Officers' Quarters: Raid leading is stressful

Every Monday, Scott Andrews contributes Officers' Quarters, a column about the ins and outs of guild leadership. He is the author of The Guild Leader's Handbook, available now from No Starch Press.
The title of this post goes without saying, but let's say it anyway. It's something that the other nine or 24 players in your raid need to be reminded of from time to time. If anyone reading this has never had the dubious honor of leading a raid before, I strongly urge you to peruse the following email. I'll warn you, though, it's a long one! As for you dedicated raid leaders out there, this column is for you.
Dear Scott,
This is a raid leadership question rather than a guild leadership question -- I hope that's all right! I'm not much of a leader by nature, and I could really use some advice on how to deal with the position in which I've gotten myself.
I'm not a guild leader (thank god), but I run a one-night-a-week raid group for friends who don't have the opportunity to raid more often, and for alts of members of the main raid group.
Progression-wise, we're doing fine; H 3/7, with each new fight being picked up pretty quickly. I have no complaints at all about progression, which I thought would be the main source of stress.
Instead, I've been stressing out over the drama between players -- mostly loot drama, as three members of the raid are on the same token and use similar gear -- and decision-making. I hate drama, and I hate having to make decisions that affect 9 other people and could very well be WRONG decisions (going after Beth'tilac instead of Shannox our first week in FL, for instance), and having to worry about both of these things just makes the raid a source of pressure and something I wish I could avoid.
Obviously, I'm not exactly leadership material. The problem is that there's nobody else in the group that I'd feel comfortable promoting in my stead. . .
There's also the fact that I like all of them, and I think they're all decently fond of me, but that goodwill doesn't necessarily extend towards each other, especially given the drama that's already occurred. I don't want to cause even more drama by resigning. Also -- and perhaps most importantly -- nobody wants the job. (Not that I blame them!)
We've had some great weeks where everything goes smoothly, everyone's in a good humor, there are no gear disputes or imbalances, there are no edged jokes, no sniping, I make the right calls, and it's all gravy. Then there are the weeks where that's not so much the case.
I think I'm going to have to accept that there are always going to be nights that suck, and to find a way of dealing with them that doesn't have me dreading to leave work because I know this raid is waiting for me at home. The question is HOW, and I was hoping you might have some advice on that.
The two main headaches I have now are, as mentioned, loot drama and making the right decisions.
Re: loot, I started with a loose 'need for main spec, greed for off spec and don't be greedy' system. That always worked for our casual raids back in Wrath, and I don't want people passing on minor upgrades just because they're waiting for something better and ending up with a lot of worthless shards (which is what usually happens with loot counter raids, in my experience).
I think the difference is that those Wrath raids were VERY casual; this time around, we have a set raid group actively working on progression. There's the possibility that player A will win something over player B three weeks in a row, and gear is just a bit more important than in those Wrath alt runs. To be fair, I don't think anyone is blatantly selfish; it's just that sometimes people will approach a piece of gear from different perspectives . . .
I've started posting a public loot record so that everyone can see what others have gotten and, hopefully, be more generous to those who've been unlucky, and I try to resolve some of the stickier issues in whispers, but honestly, I don't know if being gently nudged to be a bigger man and give up a piece of gear causes less resentment than an actual loot argument. It's been fine the past two weeks, but I can't help feeling on tenterhooks, waiting for something/someone to blow up again.
The other big issue is decision-making. Because we only raid one night a week (theoretically for 3 hours, though it's gone up to 5 and, on really good nights, dropped to 2), it's extremely important that no time is wasted. I always feel like I have a stopwatch ticking during raids, and I hate having to decide how long to persevere on an encounter before giving up due to time constraints. If we stop too early, people might feel dissatisfied, especially those on their mains who've never seen the boss die; also, it makes all the time we spent wiping feel rather wasted. If we push too late, people also get dissatisfied, for obvious reasons.
So far, I've always pushed until we got the encounter down. There's some grumbling when that happens, but the fact that we DO get the encounters down goes a long way towards appeasement, I think. Unfortunately, I can't rely on that happening all the time; eventually we're going to come up against a fight that we just aren't ready for, or we'll have a really off night where things just don't click. I don't want to push people past their endurance levels.
I have to find a way to deal with that. I also have to decide which heroic encounter to work on next and when to start working on it in a way that ensures maximum efficiency, and I realize these are very basic raid leader tasks, but /I don't want the responsibility for them/; there's always the constant worry in the back of my mind that I made the wrong choice and screwed everyone else over, that people aren't happy, that the raid is going badly because of my mistakes.
I'm fond of everyone in the group, and I don't want to let them down -- I believe they do enjoy the runs overall -- but I also don't want WoW to feel more like a job than my actual job, which it kind of does at this point. Please help?
Thanks very much,
Stressed
Hi, Stressed. Thank you for writing this. I think it gives a great overview of just how stressful raid leading can be -- and keep in mind that raid leaders also have to perform at a high level while they're keeping on eye on everyone else's performance.
Focus on positives
I have one word of advice for you: Relax.
I'm going to touch on some other points, but I think the main thing you need to do is stop worrying so much. Your raid is doing great on progression. It doesn't sound like you're in danger of losing anyone. And from what I can tell, people seem to respect you, even if they might disagree with you now and then. You need to look at all those positives and consider yourself lucky.
Other raid leaders are dealing with slow progression, constant turnover, players who won't listen to them, rivals who want to replace them, you name it -- in addition to the other problems you've had.
All things considered, you're doing great and your raid is doing great. Pat yourself on the back and try to focus on those positives next time you start stressing about what-ifs and second-guessing yourself.
And that goes for every raid leader out there: You guys are all doing your best, and sometimes something is going to go wrong anyway. That's OK. It's impossible to keep everyone happy 100% of the time. Just flat-out impossible. If that is your goal, you'll be disappointed every time.
Decisions, decisions
Sure, there are plenty to be made, but you don't have to shoulder the burden on your own. For example, if you don't want the task of deciding which bosses to do, that's an easy fix: Have your raiders vote on the bosses they want to hit up every week.
If you think a heroic boss is taking too long and you want to switch to normal before time runs out, poll the group and see how people feel. Ask if anyone needs the loot from normal mode. You don't have to make these choices in a vacuum and accept all the blame if the outcome is undesirable.
One change that might help you with decision-making is to set a specific raid duration and stick to it. You say your raids can go for anywhere between two and five hours. That's a pretty big gap.
If you set a fixed length, no one can complain that you kept them too late. Also, it's easier for everyone to plan their day around the raid and to stay mentally focused since they know exactly when it will end. Finally, it helps to keep people moving, running back from wipes, clearing trash quickly, and so on when they know they only have so much time to work with.
Ah, loot drama
There's really nothing else like it, is there? Unfortunately, there will always be drama with a rolling system. Even the friendliest, most generous guild will eventually run into a situation where someone gets upset about loot when RNG is involved.
With a rolling system, you can approach it in one of two ways. You either try to assign loot evenly despite the RNG through a series of arguments and/or negotiations. Or you just let everyone roll on the stuff they want and everyone agrees not to make a fuss about it. Neither approach tends to work out perfectly in the long run. Someone always refuses to negotiate. Someone always makes a fuss.
I like your idea of keeping a public record. That way people can't make ridiculous claims about how many items someone has won or how many nights they've been screwed out of loot.
Part of the problem with rolling is that players feel so helpless. There's absolutely nothing they can do about poor rolls, so they get frustrated and lash out.
A points-based system puts the control in the players' hands. Point totals are numbers that you can't argue with, and no one can game the system as long as you use silent bids. If you make your points generous (100 per night or so) compared to a minimum bid (1), you won't see much loot go to waste.
Plus you can hand out points for stuff like showing up on time, to make sure your one-night-per-week run goes off when it's supposed to. With a fixed duration, you want to start on time.
It may be overkill to use a system like that for a 10-player alt run. I think it really comes down to how you feel about the seriousness of the loot issue. If you think it's a big problem, then you might want to consider changing the system to something more rigid.
Hang in there, Stressed! Try not to take everything so seriously, recognize the accomplishments you and your raid have achieved, and make some tweaks to remove some of the more stressful elements from your plate -- you'll be much happier logging in that way.
/salute
Filed under: Officers' Quarters (Guild Leadership)






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
dontiknowit Sep 12th 2011 2:12PM
Ugh! I totally know what you mean. My group isn't in the Firelands just yet but we are getting close. I currently have the MS/OS rolls happening and thank god only 1 loot issue when I was a noob Raid Leader. But yes, I am getting to the point of implementing some sort of loot thing as well. The more we progress, the better the gear, the more problems I see in the future.
It is difficult to be Raid Leader, even though I have done it for a few months now, I still get nervous about calls I make, get whispers about everything all the time, and yet still have to focus on what my toon is supposed to be doing, be the morale booster and the drill sargeant.
I think you are doing great from your letter, I like to read the forums on the Armory for Raid/Guild Leadership as there are quite a few good articles and people have lots of great responses in there.
Hang in there fellow Raid Leader, this too shall pass!
/salute
Finnicks Sep 12th 2011 2:16PM
SuicideKings.
This is what we use for our 10-man. Main spec items use the list, offspec is rolled for. Much simpler than points, and just as fair. It also has the advantage of keeping loot distribution equal over multiple weeks, as the list persists, as opposed to most rolling rules where it's a "1 piece per night" deal.
http://www.csiundercity.com/?page_id=16
http://kahluamod.com/ksk/
Just have your raiders "roll into the list" the first time, and after that you're gravy.
Hal Sep 12th 2011 2:32PM
We do the same thing, but do be careful about off-spec rolls. In my raid, for example, we only have one plate DPS but 4 people who want plate OS pieces (1 warrior tank, 1 pally tank, 2 pally healers). Rolling for OS works fine until somebody hasn't seen a OS upgrade in a while, even if it's someone who only uses the OS for solo play.
Shoryl Sep 12th 2011 4:46PM
When I was working on potentially putting together a raid a while ago, I had decided to go with Suicide Kings with a couple of twists:
1. Everyone got "bumped up" a spot for being on time. That meant that whoever was on top of the list had to be on time just like everyone else, or they might lose their top spot.
2. There was a MS and an OS list. Everyone who had an off spec made a second roll for their OS gear. That helps tremendously, in that people know when they're eligible for an OS item.
3. If no one wants to take a small upgrade item because they want to retain their place on the list, there can be a roll-off for the item. However, an individual can only take one roll off per night (otherwise they have to Suicide), and if someone only takes roll-offs some number of nights/items in a row, they automatically get suicided at the beginning of the next raid.
Another thing you can do is consider moving the loot responsibilities to someone other than yourself. As many folks have mentioned, and you've learned, raid leading is a lot of work. If the loot stress isn't yours (or isn't yours alone), it helps a lot.
Bouks Sep 12th 2011 4:51PM
^ This. Our guild went from a DKP system to SuicideKings when BC launched, and so much of the gear drama went away. The folks who were holding out for that one perfect piece quickly landed near the top of the list and would get it when it finally dropped; the folks who needed multiple upgrades would be near the bottom so it was little or no loss to them to grab them, and the stress levels just plummeted.
Later, we tweaked it to run one SK list for tier and a second SK list for gear, which prevented the need to hoard your spot for that tier token and shard possibly-useful gear in the process.
SK works because if two or more raiders are competing for the same type of gear, no one can win all the rolls (or worse, lose them all). Once someone wins a piece, everyone else has priority until they get something too. It evens out very quickly and is really easy for the RL to run - there are addons to help out.
Treason Sep 12th 2011 4:52PM
SK is deeply flawed (as is DKP or any cost based system) if it doesn't have a /roll for mainspec players before going to offspec.
This scenario happens all the time otherwise:
Boss 1 drops sword which is a slight upgrade for mainspec for a single character.
He passes to not lose position in the list, as the next boss drops something that's really good.
Item which could go to his mainspec goes into someone offspec (or more commonly) is sharded.
So your loot system there just happened to make someone take an upgrade they should have.
So you should drop the round robin causing part of your system (the list) or allow an open mainspec roll before dropping to offspec/sharding that doesn't effect the list.
Finnicks Sep 12th 2011 5:32PM
@Treason
My raid solves that with our "No Position Hoarding" rule (it's there on our guild website if you read it).
Basically, it says that if someone drops, and it's an upgrade for you, but you refuse to bid on it because you're "saving your spot" for that "cool weapon" you've been wanting, well too bad, suck it up. We're a team, and this is a team effort, and it's in the TEAM'S best interest if you get the upgrade.
I force bid you, you get the item, and you suicide anyway. Plus you lose some of my respect because you're being a selfish, loot-whoring berk.
Pyromelter Sep 12th 2011 7:57PM
SK was the first thing I thought of when it comes to this type of thing. With a 10man raid, it would be really easy to set up. No need to go through all the hubbub that Shoryl set up. SK for main spec needs, /roll for anyone else who wants it where it won't be sharded. Position hoarding is a necessary evil of SK; however, in a 10-man raid, you wouldn't really need to hoard that much, since most of the time there won't be a huge amount of loot competition.
Didax Sep 12th 2011 8:22PM
Position hoarding is not an issue (or at least not as big of an issue) with Double SK lists.
With Double SK (DSK), everyone is on the list twice, and thus everyone "hoards" their top position to wait for the uber-awesome-upgrade-of-awesome, and will use their low bid position on the more minor upgrades.
Bids for MS are resolved before OS is entertained. Only stuff that gets sharded are items that noone can use.
Botono Sep 12th 2011 2:19PM
Use Suicide Kings for a 10-man with a steady roster. You don't have to keep track of points, and no one can win loot back-to-back without everyone ahead of them passing on it.
A quick explanation:
At the start of the system, everyone /rolls. Players are sorted by their roll. This is your initial Suicide Kings list.
When loot drops, people higher on the list get the item. Then they are moved to the bottom of the list, and it rotates like that forever. It is quick and easy and you can track it with pen and paper (although there are some addons out there that will do it as well).
Treason Sep 12th 2011 4:53PM
There are nasty problems with SK as it is discourages the taking of small upgrades. You *have* to do a mainspec /roll for items before passing down to offspec/sharding.
Botono Sep 12th 2011 6:20PM
I wouldn't call discouraging small upgrades a nasty problem, but YMMV. In my view, it takes the middle ground between having to manage a full DKP system and doing MS/OS rolls. No system is perfect, but SK helps to even out loot distribution and gives you a solid system to refer to when people get uptight about loot.
furrama Sep 12th 2011 7:31PM
Back in BC our guild used SK. It was alright, but I remember passing on a lot of little upgrades that really could have helped, but I was always holding out for a big one.
I was incredibly behind my friends in content and wasn't allowed to go to SSC or anything for a long time because I just had the worst luck with drops, no matter what I ran. My husband's character, which was just as old as mine, got to go to everything because he actually got drops and they needed the chain heals. I ran Kara and Gruul's Lair so many times that it wasn't funny, months and months of horrible waiting. And it wasn't fun, because the guild leader and his wife (rl friends) tended to ignore me in game, and never wanted to do anything with me outside of having me help them gear up their other members so that they could personally progress. But I always showed up, and there was always a pugger or two, (and SK sucks for pugs, who were told that there was no way that they were ever getting gear unless no one else wanted it).
I eventually got to go to SSC once and the Eye, (when they couldn't pug anyone better), and I had been on top of SK for so long. I was waiting for my... (shoes? I could have sworn it was shoes, but wowhead says that they don't drop off trash. Must have been the bracers.) Well, my memory says it was the Star-Strider Boots that dropped off of random trash, (which again, http://www.wowwiki.com/The_Eye_loot says can't happen, but that's what I remember). Anyway, my long awaited upgrade dropped... and I didn't get to use my ticket. Since whatever dropped off of random trash it was regarded as useless and got auto rolled, which I lost. (This was common in Kara, as all the random purples were pretty much junk, but this was still a very sizable upgrade and the only one I had seen in a loooong time).
I tried to talk to the guild leader and his wife but they said "What's done is done". After I proved that it had been my only hope of getting out of that one green I had been wearing forever in that entire instance, they said, "Well, what do you want me to do about it?" And I was pretty much barred from raiding after that because they had two better geared hunters that they wanted to focus on more.
I haven't raided since.
(TL;DR) Random rolls. I like those best. That or a loot master that is using a large spreadsheet to make sure the group as a whole is getting upgraded optimally so that they can move on together. And beware of fair weather friends.
Didax Sep 12th 2011 2:36PM
Here's another comment recommending Suicide Kings for your situation.
One thing I would add to the above commenters' suggestions: to avoid your raid group's tendency to let gear get sharded to avoid using their roll, try Double Suicide Kings.
It works the exact same way as Suicide Kings, but everyone is on the list twice, so that if it's a minor upgrade for them, they will bid their low position, and if it's a major upgrade they'd be willing to give up their higher position.
When I first implemented SK, we had a lot of people refusing to bid for the lesser upgrades. Haven't had any problems with Double SK though.
------------------
For the initial roll onto Double SK, just reverse the list and add it to the bottom (with only three raiders for example's sake):
1: Highest roller
2: Second highest roller
3: Lowest roller
4: Lowest toller
5: Second Highest roller
6: Highest roller.
eel5pe Sep 12th 2011 3:03PM
wow, i really really like this system didax. we have enough class diversity in our raids that loot is rarely an issue, but this could really help things out.
Treason Sep 12th 2011 4:56PM
Innnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnteresting.
We couldn't figure out how to deal with the small upgrade sharding issue, so did this:http://www.wowwiki.com/Dual_Token_Loot_System to make it not happen
Tesha Sep 12th 2011 5:11PM
Suicide Kings has one MAJOR advantage; it's extremely easy to administrate. It has some other characteristics that you may perceive as advantageous or disadvantageous depending on your raid group and it's goals. SK does not discriminate between players with high attendance and those with low attendance. Furthermore, players near the bottom of an SK list actually have more leverage over the majority of loot, since the same item will cost them relatively less than the players at the top of the SK list. The Double SK list that Didax is proposing would seem to minimize that last characteristic while keeping the system easy to administrate.
Before choosing a loot system, I'd encourage folks to read up on the subject and pick based on their groups needs and goals. ALL loot systems have advantages & disadvantages. There's some good general info on wowwiki & wikipedia:
http://www.wowwiki.com/Loot_system
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loot_System
steve Sep 12th 2011 3:00PM
Hey Stressed, for all of those things that you think you might be messing up, what would the result be if you didn't decide? There are 9 people who are showing up consistently for your raid and having steady progression and earning loot WAY better than if they were pugging.
Are your decisions better than no decisions at all? Yes, yes they are.
TendoMentis Sep 12th 2011 3:26PM
Wow, what a reverse in perspective for me...to dread going home from work because of WoW...
WoW is my pressure-release after work. Well, that and beer.
I feel for a raid leader who has so much piled on him/her in game as to actually DREAD logging in.
jaqtuhp Sep 12th 2011 3:46PM
I'm new to raid leading and inexperienced at guild leading, and I've recently had my own run-in with the not-so-good times of RL'ing/GM'ing.
For loots, I'm sticking to the practice of "Main-Spec rolls come first if it's an upgrade for you. Otherwise, it goes to Greed roll for ALL. The End.". It's how I like to keep it because I have little desire to get into long discussions about "Well, it's a bigger upgrade for the mage than the spriest so the mage should get it, screw the ROLL.". No, the spriest rolled a 97 and it's an upgrade for them. Their rolling MS is valid and they won, case closed. Also with my rules, it is implied that you can MS roll on anything that drops so long as it really is for your MS and it's an upgrade. Sorry if cloth pieces keep dropping, guess the clothies are getting geared tonight! And if the spriest won every cloth roll tonight, SORRY AGAIN, CHARLIE! Look at it this way, they're geared out now so they can't MS roll on squat next week. Hooray! :D
And as for people "not getting along", I've wondered about the same thing myself. We're not progression, but we're progressing. Our guild and raid team is laid back. We show up for raid times, do it for 2 hours, then we're done until next week. We had a couple people join us for awhile and it seemed they were pretty good spirited and would be good for the group as a whole. Turns out they have little patience when things don't go the way they want them to and it turns into "I'm not raiding with that person this week", and then end up /gquitting on raid night because I wouldn't /gkick the person they didnt' like. OMG get over yourself.
So aside from that, we're drama-free and like to stay that way. It's a game. We're here to play and kill stuff and have fun. If where you're at and what you're doing isn't FUN and fulfilling, you need to GTFO. PERIOD. This could mean leaving, or removing the source of the problem. Either change your environment, or find a more suitable one. It's really not that complicated, is it?...