Breakfast Topic: Is a guild leader's age just a number?
by Deb Montague 
Sep 5th 2011 at 8:00AM
The issue of age in WoW has been debated in this column before. Some guilds have age requirements. Some do not. We have discussed whether it matters that the progression raid you find yourself in is led by a 15-year-old or a 25-year-old. For some, it does. Maturity and language are the usual reasons given for age restrictions. For others, if the person does his job, who cares if he is 13 or 33? A 33-year-old can be more immature than a 13-year-old. As this topic has been debated before, that's not what I'm going to explore. What I'm curious about is, does the age of your guild leader matter?
Leading a guild is, I believe, first and foremost, a labor of love. Essentially, you get very few thanks and an awful lot of "waaaaah." It's not unlike being the leader of a small country. No one thanks you for spending four hours putting together a schedule for the month, but they are quick to complain when the right complement of people doesn't log on, so a raid has to be postponed. You find yourself dealing with inappropriate behavior from all levels. You have to call people on the carpet for something they are or are not doing. They pitch a fit and leave in the most drama-provoking manner they can. You look at what you, personally, would like to do and schedule one event to, say, get that last Burning Crusade raid done for the meta -- only no one shows up. There are all sorts of people online, but they are off doing their own thing. Three days later, someone says, "Hey, how come we never run X?" ... which just happens to be the raid you wanted to run. Bang your head on the desk much?
Scott's Officers' Quarters column has been an invaluable resource for me as I lead my guild. I've learned, over the 3+ years I've done this, that some things I feel passionately about don't matter at all. Some things I couldn't care less about have eight people wanting. I'm the guild mom, the confidante, the ego-builder and the cheerleader. I don't remember seeing all those things listed on that charter I bought.
I am the oldest player in my guild. I have kids in my guild who could be considered grandchildren to me. Most hover around the age of what would be my children. It can be hard, sometimes, to see them as peers, particularly when they are doing stuff that is the product of that youth. But I wonder, does it matter when leading a guild, if someone is older? If someone has a vision and is determined to find like-minded people to fulfill the vision of his or her guild, does the fact that they are 22 and a senior in college matter if you are 42 with teenagers still at home? Do you ever wonder if the guild leader has to negotiate with Mom for more time to finish the raid or if the guild leader is the mom, telling the kids to get lost until the raid is over?
I don't think being older grants you a certain wisdom of the ages. I've done some dumb stuff as guild leader. I'm curious what those who join guilds think. Does the age of your guild leader matter to you? Why or why not?
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Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
razion Sep 5th 2011 8:08AM
Age does not always equal maturity.
I've had plenty of my share of guild leaders who were younger than I was when I started the game and they were admittedly some of the better guild leaders I've ever had. That said, it really varies from person to person, and I find that age just has plum nothing to do with it. It's like asking if I'd rather have a guild leader who was left or right handed--it's inconsequential. Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I actually tend to see more mature players coming from the younger end of the age spectrum.
blazenor Sep 5th 2011 10:41AM
I believe there are some older players who want to be young again and so they begin to act as if they are young which lead to older player behaving in an immature way. And the same can be said about younger players who act mature because they want the respect as an adult.
Revnah Sep 5th 2011 8:12AM
That's a very interesting topic for me, especially since I only just joined another guild at the beginning of July. Criteria that mattered to me where: 25man raiding, and preferably a guild that has been around for some time. When I stumbled on the website of the guild I ended up joining, they fulfilled those criteria, but when I read that the guild leaders were my own age (early 40s) and most guild members in their 30s with only some that are younger, that's what actually made me decide to apply.
On the other hand, if they hadn't mentioned age at all and turned out to be 20, I'd probably have applied just the same. As you say, maturity does not always go with age. But I'd be lying if I said age hasn't played any role in my decision!
Nina Katarina Sep 5th 2011 8:15AM
It sounds like you're a combination guild leader and raid organizer; we have those function separated out in our guild. Our guild leader is in her 30s, I think, and our two raid leaders are early 20s, late 30s.
We strive for a level of maturity in our guild, but that's not age-related. We've got one raider in my group who just graduated high school and one who's looking at retirement in the next two years.
I don't think I would fit into a guild with an immature leader, but that doesn't mean that I wouldn't be happy to be in a guild that the guy I just mentioned who just graduated was running. I like to belong to a guild where chat is not 100% sexual innuendos, swearing, or bigotry. I enjoy belonging to a guild where occasional discussion of current events or the implications of the latest scientific discoveries breaks out.
Younger guild leaders can keep that garbage out of the guild and encourage interesting conversation, of course, but it seems that mature guild leaders are more likely to do so.
Darkfreak Sep 5th 2011 8:44AM
"We strive for a level of maturity in our guild, but that's not age-related"
"Younger guild leaders can keep that garbage out of the guild and encourage interesting conversation, of course, but it seems that mature guild leaders are more likely to do so."
Uh...you seem to be contradicting yourself here
Nina Katarina Sep 5th 2011 9:00AM
Yeah, I left out a word there - "We strive for a level of maturity in our guild, but that's not NECESSARILY age-related"
Revnah Sep 5th 2011 9:01AM
It's not a contradiction at all, in fact. One statement is general, acknowledging that people are individuals and so, for example, not all younger people are immature, as little as all older people are mature. The second statement states a tendency, "older people are more likely" to act in a mature manner, not that they're the only ones that do, or that younger guild leaders can't be mature at all.
exogenesis. Sep 5th 2011 8:48AM
Our guild leader has just turned 23, I believe, and his wife is 25. They do a fine job at running the guild, and running the raids. The GM sounds a lot older than he actually is on Vent, for he is calm, and mature, not how many would expect someone in their early 20s to be.
Age doesn't matter to me much at all. While I would prefer to know that I'm a member of a guild with more mature people in it - I hate immaturity; I'm going to be 21 in two weeks, but I was basically born a 40 year old - I've met a few people who have surprised me. For instance, my arena partner is 13 years old, and while he does tend to stick his nose where it's not welcome, he's fun to talk to and does a great job in arena.
All in all, as long as people aren't idiotically childish, I don't care how old they are, even when it comes to leading a guild.
Miz Sep 5th 2011 10:33AM
I've been staring at your Avatar for 5 mins now, I give up. What the hell is that picture O_o
exogenesis. Sep 5th 2011 10:48AM
It's a screenshot of my warlock in WotLK, casting Shadowbolt. I tweaked the colours in Photoshop.
exogenesis. Sep 5th 2011 10:50AM
This screenshot: http://i604.photobucket.com/albums/tt125/kerilin2009/jaedyn.png
Mortenebra Sep 5th 2011 8:49AM
Mental age matters. Chronological age does not.
Up until a character says, "I'm n years old," I try to take things as they come from one action to the next. Because of the potential drama that I've seen unfold via "Officer's Quarters" and "Drama Mamas" as a result of age differences within a guild, we have disclaimers for the 18-and-under members (and their parents, if the members pass it along). Our age limit is a preference, not a law... Mostly because we know that a 30-something could be just as childish and drama-prone as a hungry toddler before naptime. In our guild description, we explain that our members are young professionals, college students, parents, etc mostly so that applicants know about *us* and what to expect from us (as well as an explanation as to why we're mostly active in the evenings), rather than a way of saying, "We're all over n years, so don't join if you aren't over n, too."
There is a prevalent idea that if you've reached a certain age, then you can at least understand the hardships or trials of your fellow guildmates and, therefore, also possess a certain level of maturity-- hence the age requirements in some guilds. But it's absolutely untrue. At most, you might be able to find out there are similar tastes in music and movies, and you can draw from the same pool of pop culture references.
The guild also knows that we can't discern someone's core personality through age. If they'd gone and said, "21 and over," or the sort, I never would have met all of these people, raided with them, forge lasting friendships, and become one of their chief officers. I'd just turned 20 when I started raiding Karazhan with my current team; I was still 19 when my original GM asked me to take on hunter class lead and recruitment for the guild.
I've seen some exceptional, young players go through our guild before. They knew their class mechanics well, at the very least. Unfortunately, they lacked patience and often only saw the guild as a means to an end, rather than a community in which they can enjoy the game. Some might attribute that to age, but I argue that it's a show of an individual's personality more than anything.
Mamaryno Sep 5th 2011 8:59AM
Ego has no age restrictions. Young, old middle age-doesn't matter. I've seen more guilds/raids destryed by egos than wipes, nerfs, or lack of progression.
gewalt Sep 5th 2011 9:00AM
troll column is trolling.
"we're not going to discuss the exact same thing as what we are going to discuss, this is something different. so please tell us the exact same comments as what we just said we werent discussing."
Theres exactly no difference to be found between opinions on the age of the RL vs the GL. in 95% of guilds, the RL is the GL, and even if they weren't, they both shoulder equal levels of responsibility.
ravyncat Sep 5th 2011 9:06AM
My guild leaders are close to my own age--mid 30's. I get along with pretty much everyone in the guild though. It is mostly adults in their thirties to twenties. We have a lot in common--anime!--and were friends before WoW.
I admit I have a little trouble relating to some of the teenagers, but it isn't because they act badly or anything. More because I have completely different problems in life at my age and see highschool stuff as kind of silly--even though I know it isn't at all while you are living it.
I suspect that is a function of every generation gap. I end up feeling like I'm their mother sometimes.
I would not reject a guild out of hand if the leader was young, but I suspect I will always feel more comfortable with people closer to my age. Or at least people who act like adults.
I have little patience for teen boys who act like stereotypical teen boys. Too old to put up with it.
Morfidius Sep 14th 2011 1:07AM
I have been a GM for about 4 years now (time does fly by) and I'm 22 myself. I considered myself a pretty young GM when I started. I have don't many stupid things in my carreer and I've done a few good things. I'm not unhappy about how my guild has turned out over the years... we have a friendly atmosphere between eachother and progress-wise it could be better, but in all honesty I don't really care so much.. we'll get there. That's the mentality I have now though, a year or 2 ago (and before that) all i cared about was progress and raids, now ... not so much. I'm quite happy with just socialising with guildies and friends.
I've always been a rather outspoken person. It's the reason why i left my previous guild just before BC got released. I always caused arguements and raised questions to officers of my previous guild and blamed them for pretty much anything that was sh!t in the guild or off which i didn't agree. After that, i joined my current guild and became an Officer after which i became the GM and have been for a few years now.
Becoming a GM afterwise made me realise stuff isn't always as black & white as most people think. Members of guilds don't see what happens in the background and that makes them raise questions for them, just like I did when I was a member in my previous guild.
We also have a few 16 year olds in our guild whom I find to be alot more mature then some 20+ people. It is true, sometimes they don't always understand the choices that are made by higher ups, but they tend to take it well overall. Then again, I've met alot of 18 year olds that are just twats and childish. It depends from person to person i guess.
I can also now pretty easily figure people out. There's some exceptions alright, but I think i've met most of the "style" of players in my WoW carrier, which helps with getting rid of problems that might occur between people too.
Anyways, being a GM comes naturally to some people but it doesn't make you good at it straight away (note: "good" is subjective). It takes time to get to know your stuff, know how to deal with different kinds of people and know what to do in what situation to guarantee the survival of your guild. Some people learn fast, others don't. Age has nothing to do with it, but it does help sometimes in a sense that people take you more seriously, but if your guildies respect you they will take what you say seriously, whatever your age if what you say is thoughtful, reasonable and understood
Muse Sep 5th 2011 9:31AM
Experience is a very powerful teacher, I think an important thing about good leaders is that they've actually successfully led people through difficult things before, they have an idea of where the stumbling blocks are, and how to get past them. It's like how math teachers who've been in the business for 30 years seem like they can just telepathically read what a specific student's issue is and pick it apart in a pedagogical manner.
Now, there's nothing to say a young person doesn't have experiences. Just that on the balance of probability, an older person is more likely to have had any given experience before, maybe several times and with different outcomes.
loop_not_defined Sep 5th 2011 9:33AM
The last raiding guild I was in featured officers that frequently toyed with the idea of kicking this one kid out of the guild (he was probably 15 or so).
As a fellow officer, the one thing that pissed me off about their behavior is that if they ever bothered to look in the mirror and assess *themselves* they might realize they were far more immature than the "kid" was.
Nick Sep 5th 2011 9:40AM
As a mature student, 27 and in my final year of university, I get my fill of young people chat at Uni. Even friends my own age seem somehow childish.
Its odd that outside of work and home life with my girlfriend WoW provides the most "mature" conversation for me. My guild are mostly in their 30s and 40s which suits me fine.
robsmith77 Sep 5th 2011 9:43AM
A guild leader can only be as good their guild members allow them to be, no matter how young (or old) they might be.
I've played for nearly 4 years and I've only been in two guilds, in the first the GM was slightly younger, in the second (my current quild) he's slightly older. Both have proven to be excellent leaders, but far too often are let down by the rest of us in the guild.
To answer the question: yes, age is just a number.