Breakfast Topic: How do you dodge certain guildmates for heroics?
by Matthew Krotzer 
Sep 14th 2011 at 8:00AM
Heroics. They're a staple of nearly every player's in-game routine. Whether gearing up your first level 85 toon or simply grinding away toward the weekly valor and justice point caps, we all need to find a group.
In The Burning Crusade and even early Wrath of the Lich King, the trade channel or other in-game communication channels were used to advertise your needs. Looking for healer, looking for tank -- or even, in the good old days, looking for CC. Players would develop a reputation on their server as being good or bad players, and this could vastly impact the ease with which they were able to find other players willing to partner with them. In many ways, this was a good thing. It encouraged players to be civil to one another and to learn their roles, if they wanted to find groups regularly.
However, that is the past. The random Dungeon Finder, for good or for ill, has drastically changed the way we go about finding groups for instances. Viewed by many as a deep pit full of gogogo DPSers, healers with nonexistent mana pools, and tanks who are using DPS specs, the era of being known for your skill is over. Or is it?
Many people say, "I don't do PUGs. I run with my guildmates." This is fine, but it can lead to problems. For example, what do you do when you have a guildmate who is enthusiastic about running heroics, but you know that player is just going to make your run take twice as long or ruin the enjoyment with their inept ways?
Do you whisper skilled guildmates individually? Do you simply resort to the random Dungeon Finder instead? Is it right to exclude not just another player but a guildmate in the first place?
Filed under: Breakfast Topics, Guest Posts
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 5)
Revnah Sep 14th 2011 8:14AM
If it's a guildmate, they'll be gently taught the tactics and given advice on how to improve their gameplay. And then there's no need to avoid them anymore! I have been taught that way, why would I deny the same courtesy to others?
Tfish92 Sep 14th 2011 8:31AM
That's how it works whenever I come across the problem in my guild. Unless they are just so terrible/arrogant that they ignore all of our advice and continue to do low dps, take unnecessary damage while tanking, or simply do the encounters wrong consistently. Then it's just a simply case of telling them sorry, but you're bad.
Mortenebra Sep 14th 2011 9:21AM
While I agree with you wholeheartedly-- and I try my best to employ this attitude constantly-- there are some people out there who take advantage of the "I'm the not-so-great guildie so you have to take it easy on me and I'm totally absolved of any blame or responsibility" attitude.
For example... I remember once when we went back to do Naxx10 in late Wrath. There were some newer 80s and thought, "Hey, getting them some epic gear would be fun, no?" Despite explaining the fights and all that sort of stuff in great detail, one person would continuously screw up. Find a list of "Things not to do in a raid" and he did them all. Each time we tried explaining to him why he died or why we wiped, he'd reply, "Oh, I'm just a noob so I don't know :)" Yes, with a smiley. The first couple of times, we thought he was genuinely saying he was new to the game and the sort, and generally being good-natured about it... After the tenth time, however, we knew we were getting our chain yanked.
The idea is if you say, "Yes, I want to go on this run," I expect some iota, some modicum of effort. When you screw up or things go wrong, and constructive criticism is blithely dismissed or met with vitriol, that's when I have to tell myself that I simply cannot run with this person anymore and will refuse to do so in the future.
I don't want to have to black-list guildies... I feel like that's not what a guild should be about, and if you start black-listing people, you're already causing divisions in the ranks. I'm all for teaching people and showing them the ropes but, God help me, I won't abide being mocked for my efforts. And I certainly won't risk my virtual life for someone who thinks they can reap the rewards while sitting back, washing their hands of any responsibility for their actions or lack of actions.
I know, sorry: That's not what your post was about but as someone who tries her damnedest to "include all guildies" in activities and has been forced to exclude people from groups... I've just come to recognize that some people don't play well in a team environment, and there's nothing I can do about it, as much as I'd like to change it.
Malozing Sep 14th 2011 9:27AM
/clap
This should be the first step. Then there are the ones that think they know it all, so they will not listen to you or the rest of the guildies in the group. With that I just whisper people who might be interested in a heroic.
Revnah Sep 14th 2011 9:28AM
"The idea is if you say, "Yes, I want to go on this run," I expect some iota, some modicum of effort."
You nailed it there, and I completely agree. I guess I'm lucky that I'm in a guild that screens new applicants so we are mostly lucky and get people who already know how to play OR bring a serious desire to learn. That's what my comment was based on. If they're not like that, someone will plain tell them they need to shape up or they won't be invited to group runs in the future. Somehow, these problems tend to resolve themselves and people either gquit or improve... Like I said, I guess I'm lucky there :-)
"I feel like that's not what a guild should be about"
That's just it. I dislike the whole "avoiding" strategy, this is a guild after all and people are supposed to be in it together for a reason - because they enjoy each other's company and enjoy doing stuff together.
Fel Sep 14th 2011 9:37AM
Unfortunately some individuals are just beyond help. We have a mage who prefers to "use all abilities because it is more fun" regardless of spec. If he is playing as fire and feels like casting frostbolt, then that's what he casts. It doesn't matter if a lack of dps or CC causes us to wipe repeatedly because he is having fun. So at this point he isn't invited to raids or heroics... It just isn't fair to the 4/9 other people to have to suffer all night because someone is unwilling to adapt for the good of the group. There are plenty of single player games out there he can be playing.
evoxpisces Sep 14th 2011 7:42PM
I definitely have to agree with you on this one. Let's face it...we were all noobs at one point. And even now, I know I'm not the greatest player. I think I'm an above average healer but my DPS is average at best. However DPS is what I enjoy doing the most. And my tanking skills are abysmal. Either way though I would much more appreciate someone giving me helpful tips on how to improve my role than to criticize and judge. And although I pretty much know what I'm doing now, I didn't get that way from being avoided and insulted. I was lucky enough to have plenty of helpful people in dungeon runs. I've played the game for years but for whatever reason I avoided doing dungeons for the bulk of my play time. I just didn't find it fun I guess. But when dungeon finder rolled around I started getting into dungeons and really started enjoying them, even if I was handed the occasional dud party. The point is whether I'm running a dungeon with people I know, guildmates or people from the RDF, I would treat them as I want to be treated: with courtesy and helpful advice. I acknowledge not everyone is even close to being the same skill level but I'd rather be responsible for teaching one newbie something useful than to drive a whole crowd of noobs away.
sckeener Sep 14th 2011 11:16AM
I've done the whole help the guildie be a better player and unless they really want to be a better player, it isn't happening.
I had a few guildies that were great as long as they were concentrating. The only time they concentrated was when I was paying attention to their rotation. Maybe it would have become drilled into their heads eventually, but I can't be there for them all the time. I certainly can't be calling out their rotation in the middle of every fight in a heroic or worse a raid. If it takes a month for some people to develop a habit and the player doesn't practice daily, a patch is going to come out before the player has learned their spec.
Heck I had one player whose only job in the raid was to hit one button and then click on a spike. We wiped for 2 hours because they couldn't find the spike.
Some people are great to be around but are not the best choices to bring to a heroic or raid.
Den Sep 14th 2011 1:56PM
I'm honesty with my guildies. If they're having a problem, I let them know what it is and try to help them fix it. If they're not very good, I half jokingly repeatedly point it out if no one else mentions it. The only time this is a problem is when someone somehow got through all our quality checks, and this tends to act as the final test: if they can't handle criticism (not "you suck," but "When she takes a deep breath, stop casting and run to the wall or you'll die"), and they want to group with the guild, they won't have people to play with.
arcady Sep 14th 2011 3:36PM
Not every dog can learn that new trick though.
I was finding guild runs would take about 2 hours -longer- for a 'normal' than a PUG heroic would - even with better gear...
You can only tell some healers that you can just stand in one spot so many times. If you know with near 99% certainty that getting say, H:Lost City of Tolvir means 10+ wipes on the croc boss because the healer will stand as far from melee as possible and not move when targetted, and even run away when the tank closes to get the adds... and has been told to heal in melee range 1000+ times, and the tank even leveled a healer just to show the healer how to do it, and then did so, and yet still...
When you can PUG tank H:Stonecore with your new 85 tank that's in greens and cheating PvP gear to get iLevel 333, doing the shatter boss in one run... but you take you iLevel 360 healer there with the guild and spend all night on it because 'certain people' won't get out of shatter... and this is a regular event... and you've got DBM spamming them, vent spamming them, and chat spamming them, and still...
When people refuse to get decursive, and yet also refuse to set up some other option to know about debuff removal... and it means you wipe over and over on content you do in one quick pull in a PUG...
Some people escape into guild grouping because they can't handle the harshness of criticism in PUGs. That's legit. PUGs are nasty and rude.
But some people -ALSO- stay in the guild runs because they -refuse- to learn from any form of criticism - even simple mild stuff like a list of guides posted on the guild website.
Those second set of people can ruin an entire guild's ability to have good fun together.
Myself, I do tend to prefer PUG tanking and PUG healing over guild content. But I miss the social aspect of guild content.
However the loot pinata is too good to pass up. I like mini-pets and I -HATE- farming / questing with a passion. PUG tanking 3-5 heroics in a 2-3 hour sessions after getting home from work I can come out with 200-500g -after- repairs (its very arbitrary how much I get - random rolls and group tolerance for letting people stop and loot). So I don't need to farm; which I hate doing.
If I queue with -anyone- guildie, friend, or random stranger - I lose about 40-80g per run right there, and I lose a chance at a mini-pet or mount (loot pinata has given me 3 very rare pets and 2 dragon mounts across my 6 tanks and 4 healers - mostly only that low because my toons all have about 80 pets already, so not much left for me to get). 60g is not much, but it adds up unusually fast given how quickly you can PUG tank these things. And if the reward is -not- a minipet or mount (most of the time its not), its usually some potion I can auction for another 20g. 80g * 3 runs a night; 240g for -NOT- going with the guild; and that's a slow night.
So I tend to log in, sit around for a few minutes in chat, and then quietly queue up and get my loot pinata until somebody says 'hey lets do a heroic.' ;)
Valis Sep 14th 2011 4:43PM
Well said and true.
I think sometimes in MMOs people forget that the person on the other end is a real human being....a person with thoughts, feeling, and may see the game in a different way.
You catch more flies with honey on bread...bile in the face.
I think sometimes people forget that, int he end, it's just a game.
kristylkg2001 Sep 14th 2011 8:15AM
I have this problem in my guild. We are very large, on an RP server. Most of the guildies will only run with guild members. You can spend hours in a heroic that with most PuGs run a half hour. Wipe after wipe on easy bosses. When you try to encourage them to get out and PuG, see what it's like outside the guild, they refuse. So yeah, a few of us have made kind of a heroic "team" and we stick together to get our weekly cap. Not only has this large guild created a "safety blanket" for these people, but it's caused them to be sorely lacking in skills. I personally prefer to PuG, even with poor tanks and healers that can easily be kicked vs. running with guildmates.
Kittens Sep 14th 2011 10:04AM
Hehe this sounds familiar ;) I love my guildies and friends, and if they need me to heal for whatever 9 out of 10 times I will come, even if I made completely different plans for that time. I can also be endlessly patient and always try to be helpful with tacts and tips. But I also know that doing heroics with some of them can take three to four times as long as it takes with a PuG.. So when I want my VP I prefer to run alone or whisper one or two friends that are very competent. After I cap my VP I can of course still help out on the potentially slower runs :)
But as you say, people refusing to do PuGs are not doing themselves any favors. They might have experienced some very bad PuGs with antisocial players, which has scared them out of LFD. But now, they are running with exactly the same people who make exactly the same mistakes and run exactly the same tactics every time. They won't learn anything new from that. PuGs *can* be bad, yes. But the reality is, most PuGs are actually quite good in my experience (as a healer who PuGged as the sole form of leveling from 10-85, and who still PuGs on a daily basis). You will learn SO MUCH from playing with all different kinds of people who might all do things a little differently! And guess what? If you encounter the classic 'bad PuG'.. you will often learn even more. Because it forces you to deal with new situations, it forces you to become better at what you do and work with the group. And if you meet people being utter rude a**holes in a PuG? You can just kick them, don't let it get to you. I personally delight in not even kicking but trying to make those kind of people make themselves look like fools, hehe.
I so wish some of the anti-PuG crowd would see all that, gather their courage and jump in.. it is really not so bad as they think it is :)
Eirik Sep 14th 2011 6:54PM
Not as bad as they think it is? Perhaps it has changed, with the gear you get from justice points blowing you past the iLevel 333 gear you get from "normal" instances.
Pugs are fine, if you are skilled, and at ilevel 359 or better.
But the combination of highly geared DPS who refuse to do CC, with marginal tanks in said iLevel 333 gear, is highly explosive. For myself, I admit to being unwilling to start my healer (iLevel 329) in on heroics because I have occasion in normal instances where I go OOM. And if I do so on normal, what's going to happen in heroics, eh?
Nina Katarina Sep 14th 2011 8:16AM
When I was still running randoms on my tank, I'd go about 50/50 pure random/with guildies. It depended on how social I wanted to be. Sometimes after a tough day at work I get into a mood where I actually want a quick silent-but-deadly run, which I'm more likely to get with total strangers. You can tell by the time you finish the first boss and are past deserter debuff stage if it's going to be a total failpug.
Fletcher Sep 14th 2011 8:19AM
I've stopped running heroics. There's nothing I want which could entice me back into the Zuls.
Well, maybe a "Kill Night Elf Leadership" Red Button of Doom. But apart from that, nothing.
Gendou Sep 14th 2011 9:20AM
That's largely where I'm at, tragically. Even with competent guildies, the Zul heroics take too long to run for what they offer.
I know that I need to be capping valor each week, but honestly, I just can't be arsed to do it.
Call it Heroic Burnout or Laziness or whatever, but this tier of 'current' heroics (ZA and ZG) are just painful.
I remember back running Wrath heroics to get Frost badges every day, and we would cheer when we would get Azjol-Nerub (a quick and easy heroic) and boo when we would get something like Occulus or Halls of Reflection (few bosses, but artificially speed limited via odd mechanics).
Having Zul'Aman and Zul'Gurub as the only 'current' heroics feels like getting Halls of Reflection for every single queue.
I'm looking forward to new dungeons in 4.3, that's for sure.
babywhiz Sep 14th 2011 9:20AM
We started doing 90 min raids that run prior to the main raid. We only do BWD/Throne/BoT. It's kinda a relaxing way to get the mains VP, and we take some alts just so not everything is DE'd.
My first alt now has everything from VP that she needs, plus her raid is downing more Firelands bosses, so I will probably switch to my 3rd alt that is just now starting to step into Firelands (but, she only runs once a week...so we have been slow in that raid gearing up).
It really is a nice change of pace. We get people their titles, and gear up alts, and kick back in mumble just chatting it up.
noel mcleod Sep 14th 2011 9:34AM
I don't run heroics. Two tanks and a dps that are all geared, but I don't run heroics.
BTW, I loved Oculus! And Violet Hold, three bosses, TIMED, you knew that it was likely a short run OR a wipe and abandon (Xevoxx, or something like that .. hated that boss).
What was good about Wrath was that a GOOD tank could make up for stupid DPS, now one bad dps wipes you. I'm thinking Blackrock caverns - get the mechanic for the beams right or wipe, GB with Throngus and the Faceless Corruptors, (not hard, but waaaay too easy to wipe on someone else's stupidity).
I have not seen any of the epic fights where you - for example - take Krick down the last 10% with just you and the healer and just you for the last 5% and everyone cheers at the end.
The heroic strategies are too close to raiding, which is a different game (or should be).
Plainswander Sep 14th 2011 9:36AM
zul'eternals are one of the big reasons Im not really all that concerned about fixing my computer so I can play WoW again.
Those places are downright PAINFULLY long for PuG'gin. The selection of heroics in Cata is just really irritating. You either have the release dungeons, which are mindlessly quick, but really stale at this point, or the Zul'Annoyances, which are long, and viciously unforgiving of PuGish shenanigans (they're GREAT for guild runs though).