Drama Mamas: Raid leader woes
by Robin Torres 
Sep 5th 2011 at 6:00PM
WoW is a great place to practice one's social skills. Too bad that Busybody and Negative Nancy haven't figured that out yet.
Hello Drama Mamas,
I am GM of a smaller guild with only one progressive raid group on a server ranked near the bottom of the charts so there isn't a huge player base of good raiders to choose from which makes it so guilds tend to put up with certain personalities if they are good players because there really aren't any others to replace them. Since the release of cataclysm I have encountered problem after problem with our main 10 man group and have had to find several new people which has been no easy feat so I'm just ready for some stability. The issue now is that I have two personalities that are clashing with the overall flow of the group, the busybody and the negative nancy. Both have been with the group for over a year but as time goes on the issues only seem to get worse.
The busybody is a teenager who tends to get into everyones business. He likes to tell other people how to play their class and nitpick everything that they are doing wrong. Sometimes it's helpful, but more often than not it's just unnecessary. He does this about my raid leading as well, which gets quite annoying when I'm trying to organize for boss encounters and he just wants to argue about everything. I've even tried letting him raid lead formally and he wont take command but just wants to complain from the sidelines. I've tried talking to him about how much it annoys us all but he has that kid "whatever" attitude and just blows me off. I don't want to remove him from the core, and he knows that so I think he just likes to push me for the sake of doing it. It really makes me understand why people don't raid with teenagers, and even tho he is a great player the constant remarks just get old and I feel it may be an issue with his immaturity more than anything. My question is how can I rein him in so he isn't driving us all insane? Also how can I get him to respect me more as the raid leader because at this point it feels like he doesn't take me seriously. I don't want to have to go to the extreme of kicking him off but I don't know what else I can do to show him I'm serious.
Now onto negative nancy, this guy is a great dpser who knows his class and always preforms above and beyond on any fight. BUT he is just so negative about everything. On new content that we have to learn he is constantly saying in chat and vent how we wont get this, this way is fail it wont work, and on and on. He even whispers me if he doesn't get the gear he wants or if we are doing a different boss or method and he doesn't like it. Others in the group have expressed to me how they can't stand the way he is just so upset about everything when we raid. He even has little bouts of rage and blows up if things aren't going right. I've talked to him numerous times about his behavior and sometimes he apologizes and says he is just having a bad day but other times he just tells me he isn't being negative and just completely disregards what I am trying to say. At this point I don't know what to do, we like raiding with him on his good days but when he is having hissy fits and sucking all the fun out raids with his negativity none of us want him around. Lately it seems there are more bad days than good which makes it hard to even want to raid. How can I express to him that something needs to change? He is a friend of mine and I'd really like him to stick around but maybe this just got to a point where I've tried talking to him to no avail and it may be time to move along.
Hopefully you can give me some good insight on what I can do with both of these situations. I'd prefer to resolve them rather than just remove and replace because even tho they drive me crazy sometimes, they are good players. I just want to be able to be respected as the raid leader and have a fun time while raiding so we can progress through new content.
Sincerely,
Exhausted
Drama Mama Robin: Exhausted, the reason why Busybody and Negative Nancy don't respect you is that you don't respect your own authority. You want them to change, but you're not enforcing your own decisions and rules. You have to show that there are negative consequences for their actions or else there is no reason for them to take you seriously -- and this particularly applies to teenagers. Otherwise, these two will continue to hold your guild hostage. But kicking them out of the guild is not the only way to punish them. There are much smaller, incremental punishments that could help you keep both of them in line. Here is one method you can try:- Make a probation rank. You can create a rank specifically for people who are unable to follow your rules. (Your rules are explicitly stated on your forums or somewhere else easily accessible, right?) You could just call it Probation or you could have fun with it and call it Purgatory or Naughty or Corner or ... gosh, I could go on forever. Give this rank more restricted bank access than a regular member, though it doesn't have to be no bank access.
- Determine a length of time for each infraction. The length of time could be a week or two raid nights or whatever seems appropriate to you. It should be in relatively short increments so that you can add on as necessary, but long enough so that it is not just a mild inconvenience.
- Take a stand. Tell Busybody and Nancy that they must shape up or get put in the Penalty Box. (See? The options for what to call this rank are endless.)
- Adjust as you go. The access and length of punishment won't necessarily work the first time. Be flexible and try different combinations until you come up with something that seems to be enough of a deterrent.
- Adjust your loot system. 50 DKP minus! (Link is not safe for work. But you all know what it goes to, right?) If you aren't using DKP (and it doesn't sound like you are), you can still restrict loot from rule-breakers. The important thing is to make sure it is clear from the outset what will happen. Don't surprise Nancy with "Yeah, you can't get that drop because you've been complaining the entire time." State the consequences before the run and give warnings in private as necessary.
- Assign homework. This isn't actually a punishment, and you might want to do this concurrently with other methods. Assign forum post topics to each offender to research and write up. For example, if Busybody criticizes a mage, have him put together a mage raid guide to post up on the forums. If Nancy whines about loot, have him write up a gear guide for each boss drop. If every time they push your limits, you push theirs with extra work -- well, they may be deterred from incurring the extra burden. Or they may turn out to be excellent sources of information for your guild. Win-win!
Drama Mama Lisa: Exhausted, the answer to your problem is to recruit -- and recruit now, not later. On a realm like yours, you can't rest on your laurels whenever you feel you've scraped together a tolerably manageable team. Keep seeking players who are interested in playing at or just below the level of your raiding group. These are the folks who'll be enthusiastic and willing to step in whenever circumstances (or personalities) prevent your full team from being online.With such a small pool of players on your realm to pull from, keeping a roster of active, available backups (or having enough players to maintain at least a small rotation) must be an ongoing effort. I recommend putting one or more officers specifically on this assignment.
What I'd really like you to do, Exhausted, is to turn right back around and put your nose in your own letter. Your answer is literally right there in black and white. Tell me what you see:
- I'm just ready for some stability.
- The issues only seem to get worse.
- ... how much it annoys us all ...
- The constant remarks just get old.
- How can I rein him in so he isn't driving us all insane?
- Others in the group have expressed to me how they can't stand the way he is just so upset about everything when we raid.
- When he is having hissy fits and sucking all the fun out raids with his negativity none of us want him around.
- Lately it seems there are more bad days than good which makes it hard to even want to raid.
Give it one more shot with some of Robin's ideas, if you like. Especially when problem players are also friends, it's worth impressing upon them just how serious you really are. Just remember: At a certain point, you have to let go of trying to salvage problem players. Don't be afraid of how hard it might be to recruit replacements; what's important is how ugly these players are making things for the whole group right now.
Dodge the drama and become that player everyone wants in their group with a little help and insight from the Drama Mamas. Remember, your mama wouldn't want to see your name on any drama. Play nice ... and when in doubt, ask the Drama Mamas at robin@wowinsider.com.
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Guilds, Drama Mamas
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Shyster Sep 5th 2011 6:10PM
This sounds distinctly familiar...
Romolus Sep 5th 2011 10:52PM
ikr? It's like the opposite end of another post I've read before.... I think.
Arrohon Sep 5th 2011 6:16PM
I agree, try to get them to follow the rules and not to share so much negativity while looking for replacements. If they value their spots then they'll shape and you'll have some fill-ins. If they don't then you got rid of the problem and will already have their slots filled. I wouldn't suggest kicking them out of the guild though. Just take them off the raid team until they show that they can play nice or leave on their own. Warn them ahead of time that if they try to stir up drama while they're suspended from the team then they WILL be kicked.
Junglebabe Sep 5th 2011 6:24PM
Raid spots are a privilege. Not a right. If addressing the individual's behavior hasn't worked for a lack of respect on their part, their spot should be replaced with someone willing to work as TEAM.
Suss Sep 5th 2011 6:49PM
Having been in a situation similar to Exhausted's, I want to suggest that the only solution on realms that bad is to leave. I found on a former realm that there simply weren't enough players capable of doing Wrath content, and I can only imagine how bad it must be in the Cataclysm era.
Farronox Sep 5th 2011 6:56PM
This sounds a lot like my server. That said If these raiders are anything like the players I've run into they aren't likely to go to the website at all and are more likely to blow it off or just simply gquit.
I'd go with mass recruitment, like they said having that extra possibility to rotate people in and out would make all the difference. But be sure not to just write someone off as a bad raider if they're willing to learn.
Calaana Sep 5th 2011 7:16PM
Age has nothing to do with maturity - forget they're a teenager. You now just have some dope who enjoys pushing limits, so act accordingly. This will involve taking your foot, and putting it down. If they continue, then bring said foot up so it occupies the same position as their buttocks, and proceed to close the door behind them.
As for nancy, downers gonna down. If he has a point, and can give constructive criticism, then that's a valuable, if weepy, asset, but it sounds like it's just criticism. Try ignoring it, telling him to cheer up(but in a way where you still ignore/don't acknowledge the downess), before just telling him not to bring it to raids. If you give him a chance to complain, he will, so whatever you do, do not give him that chance. As for the tantrums, treat him like anyone else - "That's not cool. Don't do it." When he does it next time? "I told you not to throw tantrums. Don't feel like you have to log on next raid night."
Nobody is so important that they get to negatively impact the rest of the group, and this is somewhat of an important point: If it continues, then you are going to end up with more than just two people leaving. It's better to miss some raid nights than to have the rest of the raid team give up and leave.
Keep recruiting, and if raiding is as bad on your realm as you make it out to be, you shouldn't have an issue pugging people at the same level as you. If you mention it's a progress night for boss, you should have some success(and possibly more compared to the people who wouldn't respond because they think it's just another full clear, must have achive deal).
Unless raiding is the main goal of the guild, the group harmony comes first - raiding is an activity done with that group, not a tool used to build it, if you will.
Faralia Sep 6th 2011 12:22AM
"Age has nothing to do with maturity."
Thanks for this comment. I'm a 16 year old officer in a 7/7 25 man raiding guild that also makes straight A's in AP classes, works a part-time job, and leads a highly successful debate team, and I'm one of the most mature people I know, and I have the respect of my guildmates to prove it. It always disheartens me when people are written off simply because of their age. Anyone can be immature - teenagers simply have their age as another excuse if they happen to be.
insanecowcatwarriorgod Sep 5th 2011 7:34PM
Assuming you use a voice chat service, and that they make the majority of these complaints over the voice chat, you could check whether it is a possibility to restrict their talking. I know on ventrilo an admin in one of my guilds was able to mute players, so it could be used as a possible form of punishment.
Bellajtok Sep 5th 2011 7:51PM
I like Robin's suggestions. Rules without teeth are just guidelines. And annoying habits like those of your two guild members which may not be explicitly against the rules are all too easy to get away with. Make sure negativity and nit-picking are listed in the guild rules as a definite no-no. Change the rules if that isn't the case already, but be very careful that the change in no way singles out your two offenders.
That said, you also need to take Lisa's suggestion. On any realm without raiders, there are sure to be people who would like to raid but need a guild to help them get started. If you have a few trainees or (even better) a secondary regular raid for alts and newbies, excellent! Not only do you have potential backups in case of a /gquit or a necessary /gkick, but you also have the additional strength to your position of being able to say "You need to step down to the secondary raid." Just remember, raiders don't come ready-made! Be prepared to coach your recruits, in both playing and being sociable. It might be a lot of effort- but getting more competent players is a pure win-win in this situation.
Khirsah Sep 5th 2011 9:30PM
Remember, also, that you, Exhausted, are risking losing the other 7 members of your raid group, due to the actions of 2. It is much easier to replace 2 members than 7. And you'll keep turning over those 7 because nobody wants to play with a funsucker, much less 2 of them.
I like the idea of a punishment rank. My old guild had one that we called "Beer Bitch". It would be given out for times ranging from 1 day to 2 weeks, depending on the infraction. As Robin mentioned, it included limited bank access, but more importantly, especially given your circumstances, a "Beer Bitch" was not allowed to post in guild chat for the duration of his punishment. It was also common for members in good standing to put the Beer Bitch on ignore, so that we would not be bothered by whispers and other forms of chat, asking for favors and things. As soon as the punishment was over, we'd take the punished member off our ignore list and get back to business as usual.
Maybe, if the penalty for griefing is that nobody will see it, the griefing will stop.
Byeble Sep 5th 2011 10:56PM
Please, please don't expect every teenager you meet in-game to act like this. Some of us are quite happy to listen and learn encounters.
Bond Sep 5th 2011 10:57PM
I agree that this is all about limits and setting some. Finding some new raiders, hard as that can be, will be your ultimate solution. People get very cooperative when they know someone else is waiting right there to sub in. Until then, you have to revisit whatever raid rules you have on conduct and behavior, and enforce them equally on the entire group.
My guild is a group of older people that mostly have family and work responsibilities, and we have difficulty with young people as well. They seem to have a hard time staying focused in our raids, possibly due to a more deliberate pace than they would prefer. But we keep trying, because the young people bring a fire and urgency to working through the content that just is not always there with moms and dads logging on after another day in the trenches. It is tough to keep everyone happy, but it does have its rewards.
feedback Sep 6th 2011 12:31AM
Don't bother with an intricate system of rules. Do you want to run a raid or a preschool? Managing all those penalties would likely be almost as bad as putting up with those two raiders.
Replace the raiders with ones you enjoy raiding with, stop raiding, or transfer realms. Choose. Otherwise you are as much a source of drama as anyone else!
Gimmlette Sep 6th 2011 12:31AM
You might be too Exhausted to put your foot down, but you must do so. Decide what your absolute "line in the sand" is, although I would wager these two have crossed it already, and decide what 'punishment' will happen for crossing that line. Take each of them aside and say, "Look, when you do x, it destroys the cohesion in the raid. I have to ask you to stop it. If you choose to make these comments in a raid situation, then I will have no choice but to kick you from the raid and bench you for x number of days. This is not positive to our progression and I simply cannot tolerate it any longer." Don't add "I'm sorry". Please. Don't. It's not your fault that they push your buttons. Your "fault" is trying to play nice and reason with them when they refuse to be reasoned with.
Now, what to do about the two open spots. Do you have alts that could come? Do you know another guild leader who would have a couple of alts who could fill the slots? You might have to wait out a run until you get a prospective guild member and then run them in that spot as a trial. At the very least, notice who is asking for runs in Trade or General Chat and ask them about their experience and willingness to do a couple runs with you in a pinch. There are people who don't belong to a guild, who "hire" themselves out, as it were, for a chance at loot.
And where are your officers in this drama, Exhausted? Your officers should have your back. There's bound to be drama from these two when you stand up for unity. Your officers should be there to present a united front. Can you delegate the raid leading to one officer for a change, just to have a breather?
It may seem like no one cares or they are quietly seething or just talking to you, when peer pressure might get these two to shape up. I've been down that road. I tried to 'make nice' with people who couldn't work toward the guilds goals. When I finally put my foot down, they left with all the drama they could muster. But, I found out, after they had left, that other guild members resented them and were very happy I decided not to tolerate them anymore. I suspect that's the case here. It's tough to deal with these kinds of people and you'll always second guess your decisions. But I'll bet your guild will be stronger and you'll gain more respect from everyone else, when you say, "I won't tolerate this anymore."
DeadeyeC Sep 6th 2011 9:01AM
If I were in the position of this guild leader, I would wholeheartedly agree with what is suggested here by Lisa and Robin: assert your position! This brat (and let's make no mistake, that's what he is) will continue to think he can do whatever he wants if you let him think it. As for Negative Nancy? Raids wipe, too bad so sad; if he doesn't like it that much he should find a new raid group that "Does it right" by his criteria instead of staying and whining and moaning. Ever been to a party with hecklers involved that weren't removed? it's not fun. Then again, I'm assuming that these problems are an easy fix although they aren't. That being said though, I would at least suggest putting the teenage brat in his place; if he's going to behave like a kid, treat him like one.
Scooter Sep 6th 2011 9:38AM
You only have to put up with as much crap in life as your willing to take.
tibbelkrunk Sep 6th 2011 10:03AM
One of the central concepts that I've picked up on while participating in the leadership of a guild is the ability to separate guild issues into 2 types: big and small. This distinction is the definition of the guild's culture.
First, define each of the issues as big or small. Some examples to consider:
- Who gets this piece of loot?
- Are we going to be able to raid today?
- Why is Player X late? (again?)
- Could Player Y be doing more DPS?
- Does everyone in vent have a mic?
- Do we take another attempt at Ragnaros, or do we go ahead and knock out Baradin Hold with these last 10 minutes of the raid?
Then, you have to prioritize the big issues over the small ones. If progression is a bigger issue than not having an overbearing nitpicker in the raid, then there's your answer. If easing social tension is more important than necessarily having all the raid spots filled, you know what to do.
In simplest form: Don't promote big problems to fix small ones.
Trokko Sep 6th 2011 11:07AM
Personally, I'd kick him.
I'm he GM of a small guild on a low-populated realm as well and I do know that good players can be hard to replace but that doesn't mean he/she can behave like this.
I've had a few people like this one in the guild and they've got the /gkick after a few warnings.
shomechely Sep 6th 2011 11:36AM
Is it wrong to address the bad behavior with the individual? I can't help thinking that if this were my group, before I restructured the guild raiding ranks and revamped my loot system, I would take the person aside and tell them (gently) that the negativity and criticism were affecting the morale of the group and thus progression.
Like "Hey Busybody, I respect that you are an excellent player and our success as a group is proof of that, but some of your comments and criticisms, which I'm sure you mean in a constructive and helpful manner, are not coming across that way in chat or vent. Why don't you save that for private tells, or after the raid or put your suggestions in an email?"
Or: "Whoa! Nancy! You are kinda bringing us down. Unless you have some constructive, supportive thing to say, you should maybe keep your finger off the mic button, mkay. We all know we're dead."
What I read from the letter is that Busybody knows what he is doing and just doesn't care, but Nancy may not realize the effect her comments have on the raid leader and the morale of the entire group.