's not worth doing unless it gives you gear that can be used in the current raid tier.

The other big thing of course... all of this would be hailed stupid lazy Blizzard releasing yet more "recycled" content. There is still massive whining over Naxx 80 and Onyxia 80, not to mention the Zul'agains and even the Ragnaros fight that is the same as its MC predecessor in name only.

first of all, I said update the rep items.. Patterns, recipes and of course some gear, but not just gear. The idea of having a different currency for rep runs after gaining exalted is a wonderful idea. Just add more variety to the game, keeping everything relevant. I don't see any reasons why or how this would kill Heroics & Raids.

More options in more zones, make the grind feel less... grindy if done right......

@piratester and @mattkrotzer

discounting variety of weapons and different gear weights there need to be 136 pieces of gear for an ilevel to be fully accessorized for PvE
if each nonPvP faction was given 1 piece of relevant (say 331-333 gear) there would still be alot that would need to come from dungeons, and, when the relevant faction for your gear in the next expansion was revealed it would give something to work on in the "we're bored 'cause we don't have a beta code" doldrums.

Gear has been a major sticking point this expansion and (imho) was completely mishandled as some classes could get geared for heroics (or were already geared for heroics) very quickly after hitting 85, and some classes had to craft 359 gear or grind for PvP replacements just to meet the 329 platform, so let's just all take a chill pill

"As for updating old rep vendors... no. Rep vendors have gear rewards that are comprable to the the level of the quests/dailies they offer."

Yes, but one levels so quickly now you usually find yourself several levels higher when you do finally get revered or honored, thereby making that particular rep gear useless to you.

The pirate is right. Blizz loves to turn the previous expansion into ghost towns. Look at Shat and dalaran. You think you are going to be spending a lot of time in twilight highlands or Vash'jr come next expansion? I highly doubt it. Hell, midway through the first year they already took the recipes you had to unlock and put them at the trainers in the main towns.
Now they are going to make you fly through northrend even faster by lowering the XP needed from 70-80. Blizzard reminds me of my favorite band Def Leppard. They were notorious for taking 4-5 years in between records. Each year they would come out and say how they want to put the next one out sooner. They cut it down to 3 years once, then went back to their old ways. Trasnslation: Don't hold your breath. Quite honestly, I don't want them rushing things. I like the way things work now. If they could somehow come up with smaller expacs (cheaper too now) in a quicker time frame and still deliver the same quality, I am all for it. I think at best we could see stuff at 18 months. I very much don't see expacs every year. I think the product would suffer a great deal.

@thepiratester:
One of the things I really want to experiment in GW2 is the automatic character nerfing when he goes to old zones or instances; the game scales down the character's power level to something appropriate for the zone, so the player can actually experiment the content at the correct difficulty level, instead of feeling like he's playing in God Mode.
This, plus most of the scripted content not being traditional quests (which, in WoW, are restricted to being run just once per character), and scaling with the number of players (most should scale from solo to a few dozen simultaneous players), should keep old zones actually viable for having some challenge and fun.

@Noyou

Right on! Add "twilight highlands or Vash'jr" to the who the hell wants to go there now list....

@DarkWalker

Yeah, GW2 & SW:TOR are on my list of must haves cause WoW just cant. ( or wont )

@MattKrotzer

keep the blinders on & pretend that everything is ok.

Again with putting words in my mouth...

Just because I shot holes in your well-meaning but ultimately unworkable idea doesn't mean I don't agree that there's dead zones in the game, or that I'd like to see them made more compelling... but in a game where the main goal is to reach the next level, that sort of game model just doesn't become viable.

I actually DID give a suggestion for your idea, if you note. I mentioned making a weekly quest (like the old Weekly Raid quest) that would have you go back to help an old-school faction with quests or some new chore. You could get rep from it, as well as a handful of Valor or Justice Points, just to keep the high-level characters interested.

Honestly, the problem is one with WoW itself, and that problem is called levels. Currently, whether most players realize it or not, WoW has TWO leveling systems, and you switch from one to the other once you hit "end game". First, you level up from 1 to 85 using that numerical way of leveling your character. Then, once you've hit "end game", you start leveling up using the Gear system. This is one of the reasons that so many people have a notion of working hard (leveling to 85) in order to play the REAL game (leveling from Blues to heroic raid gear).

This is also why old content becomes obsoleted so quickly: Blizzard is essentially continually presenting us with an opportunity to skip or zoom by lower levels each time a new batch of them is added on - be they literal levels or gear levels. When 5 more levels were added in Cataclysm, previous content was made easier to progress through. The same can be said for T11 once T12 came out. This system perpetuatates, and because of our two leveling systems, coupled with constant "speed leveling" updates, means old content simply CAN'T remain relevant unless it's also somehow scaled to account for the increase in levels and gear (which is essentially more leveling up) - which is what they did for ZG, Naxx, etc.

In my humble opinion, the correct move to make is to completely nix one of these forms of leveling, and simply require players to progress through that. If you like the numbers system, then simply have players level up numerically as they complete raid certain raid content: "Did you down Neferion? Gratz, you're level 86 now! On to Firelands!"; If you like the gear leveling system better, then simply get rid of this "level to 85 then start on heroics" game, and cut to the chase: Have people start on Heroics. Then you gear up through the tiers as you normally might, never having to mess with reaching a level cap first.

Actually, this latter option is already what we have. Already, people essentially ignore the numerical level. You never hear of a raider at 84, it simply isn't even considered. Everyone assumes you're an 85 before you really truly begin participating in the more interesting aspects of the game. In this sense, numerical levels are already dead - and yet it's this very system that's causing us to arbitrarily become too "strong" for certain content, and thus, obsoleting it in many ways.