Ready Check: How to handle raid loot systems

There is one simple truth that we must all face: Loot is the most important factor of WoW. We all play for different reasons -- some for friends, others for the thrill of downing new content, and some to be the best. With all of these things, the end result is the same. Run dungeons, you get gear. Deal in PVP, you get gear. Raid? You end up with gear. Gear is unavoidable. It is always the end result of any activity that you perform. Every game has its end, to a story, to a plot -- and WoW's end is gear.
Unlike single-player games wherein loot control is not an issue, WoW deals with multiple people and limited gear. There's only so much stuff to go around, with far more people wanting to get it. To facilitate who gets what, players have relied upon constructed systems of loot distribution. While the way in which loot is handled will vary from guild to guild, there are several standardized systems that are fairly popular. This week, we'll be taking a look at why loot systems are important and the things that you can do in order to minimize loot-related issues within your raid.
The uncomfortable truth
Once again, make no mistake in thinking that loot is unimportant or that loot isn't a reason for why people play this game. On the surface, it may not be the primary reason that any player gets into WoW, in fact I doubt few people play exclusively for loot, but loot is the most tangible reward in this game. Humans, by nature, enjoy such things. We like what we can quantify with numbers.
Ask yourself this: If you were entirely unable to get any loot at all, how long would you continue to play WoW or play with the same raiding group? I mean all loot; if anyone in the raid wanted an item, they'd get it over you, whether they wanted it for a primary spec, a secondary spec, or just for fun. If an alt or new trial happened to be in the raid, they'd get anything they wanted before you. If the raid needs Maelstrom Crystals for enchants, then any potential gear you might use would be sharded instead of going to you. You'd get absolutely nothing. How long do you think it would take before this situation would frustrate you? A month? Two months?
Whether we like to admit it or not, we need to have loot. Of all the cliché things that people proclaim, not caring about loot in WoW is perhaps one of the biggest. I don't think I've ever meet a single soul who has claimed to care about loot, yet I've still come across many who get upset over the way loot in handled in a variety of situations. As I said, loot is the tangible reward of WoW. If players only played for the thrill of killing new bosses, then they would clear all the content once and never go back to it again. After all, once you've managed to kill Ragnaros, what more is there to do? Until the next raid comes out, you've beaten the game; there are no new challenges for you to complete.
So why continue raiding? Why do people go back to the same raid for months at a time if they've managed to clear it? Loot.
Here's another adventure for you to think about. On a standard raid night, you, as a raid leader, proclaim that all of you are going to go raid Icecrown Citadel instead of Firelands that night. How many of your raid members would be perfectly happy with that choice? The next raid night, you go to Serpentshrine Cavern. How long would your raid be willing to continue to run raids where they don't get any tangible loot rewards from it? Now, transmogrification does throw a little bit of a wrench into this plan, so, all loot would have to be left to rot, of course. You're not raiding for loot -- after all, that's not why any of you raid. Your group raids because it enjoys each other's company. You're friends.
So how long would your raid group stay together running old content that has no loot reward involved?
Just as waling against the same boss for months without any progress will break apart a raid, so too will the complete and utter lack of loot. When there's nothing else new to offer, loot is all this game has.
We don't care about loot
The classic mistake that a majority of new raiding guilds or groups make is in how they plan on handling loot. A good number of raid groups start either entirely as a group of friends or mostly as a group of friends. They may not be real-life friends, but they've probably played together for a long time, know each rather well, and generally get along. None of them play for loot, so how they plan on distributing loot is just a non-issue for them. They're likely to go with an open roll or a loot council system, both of which are entirely legitimate in their own right. Things might go smoothly at first, but chances are, everything will come crashing down.
Raiding, and raid leading, changes people. They're new pressure that didn't exist before. People quit for various reasons, new members come into the raid group, old members leave, and even friends always have their own personal dramas with each other. Having a poor or dysfunctional loot system is going to create another level of frustration to any rift that forms within the group.
This is why loot distribution systems are so important. No matter how close you think your raid group is, no matter how little you all care about loot, you absolutely must have a good loot system. "Good" is such an ambiguous word, particularly in this situation. What makes a loot system good? There are actually two different factors which we use in order to judge how good a loot system is.

The first of these factors is equality. In a perfect game with a perfect loot system, every player will get gear at a 1:1 ratio, which is to say that for every piece of loot that one person in the raid gets, every other person in the raid also gets a piece of loot. This belief is rather basic. It's fair. People like fair. More things should be fair. Thus, creating an equitable loot system should be a no-brainer. No one is against the ideal -- so what's the issue?
Sadly, there is an issue -- and that issue is RNG. While any given raid group wants to distribute loot evenly, loot doesn't drop evenly. Say you have a caster dagger and five people want it. Your raid runs off open rolls, so the five of them toss their dice, and the balance druid wins. No harm, no foul. Next boss, a pair of leather caster gloves drops. You don't have a restoration druid, only a balance druid, so he's the only one who can make use of this item; he gets that as well. Your systems is now uneven. The druid has gained more loot than the rest of the raid. Now, say the druid is super-lucky. The next raiding night, a necklace drops that multiple casters once, they all roll, and the druid wins again. Further imbalances.
No matter how much you try, no system is going to be perfectly equal to all raid members at all times. This is due to the fact that loot drops aren't equal to all raid members at all times. The best that you can hope for is inducing artificial equality into the system. The shorter the equality, the better. Short equality? Yes, the faster your loot system drives itself closer to a 1:1 ratio, the better it is considered to be. Eventually, any loot system will reach the 1:1 ratio because eventually everything will drop for every raid member. How close you keep that ratio in the short term dictates the equality of a system.
Loot as a reward
The last judgment we use on systems is one of reward. Loot is the reward for playing this game, and many players feel as though they deserve this reward. Reward is interesting because it totally defies the concept of equality in a loot system; the two are essentially opposites. Instead of awarding loot to players based on the raw notion of what's fair within the raid, you instead have to consider what is fair based on other factors.
If our above druid raids every single night, is always on time, always prepared, yet only gains as much loot as a warlock who shows up one or twice a week depending on what he feels like, might be late, and usually has to ask others for supplies, the druid might feel slighted that he only gets as much loot as the warlock. This druid is putting in more effort than the warlock; therefore, it's natural that he feels he should have a larger reward for doing so.
While retaining the ability of equality, loot systems also have to cater to devotion or reward. The players who contribute the most gain the most. Failure to do this results in frustration for players who feel that their efforts are being valued by the raid as a whole. After all, why should they continue to put in as much time into the game as they do if they could get the exact same reward from the game and only put in half the amount of time that they do currently? There isn't a reason.
Balancing equality and reward
How good a loot system is becomes judged by these two concepts. Any loot system you use needs to give equal consideration to all members while similarly rewarding those players who contribute the most to the success of the raid group. Favoring either side too strongly leads to conflict and issues. Loot may not be the primary reason that any player in your raid plays, but it is always a reason, whether they want to admit to it or not. We as humans play for the rewards. Having a weak or defective loot system is just asking to create additional conflict in a raid that could easily be avoided.
Join us next week as we talk about some of the standard loot systems found in WoW, how they function, their pros and cons, and how they fare on the two scales of judgment.
Ready Check shares all the strategies and inside information you need to take your raiding to the next level. Be sure to look up our strategy guides to Cataclysm's 5-man instances, and for more healer-centric advice, visit Raid Rx.
Filed under: Raiding, Ready Check (Raiding)






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)
Zoopercat Sep 16th 2011 6:21PM
Hey there Tyler,
I'm one of the people behind Team Robot, and we totally 'get' this post. We actually just launched a raid loot tool last week on our iPhone and Android apps for now, while we expand it to the website later. We made this tool because we were always trying to figure out how *much* of an upgrade it was for other people in the raid, or a quick way to tell who an item was BiS for (and not just taking their word for it).
So we made an add-on for our app that is totally fair based on gear needs. Hey, Robots don't get clouded with emotions like us humans, right? The tool will show that a helm might be a 2% upgrade for mage A and a 1% upgrade for mage B. Now what you do with that info is up to you. Mage B might be reliable, does better DPs, and the other reasons you outlined in your article, so maybe Mage B should get the loot. But would Mage B get the loot if it was a 10% upgrade for Mage A? Who knows, it's up to you to decide.
In short, we wanted to provide the FACTS about gear, so raiders can make more informed decisions.
If anyone tries out the app, we're always looking for feedback :)
Mork Sep 16th 2011 7:41PM
That's awesome, rather amusing timing for me personally, as just last raid night we were using Mr.Robot for that exact purpose. Had some caster item drop (I dunno I'm melee) and there was a brief concern over who it should go to, so one of our members loaded up both the casters in question and pointed out that it was slightly better for one then the other. Greatest part with that was there was no drama over it as it was perfectly logical.
Keep up the good work!
niko Sep 16th 2011 7:48PM
Love me some mr robot :)
Sweet new tool too; we'll be trying it out tonight as a matter of fact!
MarkA Sep 16th 2011 8:22PM
That's great! Now how about a web page to do it too? I don't have an iPad, iPhone, or Android.
Keep up the great work, I totally love Ask Mr. Robot!
Arrohon Sep 16th 2011 10:22PM
"while we expand it to the website later"
Trust me, I've tweeted them about it ;)
kaosgrace Sep 20th 2011 3:40AM
This sounds amazing. Is there any chance you have an addon dev on your team who can write an addon to 'hook' this app?
Tom Sep 16th 2011 6:23PM
"that issue is RNG."
The random number generator is fine. The issue is randomness.
avahnel Sep 17th 2011 6:07PM
The RNG has bit me in the ass in 4.2. I have been raiding consistently with a good guild (who is 7/7) and I have gotten one piece of gear all raid tier. ONE PIECE. I would get gear that dropped for me, for reasons above, and I have an ilvl 370 because of valor points and the like. However, I have been getting very discouraged, and have considered quitting playing just because of this issue.
Stilhelm Sep 17th 2011 3:15PM
Not entirely. Loot drops are anything but random in the raids I've run. So far, we've killed Staghelm 5 times, 4 times out of the 5 the warrior/hunter/shaman token has dropped (only 1 token in 10-man raids), the leather boots have dropped at least twice, and the caster leather legs have dropped at least 3 times (even the feral has them).
Other bosses are similar, we get the same two pieces almost every week, and it's a rare thing to actually get the piece someone went to that boss to get. I'd say out of the 10-15 items a boss might drop, we reliably see 3 or 4, and almost never see the rest. For example, we've killed Shannox every week since FL was released, and we've seen the cloth boots several times, the mail helm a few times, and the leather gloves and shoulders (actually sold a few of the shoulders since they're BoE). Wowhead.com lists the Skullstealer Greataxe and a caster ring as having the highest drop rates and yet we've never seen either.
So I don't think the random number generator is really all that random. I've been raiding since the beginning of wrath, and for the most part the bosses will drop the same small subset of its loot table in the raids I'm running (generally with the same group of people) every week. A good random number generator wouldn't have you reliably getting the same drop 60% of the time, there would be a more *random* distribution. Warcraft's random number generator seems to be seeded with the account IDs of the people in the raid.
Either that, or the loot generator checks to see if it's possible to drop items that cannot be used and weights those much higher. A logical reason for that would be to force people to run the content more times to get the loot they may want.
When I started running T11 raids in cata, there was another hunter in our 10-man as well. Since no ranged weapons were dropping, I ran arenas with a friend until I got enough points to get the PVP bow (easy in 4.0, much more difficult in 4.2). No ranged weapon dropped in our T11 raids until at least a month after 4.1 was released, because the other hunter had also tried ZG every day for a few weeks before she finally got the crossbow from Valiona.
As for the loot system our raid uses, it's basically set to group loot, roll Need if you need it and pass otherwise. It works well because we have to shard at least half the loot after the first month anyway.
mark Sep 16th 2011 8:32PM
this is why i LOVE epgp - partly the fairness of it on "effort/gear" and that even casuall raiders can beat regular ones
but mostly for the unabusbility of it
all systems are abusable - but the key is how
dkp ive seen guilds having 2-3 on silly amounts - meaning they get there best items all the time and dont bother with mid ones - thus staying top
epgp abuse on the other hand...
if your GP is high then % decay is worth doing
the only way to abuse EPGP is to randomly get a lot of gear then NOT RAID
so the only way to get more gear per raid is to raid less and get less gear.....
PERFECT
Didax Sep 16th 2011 8:46PM
There are a wide variety of loot systems available and an even wider variety of raid groups that have to choose one.
The best thing a raid leader can do is pick a system that seems to fit the culture of the raid group, and try it out. You have to take into account everyone in the raid group. You may have 9 or 24 people that are more than willing to pass to avoid being a loot hog, but if that one other guy isn't willing to pass, a simple /roll-and-don't-be-greedy system might not work.
My advice to someone trying to find a loot system:
Assess the culture of the raid group. Are you more casual/laid-back? Are you more focused on upgrading the raid equally to make content go by faster? Or are you more interested in rewarding participation and contribution?
There are loot systems that fit all these profiles; /roll systems, Suicide Kings, Loot Council, DKP, EP/GP, etc. Just do your research and be flexible in the early weeks/months.
If you plan on making a big change, I suggest waiting until a new tier of gear is released.
Austin Sep 16th 2011 9:29PM
My guild uses suicide kings. We're all friends in RL, but we use the system because we're fine with people missing the occasional raid. We're raiding to have a good time with each other, and loot definitely comes second to having a good time with each other. It's a great system, especially when you have a separate list for tier tokens.
DarkWalker Sep 16th 2011 10:11PM
One thing I really want to see is how loot will be handled in the LFR. I really hope it's either some improved need before greed system, or else it's done as individual loot bags like seasonal bosses.
BTW:
- One of the things I hate the most in WoW is looting in groups. I really dislike the need for loot rolls, and the stress it puts on groups. I have seen whole raids break apart over a single ninja loot. Anything that removed the need to ever roll for loot against raidmates again would be really welcome for me.
- I don't exactly care about loot per see. Not even for appearance; the last piece of tier gear I actually liked the looks was back in Vanilla. I only care about gear due to the fact it's a requirement to do high end content, but I would actually be happier if there was no gear evolution in raids whatsoever - say, if the pieces from the heroics/rep grinds were BIS during the whole expansion, and raid gear was just fancier sidegrades.
- The issue of just one person not getting gear in a raid is not exactly one of gear, but of being treated fairly. If a group treats me like dirt, I don't want to be around them, gear or no gear. In fact, if I was badly treated, I wouldn't hang around even if every last piece of loot went to me.
- Doing old content is not an ideal proposition for another reason: due to higher levels / stat inflation, most of them lack any kind of challenge. I most likely wouldn't want to go back to old raids even if the gear drops were the same quality.
- Content should be done because it's fun. Sincerely, if the only reason I'm doing something is for the gear, I stop and go do some other thing, perhaps even play another game. If I find I don't have fun getting the gear, and I need the gear to open further play, I leave permanently.
- One of the main reason I'm really waiting for GW2 is the complete lack of loot rolls. All loot is individual, and most/all pieces can also be gotten by tokens (thus making said pieces of gear achievable even if the RNG conspires against the player).
Liyly Sep 17th 2011 12:21AM
Well written and thoughtful article. I was one of those players who thought that loot didn't matter, but you're right - it does to a certain extent.
Thanks for the insights.
Silvery-Corgan Sep 17th 2011 1:32AM
What is the location of the first picture? The one with the blue circle like in the universe or something?
Chilleia Sep 17th 2011 1:45AM
I think that's the Algalon raid encounter, in Ulduar
Jabadabadana Sep 17th 2011 1:45AM
The Algalon fight in Ulduar...
at least what it looks like when you're not someone like me running minimal graphics and still getting 2fps on that fight.